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k04 hybrid machining/clearence tolorences info/help, fuel pressures & water meth?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by boostjunkie, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Hello folks, great forum you have here with some great info on offer!! Im after a little info that i cant seem to find to help finish building my k04 hybrid up for my engine build, im using the rs6 2018 turbine and 2283 comp wheel, im gonna port and flow the hotside inlet to 45mm and the wastegate to 28/30mm (same as bill did to wellys) and use the bigger k03s penny, from what i've gleaned so far from various threads, the comp housing inlet is gonna be machined out to 45.5mm?? and the hot side is gonna be machined so that it has a 0.3mm clearence around the turbine wheel which is unclipped??, im not sure if these specs are correct/optimum so any input would be greatly appreciated? also i was thinking of using the forge k04 adjustable actuator? what do people think/would you change?

    the spec of the engine/car so far are as follows, was origionaly bam with egt sensor in turbo:-

    agu block & pistons with I.E rods, new oil pump & pick up, gaskets & seals etc,
    AEB head with standard bam vvti sedtup, cometic head gasket & ARP stud & nut kit,
    relentlesss v3 manifold with 45mm ported collector and port matched to cylinder head (copper plate gaskets),
    AGU inlet with 10mm phonelic heat spacer,
    gennesis 550's & 4bar reg or may use fsi adjustable unit (3-5bar) with pressure gauge? views/input on this would be welcomed?
    wallbro 225lph intank pump and bosch 044 external with hi flow check valve & ibiza cupra filter,
    welly cooler & 2.5" alloy pipe work through out & alloy map sensor pipe,
    low temp 82 degree thermostat and fan switch,
    pinned/dowled crank pulley and kevlar belt,
    relentless 3" down pipe & de-cat with non resonated 2.75" full miltek,
    badger 5 3" tip with 3" CAI down to filter located in lower bumper corner,
    good quality silicone hoses through out,forge 007p with blue spring relocated next to TB,
    spec-r catch can, n249 delete,
    1 range cooler ngk iridium plugs gapped to 0.7mm, ball & spring mbc to cap boost if necessary,
    AEM wide band and boost gauge in car,

    And i think thats about it? The only things im not sure about are the machining sizes/tolorences to be done to the hot and cold side housings? the best actuator to use? should i use the 4bar, 3bar or the FSI adjustable fuel pressure regulator? and am i gonna need water meth?

    This was origionaly going to go into my LCR but i've just bought an s3 to put it all in and am gonna put the s3's bam engine back into the leon for the missis!!

    when i've got it all back together im thinking take it to bill@badger5 or niki@r-tech for the mapping?? any help, ideas,info or comments would be welcomed??? cheers in advance,Rob....
    p.s. great forum...
    #1
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  3. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    good list there, ive got some 550 genises injectors for mine :)

    Wmi is needed to make good safe power

    Ive heard the 4 bar reg is not needed, but speak to Prawn, Bill, Jardo or Niki at R tech to confirm dude :)
    #2
  4. v5 tt
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    v5 tt Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Looks like you got all the right things to make a good setup what i would say though is personally
    i would choose a higher spec injector rather then use the need for uprated fuel pumps or
    increasing the fpr ....550cc should do the job but i will be running a hybrid with some deka 630cc,s
    myself plenty of head room with stock pump and fpr...
    #3
  5. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    All good specs, particularly the hot-side work. We're experimenting with this as well. The 0.3mm chamber clearance is actually aggressively tight. It'll lend you optimized spool, but if you allow a little more clearance, your top end will be stronger.
    #4
  6. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Wouldn't bother replacing the intank with a walbro... if you think you need a new intank just replace it with an OEM item... 4bar FPR + 550's is a little overkill on a hybrid and the EV14's have a decent spray/atomisation as std anyway... no real need for the 4bar tbh.... I know that Doug has been experimenting with higher fuel pressures though but I think we are talking much higher than 4bar + boost here and not sure how the 550 bosch/genesis injectors fair with pintle lock up...

    Don't use those crappy copper plate things that relentless supply... infact don't use any of the gaskets they supply period... use OE ones for the head/mani, mani/turbo and turbo/DP

    The AGU inlet faces the opposite way to the S3 one... you DON'T need a blue spring in the 007p... a green spring and a shim is all you need... cometic head gasket is a pointless expense IMO... as are ARP head bolts at your performance level... OE headgasket and bolts are fine...

