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K04-15 turbo

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by jsc5, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. jsc5
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    jsc5 New Member

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    [Oct 27, 2005]
    Has anybody fitted a K04-15 turbo to a 1.8T with the standard ECU?

    My turbo seized as a result of the oil feed pipe getting blocked and I thought might as well fit the K04 while I have to replace the turbo.

    I do intend to get it remapped soon but I'm hoping it'll run ok in the meantime.
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  3. welshdragon
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    welshdragon Member

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    Josef,

    Yes, I have mate. If you do a search on this B5 section in the forum you will find a massive thread on my K04-15 upgrade and associated problems with overboost etc.

    Basiclaly I had a chipped car and slapped a K04-15 straight on without changing the software. The physical instalation was fine and no problems, however the turbo overboosted like mad particularily in the higher gears.

    I eventualy had the car remaped of which the drivability is fine however the end power results still a little suspect. I say this due to the fact that my car produced a massive difference on two different set of rollers (AmD & Supperchips) with the same remap. So the figures on my signature are the higher values produced on AmDs rollers last year.

    Funny enough I sold my old K03 to someone who had exactly the same problem as you. Though a the K04-15 is a better turbo he had my old one for a snip at £100. So if you want to splap on the K04-15 then the car will drive perfectly well aslong as you on tickle her and dont slam her into high revs or load high boost situations in the higher gears.

    I have a boost gauge on mine and spent 3 weeks driving to the gauge insuring that I didnt go over about 8psi boost as it would run away to around the 22psi (from what i can remember) of which could potentialy cause the engine/turbo to blow. Hope that helps.
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  4. Soupie69uk
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    Soupie69uk Owner

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    I have a K04 on mine (K03s remap) and its alright. Get a bit of surging between 2.5k and 4 k revs but it pulls like mad now.

    Have a boost gauge but have not gotten round to fitting it yet.

    Will get remap hopefully in the next couple of months and i have had my car running like this since around june.
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  5. madkebab
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    madkebab Member

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    Josef - I have a brand new K04 for sale in the Trading section. If your interested then drop me a PM.
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  6. jsc5
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    jsc5 New Member

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    Thanks for the advice.

    I spoke to a few of the tuning companies this morning and all recommended sticking with the K03 on the early cars. Bearing in mind it'll cost me around £200 less I think I'll follow their advice.
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  7. Soupie69uk
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    Soupie69uk Owner

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    Y did they recommend that?
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  8. jsc5
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    jsc5 New Member

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    Seems that the K04 isn't easy to map on the early models with throttle cable rather than fly-by-wire and can end up being jerky and less driveable.

    I'll most likely just go for the Jabbasport remap, Milltek exhaust and a dump valve.
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  9. madkebab
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    madkebab Member

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    [Oct 28, 2005]
    Your right mate I didnt notice you had a 96. These turbos are certainly easier to setup on the later models as the early ECU's are not that intelligent. Dont think you can go far wrong with Jabbasport. Good luck.
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  10. Rallyman
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    Rallyman LPG Abuser & have VAGCOM

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    [Nov 2, 2005]
    Ok, i have a a4 avant 1.8t Q sport 2000 W reg , Its not FBW, reading this thread how do I know what turbo I have, it is a small one, cos it spools up quickly though I feel that it runs outa puff reaching 5krpm. what would be good for this car, and would the K04-15 be a bit more laggy?
    Cheers
    Michael
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  11. madkebab
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    madkebab Member

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    [Nov 2, 2005]
    Michael, the K04 would be ideal for your car. It is still a relatively small turbo but has different characteristics to the K03. With the K04 and a remap you should be looking at about 240bhp. Unlike other upgrades such as the GT28RS you do not have to change the manifold or downpipes/cat etc etc. Here is an extract from the Greedspeed website that might help explain things better. If you are interested in the turbo send me a PM

    "On other turbocharged engines, it would seem the most obvious thing to do would be to install a bigger turbo. However, there has not been a bigger turbo for the 1.8T until very recently. Enthusiasts looking to push their 1.8T beyond this 200 hp limit had two options. First, they could develop a custom turbo system, complete with manifold, mounting flange and all other accessories needed to install a bigger turbo. Second, they could simply modify the stock K03, making it a K03 Sport. Suffice it to say most people chose the latter route.

