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Just driven an RS4..... Bit slow arn't they?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by tobycruse, Feb 19, 2009.

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  1. jonnyc
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    jonnyc Member

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    Lol.. Its a bit of fun, and at the end of the day it is an interesting comparison.. Its nice to see what can be achieved with relatively small amounts of money when tuning these cars..

    And at the end of the day if your really not bothered about speed, then buy a 2.0 TDI A4 and kit it out like an RS4.. Or would that be too 'Max Power'?
  2. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    I bought my car for several reasons and performance was one of them.
    A golf GTi is a capable car - I never read a bad review about them and it's no doubt why VW have managed to launch a MK6 which is basically just external tweans and a better interior.
    The S3 at £27k is fast out of the box, but for under £2500 you can have a 360bhp machine.
    The RS4 was £52k new and again is fast out of the box, but lets be honest, you would expect it to be THE Audi performance car.... yet you can get an S3 to perform nearly as well for £20k less without it coming across as a max power machine.
    Now, be honest, if you had an RS4, you were on a quiet road and you saw an S3, you both start having a play and for love nor money you couldn't shake that S3... sitting on your @rse the whole way.... how would you feel? My guess is you'd feel a little frustrated at the performce of your RS4....

    Just my view and I think that pretty much sums up, to me, what this thread is all about.

    PS... now picture the same scenario, but swap the S3 with a GTi...... you'd be scratching your head calling the dealer asking "what the hell is wrong with my RS4?"

    :p
  3. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    They can, have you not met a BMW owner?:)
  4. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    Paul,

    While i understand competely what you are saying here....engines from VAG group in various cars etc etc etc.

    We are again going off on another tangient, the original post is about the RS4 which is AUDI is it not. The owner has a 8P Tuned S3 hence feeling slow while driving the RS4.

    I'd never say that VW Golf owners are not welcomed to post their opinions, findings and general views here, quite the contrary in fact. People post what they like, i'll add in where i can as we all do from time to time.

    There is no resolution to this debate, RS4 feeling slow etc. What car is faster, feels faster etc.

    I still stand by my point about speed, it's not the be all and end all of any car. It does matter though i'm not stating that what i'm stating is that for me the RS4 is much more than just an engine which can be tuned to go faster. It was built and designed to be an RS model, can't that just "be" enough for people?


    G
  5. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    I'd be a chavvy max power idiot then though wouldn't i!!

    I'm actually not bothered about speed, regardless of what your opinion is -if i am or not. I've owned plenty of faster cars than the S3. I like the S3, which is why i purchased my third one. I bought it because of build quality, looks & asthetics, speed and economy. It's a good all rounder as i keep finding myself saying. I also bought an Audi as i'm sick of seeing many good cars being chavved up and being driven about by idiots.

    The S3 is a fairly expensive car, which again is fairly rare too. One of the main reasons i am on my third.

    If i could afford an RS4 i wouldn't give it a second thought, show me where to sign......unfortunately for me i can't and it kills me when i see one. Always think OMFG that is stunning.

    If you want a fast performance car buy a skyline GTR or something. You'll get a sardine tin with performance and handling which are outstanding.

    You want good performance and excellent build quality you buy an VAG group car. I've had many many golfs, 4 MKII's 3 MKIII's, from the G60 to VR6 highline, love them to bits. I've nothing but praise for the Golf.

    I guess i am slightly "blinkered" to Audi brand but thats because it appeals to me. Call me snobby i really don't care much! :) Simple as.

    G
  6. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Food for thought:

    ...I'd suggest 'The' Audi performance car has a badge that starts with an 'R'...and practicalities aside, is in a whole different league (in my opinion) to a RS4...or ANY S3.

    Although a highly modified S3 could easily be made to stick with one up the quarter mile...would anyone actually suggest that an S3 would be as quick point to pont?

    R8s can be had for RS4 money now...and round and round we go...
  7. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    I won't be disagreeing with any of that, lets face it, it's a V8 Gallardo... has bettered the 997 according to journo's, and it opens up a whole new debate.

    Well specced new TT-RS or 2nd hand R8 both at about £50k?
  8. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    'Tis a different one to throw into the mix Ess Three. I could buy an RS4 and put it on my drive without standing out like a sore thumb. My S3 doesn't attract a glance.
    But if I parked an R8 on my drive in my modest street in my modest suburban area it would attract all sorts of attention.
    I would actually turn down a second half R8 for RS4 money in favour of the RS4 - simply because I would have to buy a new house to go with it.
    TT-RS would never appeal to me - not even for £20k.

    As you say, round and round we go. For me, back to where I started in this thread (post number 3 I think) - I'd take the RS4 over the S3, TT-RS, S6 or (seriously) R8.
  9. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    No debate there for me (and I don't like the look of R8s!)
    But:
    A purpose designed sportscar, mid engined with one of the finest engines ever made and near perfect balance...
    Or a glorified TT built on a Golf/A3 platform hindered by a front engine etc, etc, blah, blah...