    WMI is a good thing to have on K04's as they do get hot :)

    <tuffty/>
    #5
  7. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    OP, where did you buy your parts for the hybrid build? Or does anybody else have knowledge of reputable places to buy turbo parts? Many thanks
    #6
  8. phil miller
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    phil miller Active Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Beachbuggy is the man :) very good price for rebuilding my Ko4, it wouldnt have cost much more for me to have gone hybrid, but 4 months ago i wasnt gonna go OTT with the build
    #7
  9. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    very true mate but can't justify tye expense, 650 odd notes, i can however buy the parts and i have a very good machine shop near by:) finding the parts isnt that easy though and i'd feel rude asking Dan lol
    #8
  10. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    ...K04 adjustable actuator?... just use a 0.8bar or 1bar max actuator... not a Forge one though as the travel isn't good and it sticks..

    No need for an MBC to cap boost if you take it to someone that knows how to map hybrids properly like Badger 5 or R-Tech... (obviously I would recommend Bill :))

    <tuffty/>
    #9
  11. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Sounds like a fantastic spec, very similar to mine :)

    to think tuffty has pretty much covered it all, bit definitely add WMI to that list. Leave the DV in the stock location, the cold side kit is a waste and effects fuelling on gear chnges.
    Also, most people at 300bhp+ are now running NGK bkr7e copper plugs, the copper plugs dissipate heat better than iridium which helps with EGT's.

    aside from that, I see no reason why that spec shouldn't crack 340bhp
    #10
  12. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Random question for prawn...are you still only running on an oem in tank fuel pump??
    #11
  13. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Ssssssshhhhhhhhhhh!

    yes superK. God knows how it's working but it is. Got a walbro waiting for me down with Ben at parsons, but ill pick that up when we go down for some other 'fun' in the near future.
    #12
  14. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    I assume you mean 5018 for rs6 turbine?

    Its a good choice of parts and currently the largest you can run, would agree with Doug 0.3mm is quite tight. I've done something similar on one spec'd hybrid which was basically a zero clearance spec, wasn't actually zero but incredibly tight. I've also run an over clearanced housing which performed very differently, spoiled about 750 rpm later far less aggressive boost but top end flow was vastly improved and egt lower but to be honest a dog to drive compared with what I actually run.

    The 2283 compressor is 46.3mm @ the inducer so your 46.5 is too small, suggest you re-look at your measurements.

    there is also absolutely no need to run a k03 penny wastegate on the k04! Port the housing correctly and even leaving the port size stock you will be fine.
    #13
  15. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    If the wastegate channel has been ported, it's a good idea to up-size the "penny" as well. This will protect against it getting hung up on the larger opening.
    #14
  16. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    I think you've missed Dan's point there slightly Doug, he's saying that the wastegate hole itself doesn't need to be increased much, and mine isn't a great deal larger I don't think. It's the route to the wastegate that benefits the most from porting.

    I'm not sure what the clearance on mine is (Did you measure it when you rebuilt it Dan?), but I do have a 7 degree clip, which although done to prevent surge, will actually aid top end flow a little also.

    How much of that is contributing to my 350+bhp I'm not sure.
    #15
  17. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    wow. I thought you did. Thats doing bloody well fo sho.
    #16
  18. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 20, 2013]
    Bill doesn't open borg-warner wastegates much but opens the throat more as this is restrictive... chinese hotsides (as used on Sam B's hybrid and some CR ones) have a smaller hole than the OE hotsides... this needs opening up... you do have to be careful as Doug is right about the penny getting caught on the opened wastegate port... the penny flops about due to play where its fixed to the arm... hwen it 'flops' it can catch the hole as it closes if you open it up too much... its not just about trying to match the port to the penny...