    The K03 Sport does flow more air than the standard K03, and is capable of holding boost at the 15 lb level. Unfortunately, the K03 Sport was a stopgap measure. Modifying the stock K03 worked, but reliability was a factor for some people. The thin shaft remained, so balancing the bigger wheels of the K03 Sport was even more important. It was also difficult, and as mentioned before, the slightest imperfection could cause the shaft to wobble and the impeller blades to impact the sides of the turbo--or worse--at higher boost levels. There just wasn't a lot of room to play with in the K03. To top it all off, excessive heat was still a factor. This was exacerbated in the K03 Sport because its greater capacity begged higher boost levels, which means even more heat.

    Then, along came the Audi TT. This car uses the same 1.8T engine as the Passat, but with a whopping 225 hp. It does this through the use of the K04. A bigger version of the K03, the K04 has bigger wheels than the K03 or even the K03 Sport. Subsequently, it can flow more air at the same boost level, without any reliability questions. The K04 is so much better than the K03 Sport in fact that virtually every tuner offering a turbo upgrade for the 1.8T has abandoned the K03 Sport in favor of the K04."
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  12. gc48067
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    gc48067 Member

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    [Nov 2, 2005]
    I have to disagree with this - if you have a blown Turbo the K04-15 is great as long as it is does not cost too much more - I really think you are making a mistake if you go for the K04 when looking for a larger turbo conversion.

    There is hardly any difference in size between the K04 and K03 and you are spending a fair wedge (eg MTM charge about £4k for this conversion, about the same as everyone else) - for this you get a whopping 20bhp over the K03 plus exhaust and cat conversion.

    Having had a K03, then exhaust then K04 then GT28RS I would strongly advise against the K04, certainly on my car (1999 Quattro) the K04 was dissapointing to say the least - less kick than the K03 and only marginally faster in real world terms.

    If you check out the following site 'ATPTurbo' you will see what I mean, look at the size of the intake on the K04 (same size on the K03) vs the GT28RS there is simply no competition and, from the install on my car (which is not an eliminator) the spool up time is pretty close, you just keep going with the GT28RS up to 300+bhp.

    Basically - having been through the loop I rue the day I bothered fitting a K04 - unless one falls into your lap it is, in my opinion, a waste of money.

    Don't take this as a slag off of anyone who has a K04, after all I went down that route myself I just cannot recommend the outlay for what is a minimal perceived benefit; presented with an already blown K03 the picture may be different.

    Hope this helps someone, somewhere and look forward to other opinions...

    Cheers,


    Greg
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  13. madkebab
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    madkebab Member

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    [Nov 3, 2005]
    Greg I can understand your opinions of the K04 based on your own experiences. However the K04 is still a very popular turbo upgrade for the A4 in the USA and they have a much larger market than we do here..
    The reason for this is because of the cost in comparison to power and torque gain. The K04 turbo is in the region of £500-£600, a decent custom remap will cost you another £500. Add to this an adjustable FPR and some large injectors (approximately another £200) and you should be looking in the region of 250bhp (as informed by MRC developments at Audi International). So all of this costs in the region of £1500. Even if you only make 220-230bhp then this is still a very cheap and reliable upgrade.
    The GT28RS conversion such as your own is an entirely different upgrade. This is certaintly the way to go if you want the greatest power gains from the 1.8T but it comes with a price.
    In a recent thread on Audizine they did a comparison on a K04'd car and a GT28RS and up to 100mph there wasnt hardly anything between the two cars. After that it was a one horse race.
    Ultimately I think it depends on what you are after from the upgrade, how much you are willing to spend and making sure you use a tuner who knows what they are doing with the K04.
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  14. docurley
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    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 3, 2005]
    Although I'm probably going the GT28RS route the K04 can prove to be quite formidable on an day to day use as the Turbo will spin up more quicker putting you on boost much faster than the GT28RS.

    As for building the kits DIY is probably best then have it installed by a pro or fit it your self and have it mapped after.

    Now what I want to know Greg is what’s the difference between the eliminator kit and a GT28RS DIY kit as I thought they both use the same turbo?
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  15. gc48067
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    [Nov 3, 2005]
    madkebab - basically I agree with you with the single exception that if you already have a working K03 I think you will see little or no gain from a K04 - I have a guy from MTM come over from Germany and mess with my car for almost a day - the result 240bhp and almost exactly the same torque as the K03. Also - and this is an honest opinion not me trying to talk my car up - the difference in performance between the K04 and the GT28RS is huge. I was also at Audi Driver International and found I was getting all four wheels spinning out of the chicanes in second gear; unless my mapping was way off with the K04 I couldn't see a K04 equipped car being as fast (unless it has a decent driver at the wheel of course /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

    Doc - I would LOVE to answer your question but I know nothing of the eliminator other than what I have read from ATP. The weak point of the standard setup was always the manifold which would crack if you went much past the 250 mark. Now surely it cracks due to heat as opposed to pressure so ATP's claim that the flow rate of the turbo was at fault is believable but right now I don't know of any Eliminator equipped A4's.

    The difference is:

    The same turbo is used - the turbo has sections to it, ATP have junked the section that bolts onto the T25 based exhaust manifold and replaced it with a bit that plugs onto the 3 bolt KKK manifold the other components remain the same.

    A custom fit uses a different exhaust manifold which is set up for a T25 mounted Turbo (four bolts and a squareish hole that the turbo bolts onto). The eliminator is supposed to bolt into prettly much the same place as the standard turbo using the three bolt KKK manifold (ie no new manifold required). As before ATP state that the manifold failures they investigated were effectively cured by a larger flowing turbo (the gasses don't hang around as long so can't transfer as much heat to the manifold).

    The eliminator still uses the 3 inch (ie much much bigger than the K03/4) intake so I don't see how it could be installed with the standard airbox but guess all would not be lost if you removed that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Hope this helps,


    Greg
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  16. welshdragon
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    welshdragon Member

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    [Nov 4, 2005]
    Guys,

    Some interesting debates here on the values of the K04-15 upgrade and I have to say that both GregC and madkabab both have good points. I would say that the end of the day it comes down to personalities and what performance someone would be willing to accept for the relevant cost.

    The K04-15 upgrade is an attractive option in some senses due to the fact that its a direct bolt on job and therefore relatively cheap. I found that the K04 does give a little more torque througout the range, more puff at the top end and with no increase in lag. However depending on your perception of an increase of 20-30 bhp may depend on whether you think it was worth bothering with.

    For me, well to be honest I am going down the route of wishing I hadnt either bothered or just gone for something like the GT28RS. However some maybe happy with the 230-240 bhp mark. As I have stated before, my car set up with the K04 is about the same pace as a standard S3, nothing special but quick enough for the majority of people.

    However for me driving the likes of an M3 & M5 has made me realise how my car is isnt particularily super fast and therefore either wishing I had either a big turbo upgrade or a new car.

    One concern I have with the big turbo is its impact on the reliability of other componts & therefore costs spiraling out of control unlike the K04 which is fit and forget (another attractive quality to the K04 option). By this I mean the likes of the internals, clutch, fuel pump etc all running at limits beyond their design concept.

    Greg, how much did the total upgrade actually cost you including remap? And can you provide a full list of the new configuration of your car? i.e. injectors, intercooler, boost levels etc.
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  17. gc48067
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    gc48067 Member

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    [Nov 4, 2005]
    The total upgrade cost about £5k - compared to what it would have cost to change the car this is in my opinion a great price.

    The list of bits, over and above the ATP GT28RS turbo, manifold and downpipe was:

    Semi Synthetic 10w40 Engine Oil
    Consumables
    T25/28 Exhaust Outlet Gasket
    Antifreeze / Coolant
    Turbo Exhaust Matching
    Audi A4 Front Mount Intercooler
    Bosch 4/350 Inj 0280559326318 14ohm
    3 Inch Dump Valve T-piece
    Eibach A4 1.8TQ B5 Pro Kit Springs
    RS4 Fuel Pump (Genuine Audi)
    SFS 52mm i/d Blue Pipe
    VAG Oil Filter
    SFS 52mm Swaged Alloy hose connector
    Audi 1.8t GT28RS Map (custom) .

    Obviously you don't need the Eibach springs but they do work well (also selling some on ebay if anyone fancies some).

    I have bought some other stuff to clean up the induction piping, mainly silicone hose, connectors, an Air Filter (to replace the once that ATP sent).

    I would NOT recommend this setup without uprated brakes which can add to the cost.

    Greg
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  18. welshdragon
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    welshdragon Member

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    [Nov 7, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The total upgrade cost about £5k - compared to what it would have cost to change the car this is in my opinion a great price.

    The list of bits, over and above the ATP GT28RS turbo, manifold and downpipe was:

    Semi Synthetic 10w40 Engine Oil
    Consumables
    T25/28 Exhaust Outlet Gasket
    Antifreeze / Coolant
    Turbo Exhaust Matching
    Audi A4 Front Mount Intercooler
    Bosch 4/350 Inj 0280559326318 14ohm
    3 Inch Dump Valve T-piece
    Eibach A4 1.8TQ B5 Pro Kit Springs
    RS4 Fuel Pump (Genuine Audi)
    SFS 52mm i/d Blue Pipe
    VAG Oil Filter
    SFS 52mm Swaged Alloy hose connector
    Audi 1.8t GT28RS Map (custom) .