    <tuffty/>
    #17
  19. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 21, 2013]
    as said.... flow the port to the wg, and open it up only a little if its a BW hotside.. 24mm approx.. the path to the wg on bw hotsides is small, so opening up helps it work properly without resorting to hogging it out to a large bore (for all the reasons said about wg penny hanging up on the hole.)
    #18
  20. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 23, 2013]
    only just managed to get time to get back on the computer for more than five mins, thanks for the replies chaps, some really usefull comments that will be taken onboard....a few typos on my part, i did mean the 5018 rs6 turbine and not the 2018 as i posted and 46.5mm was what i had written down in my notes for the compressor housing inlet I.D. as i know the billlet 2283 wheel is 46.3mm, should have checked my notes instead of typing from memory....Doh..... glad i did'ent buy one of those forge actuators as that sounds like it would have been more money wasted, i'll stick with a one bar max item probrably from a garett, alsoi'll look into getting water meth kit sorted out, what you guys using???

    i'll swap the plugs for the copper core ones as they certainly sound like a better bet for heat disssipation, i was only gonna use the larger w/g penny as i have one lay around doin nowt and had previously read about the hang up issue some people had, although i am using a genuine bw turbine housing so i'll concentrate on making throat flow more efficiantly rather than just the size factor alone..........i know the walbro intank is a bit over kill with the 044 but the o.e. pump has done 115k and the last year has been at 4bar so i thought it a good idea to do it at the same time and the walbro was the cheaper option with no sacrifice in quality???
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
    #19
  21. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 23, 2013]
    It not that the walbro is overkill its more that I have read that the modification required to fit them can be unreliable... just seems an unnecessary risk IMO... especially as you are fitting an inline pump too... I would rather know the intank is going to be ok than worry about it tbh...

    <tuffty/>
    #20
  22. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    Really need to get more time on the net! work is killin me at the mo but its financing the build:icon_thumright:.. fitting that walbro intank was no bother really it went in a doddle and i cant really see how it can be unreliable due to fitment if done correctly as it's almost a direct fit for the o.e one? the cometic head gasket was an impulse buy that i wish i would'ent have bothered with and saved my self the extra £40 it cost but its done now?? and i thought the ARP stud and nut kit was good value, i got it to the door for £102 all in and its reusable unlike the o.e. stretch bolts so i wont need to buy em again!! at the end of the day i was just tryin to use the best quality parts i could get for my money!! in hind sight maybe wasted some cash but we'll see??

    water meth is gonna be the next out lay without a doubt to reign those temps in a bit,what kits you folks using? seen coolingmist kits on fleabay for £126 anygood? not really sure what sort of setup am gonna need?
    #21
  23. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    ARP head bolts are a sound investment if you are a tinkerer...:beerchug:

    Ive got an AEM water meth kit but sadly i cannot recommend due to a faulty check valve, with no solution their end, ive had to buy a devils own solenoid to cap the siphonage *sp....
    And at £350 you should not have the hassle.....
    #22
  24. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    i was just looking at the AEM stuff as i have their wideband setup in allready but @£350 its a bit pricey ,and i agree at that price they should sort it defo..........
    #23
  25. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    see how it goes with low fuel levels re pickup etc
    thats the normal reported issues with them as in tank
    #24
  26. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    I hope the intank pump pick up will be ok, even at low fuel levels as it picks up at exactly the same place and height as the o.e. one it's litterally just swapped position using the o.e. carrier/sender so i cant see any difference?? At least i hope..LOL:unsure:
    #25
  27. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    just because you can't physically see any difference doesn't mean its not an issue dude... its a problem thats been discussed on some of the US forums before.. I recall reading about it many moons ago before deciding to just fit an inline pump to compliment the intank...

    Can see the appeal of an 'uprated' intank pump but tbh as there were reported issues I personally decided to stick to the OEM one as this is tried and tested... fuelling is too important for that little bit of doubt...

    <tuffty/>
    #26
  28. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 26, 2013]
    That was the exact reason I went with it mate, I think some sort of fuel pressure monitoring gauge/system is on the cards then?Or sell it on flea bay and stick with the oem set up! Like you say it's to important to chance, and runnin lean and bad mapping has already cost me a fortune! I'm out in the van at the minute so am pushed for time but just off the top of your head was it just pick up at low fuel level issues? I've not read owt about it tbh?
    #27
  29. Chlippo
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    Chlippo Member

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    [Jan 27, 2013]
    looks like it will be a nice build! Can't wait to see some results here.

    By the way, what size of silicone hoses do we need to simplify or change the current little hoses around the engine? is it 5mm for all of it?
    #28
  30. boostjunkie
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    boostjunkie Member

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    [Jan 27, 2013]
    I've used 5mm some 3mm and some 10mm I.D., the 10mm was more for the purge valve and the brake vacuum though?
    #29

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