    Obviously you don't need the Eibach springs but they do work well (also selling some on ebay if anyone fancies some).

    I have bought some other stuff to clean up the induction piping, mainly silicone hose, connectors, an Air Filter (to replace the once that ATP sent).

    I would NOT recommend this setup without uprated brakes which can add to the cost.

    Greg

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Greg,

    Sorry to be a pain but any chance of answering these for me?

    FMIC:-

    What FMIC have you got?
    What associated pipework was with it?
    What happend to the stock IC & pipework?
    Where did you get it from?

    Air Intake system:-

    What is the configuration of your intake system? I.e. new larger MAF, intake pipework, cone filter etc

    Fuel:-

    Why use the RS4 pump?
    Are the injectors the same physical size? obviously excluding outlet holes etc
    Was a new mounted fuel rail needed?
    BTW I have a set of S3 ones I might be hoping of using.

    Exhaust:-

    Did you opt for a straight through downpipe to replace the cat?

    Software:-

    Who done the remap?
    How much was the remap?
    Although not a direct software question, what boost are you running?

    As you can prob tell I am certainly interested in a similar upgrade myself. Its just a big commitment of money and hastle though so need some more info.
    #17
  19. gc48067
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    gc48067 Member

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    [Nov 7, 2005]
    FMIC:-

    What FMIC have you got?
    Andy C could tell you - it was custom made by someone he contacted as I didn't want to swap the front bumper.

    What associated pipework was with it?
    Basically standard aluminium bends and silicone hose put together to channel the air around (did a LOT of work on this myself to sort out the flow and get the MAF to work properly.

    What happend to the stock IC & pipework? Pipework - put into a bin somewhere near where Andy lives. IC sold on Ebay for a whacking greaat £5.

    Where did you get it from?
    AndyC

    Air Intake system:-

    What is the configuration of your intake system? I.e. new larger MAF, intake pipework, cone filter etc
    Cone Filter, MAF installed into a tube supplied by AMD (original MAF, 3" tube). Intake pipework was a b1tch - originally sitting down the front and not giving the MAF enough room to work but, after a lot of blood sweat and tears moved to a decent location (I would really have to show you).

    Fuel:-

    Why use the RS4 pump?
    Cause underfuelling would cause the engine to overheat and fail - the standard fuel pump is not up to the job of supplying enough petrol to keep this thing going at higher RPM reliably.

    Are the injectors the same physical size?
    I believe so.
    obviously excluding outlet holes etc
    Was a new mounted fuel rail needed?
    No - but this depends on what injectors you end up going for (whoever does the mapping for your car would probably have a big input into this).
    BTW I have a set of S3 ones I might be hoping of using. - again would be better than the standard ones but I don't have a clue regarding the flow rates of these injectors (read some of the US sites and you will see how deep guys go into this).

    Exhaust:-

    Did you opt for a straight through downpipe to replace the cat?
    Originally - then replaced with a Hayward and Scott 3" system with a CAT (gained 3HP even with the CAT being put back into the system - they built the whole thing from scratch for the same cost as a Milltek system).

    Software:-

    Who done the remap?
    Don't know but getting it redone by MRC soon.
    How much was the remap?
    £500
    Although not a direct software question, what boost are you running?
    20psi.

    Hope all this helps. If you are not too far from Colchester I am happy to meet up to show you the car - I think we learnt a lot of lessons whilst getting the setup right (even though the mapping does need some attention as mentioned above). AndyC was great and I would recommend him although I believe he is getting busier and busier (and deservedly so).

    Cheers,


    Greg
    #18
  20. welshdragon
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    welshdragon Member

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    [Nov 8, 2005]
    Greg,

    Thanx alot mate for the info. Unfortunately it does seem like a lot of hard work to get a good set up with this turbo of which I gather consisted of a few bespoke bits and pieces. To be honest I am not going to be looking into this seriously until next summer its just that I wanted to try and get as much just incase you left the forum.

    I must say £5k is a few quid for a mod though. If we were talking £2K then mine would be done before christmas. Sorry, to all for digressing on this thread but for all those who have the lust for ever increasing power will realise alot of this info is worth sharing.

    Greg, can i ask what you didnt trade in your car and buy a chipped B5 S4 instead? This is one of my thoughts. Though I have spent so much on the rest of my car I dont really want to change it if I can. Its an easy way of getting 300+ bhp in an A4 with Quattro. Also have you ever actually driven a B5 S4 or even a chipped one at that? If so what are you thoughts on the differences between yours. On the subject of comparissons, have you ever driven an E46 M3? or a E39 M5? and if so how does your car compare for straight line speed?

    Forgive me for the never ending list of questions but you do have what could be considered the 'Holy Grail' of engine configurations for the A4 1.8T range. And some of us just want to know as much as possible about it and if the long pilgrimage was worth it.
    #19
  21. gc48067
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    gc48067 Member

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    [Nov 8, 2005]
    Drove an S4 and it was a great car but I get near 30mpg out of my 1.8, better performance than a standard S4 and the car has near 50/50 weight distribution which makes for a better handling package than the S4 (admittedly only once some mods are performed).

    For me the 1.8 is the way to go for now. If looking for an upgrade would certainly look at an E46 M3, the M5 is great but is a little over spec for what I need.

    Bottom line - my Wife's car is a 5 Series BM which we use as the family car, the A4 is my toy which is great fun - I have had the car for four years, prior to that had a TVR for a year, an Impreza for 6 months, an Integra for 6 months and a Boxster for 8 months - the A4 is the first car I have actually felt like keeping.

    in answer to your question about what I have driven - I have been lucky enough to drive a fair few fast cars, including the whole TVR range, Porches, fast BM's etc - out of the box I think the A4 is quite boring becuase it is set up to be an understeering exec machine but even a few simple mods completely change the character of the car and show what could have been.

    Lastly - an important point for me is the stealth bit - as my car looks like a standard A4 I don't get anyone looking for a race but on the other hand watching the look of shock on a 911 turbo drivers face when a modest A4 was only left behind by a few hundred yards on the sprint from 70 to 140 was wotrth every penny of modifications....

    One of the best things about this forum is the sharing of knowledge - I know I have learnt loads from it - so Josef, sorry if the thread has ended up getting a little hijacked - I hope some of you think about the GT28RS as a result - for me it is about the best A4 mod going.

    Greg
    #20
  22. Rallyman
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    Rallyman LPG Abuser & have VAGCOM

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    [Nov 9, 2005]
    Intersting guys! Thanks for the info!
    Im looking to do some sort of mod to get my cat upto the right side of 200bhp, Something not too draining on the £££ and something that will not upset the car too much as I use it to tow my rallycar Its just that when im not (i.e. every week day!!!) the car doesnt feel too lively, my previous car a Legacy estate turbo seemed happier under full load ....though.....I like the audi on just about everything else! How far would a chip conversion just take it? Though one thing I should mention, the cars coming up to 115k miles anyone played with a car that old? or should I err on the side of caution?? - It is fully stamped up by the stealers!
    Cheers
    Michael
    #21
  23. welshdragon
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    welshdragon Member

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    [Nov 9, 2005]
    Greg,

    I must say you are right in the fact that you can totally transform an A4 1.8TQ from its original state. However even though mine handles so much better than when I purchased the car, it now provides the least feedback of any single car I have ever driven.

    Now I get a combination of some slight underseer and oversteer, and with the car being so neuatral under normal - moderately hard driving its really wierd and unfortunately boring. By this I mean I get hardly no opposite force comming back from the steering wheel when I turn a corner. I turn the steering wheel and the car just seems to turn directly in proportion to the input of the steering wheel of which if I let go of the steering wheel half way through the turn it feels like the steering wheel wouldnt even straighten itself out. Obvisouly not literaly true but thats the type of feedback I seem to be getting.

    Another way to discribe it is that it feels like I am Aquaplanning or just sliding on ice and I have absolutely no idea when the tyres are going to give. I still havent got to that point where they have gone completely as I havent got the guts and i think with such a stiff set up the car will just go dramatically with no indication and with me ending up lying in a ditch somewhere.

    So the point I am trying to make is that although the car will handle extremely well (better than standard S3)if its a fun drive your looking for then pick another car. People have commented of how much the S3 has a lack of feel but believe me my car is much worse. From point to point my car is so much quicker, however I am starting to alomst feel that I have ruined my driving experience. Its getting to the stage where I actually enjoy driving some of the **** hire cars I get from work as at least even though they understeer and roll like mad by comparisson I can actually earn my corners.

    So I am interested in what are you planning on doing to improve the handling? And what your hoping the car will be like to drive. Greg, its a shame that your so far away as it would be great for both of us to have a go in each other cars. Me to see what that beast of a turbo is like and you to see what uprated springs/shocks & front/rear arb's are like.
    #22
  24. docurley
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    docurley Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Nov 9, 2005]
    Greg, start a new thread as this is way of the beaten track and it would be easier to find it at a later date.

    Call it: GT28RS that way it will be an easy find.
    #23

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