    S3/TTs may look good...
    RS4s may have road presence...
    But an R8 still stops me in my stride.

    Although, if I had a 'spare' £50k I'd not be dropping it into either of those two...but that's a whole different debate again.

    Round and round...:p
  10. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I am a tad paranoid of the same thing...
    There is an R8 a few streets from me...and boy, does it turn heads.

    I keep my 'toy' garaged to the point thay people on the same street don't know what's in there...sadly, I think that would be a requirement with something as showy as an R8.


    Nor me...


    ..and following on from that:

    Lets say you could still buy an RS4 @ £50k new.
    You can buy a RS4 new, a used R8 or a new, fully loaded S3 modify it and still have a healthy amount of change...and end up in very similar territory performance wise...but very different images and thrills purely based on the driving experience - I'll not even try to put them in order due to upsetting people!


    So...£50K.
    New GTR anyone?
    997 turbo?
    GT3?
    AM V8? (mate of mine just bought a year and a bit old one for £45K)
  11. jonnyc
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    jonnyc Member

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    £50k for an R8? If they were £50k I would find it a lot easier to make my mind up what I was going to sell the Golf for lol..
  12. Sohrob
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    Sohrob Member

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    you wont get an r8,gtr or 997 turbo for 50k. Try 65k
  13. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    Ahhh - yep fair point - can't find one for under £59,995
  14. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    R8s...any number just under £60k.
    2 months ago...£68-69k

    Walk into a dealer with £50k in your pocket (not really, but you get the idea) and see what yuo can drive one away for?
    Maybe not £50k...but £53-54k?
    Dams sure you can.
    ...and you aren't likely to argue the toss ofer 3-4000 if you are spending £50+, are you?

    997 turbos are still £60k - fair point.
    But again, give it a couple of months and they'll be able to be had in the £50ks.

    They aren't selling...nobody's offering cheap credit..so bargains galore!

    The basic debate is strong though...you could spend early to mid £50ks on a specced up RS4 if you put your mind to it.

    Instead of ordering a new RS4 (if it were possible) or a new S3...wait the 8012 weeks delivery is on average...and both the R8 and - at a push - 997 turbos will be in reach.
  15. Sohrob
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    Sohrob Member

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    but you are looking at the cheapest examples, as most of us here are car enthusiasts im pretty sure we would turn down a lot of the cheaper ones due to low spec,condition etc etc.

    I personally think that cars wont fall so sharply anymore and will stabilise, a of my pals who work/own prestige garages are having there best months. People are seing used cars cheaper that ever and buying so it should mean used prices hold up better.

    I do see the point you are making though but some people will always buy new.
  16. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Absolutely...
    I was merely throwing another option in.

    We have agreed a tuned S3 will match an RS4 performance wise..but not perhaps image wise.

    But at 'new' RS4 money...how many would be swayed by something more exotic, but used?
    Also, cars like R8s and 911 turbos 'tend' to be well cared for...so cheap doesn't alays mean scruffy.

    I too would prefer new...your own spec, colour, no marks etc...but you can't help but wonder...what if?

    Practicalities aside...would people be tempted at something more exotic over a new RS4?
  17. Shug1874
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    Shug1874 Member

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    You're thinking about this the wrong way.
    You can only fit a few cases of beer in the boot of an s3, but an rs4 makes a trip to majestic that little bit more satisfying :thumbsup:
  18. buckas
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    buckas Member

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    interesting read

    still love a RS4 - torsion quattro over haldex :)
  19. HotboxDeluxe
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    HotboxDeluxe automatic

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    Yes! At 50 bags I'd be tempted by something more 'exotic' but still usable. I know 911s are common as muck but I've always dreamed about them and they still say 'proper sports car' to me...

    Usable back seats for small people and every-day usable...hmm, practical too! (as long as there's no need to put a trolley-full of Aldi groceries in the boot)

    :yum:
  20. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    Probably.

    For me, what makes the RS4 special, is the way its packaged into a practical 4 door and still look sfantastic.

    Practicality aside, then I wouldnt spend 50K on a saloon.

    Paul
  21. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Guilty as charged...
    It was late...past my bedtime even. :whistle2:
  22. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    And to me, for obvious reasons.


    You'd be surprised what you can fit in - even in a 4WD 911 with it's shallower boot.
    The rear seats fold down to give you a decent storage area.
    We went round Europe in one, coming back with all the baggage, 2 crates of wine, 2 model cars and some beers.

    But:
    I'd not want to use one everyday.
    You darent park it anywhere, the ground clearance is poor and nobody ever lets you out of a junction!

    So maybe £50k doesn't buy you a 997 turbo yet...but it buys you most 996s and most 997s. Plenty of choice.


    I think if were looking and had another car to use daily, I'd go for something more exotic.
    However, if I were looking for 1 car to do the lot...it's hard to see past an RS4.

    Special enough to float your boat, yet subtle enough to blend in when required.
  23. HotboxDeluxe
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    HotboxDeluxe automatic

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    Da man makes several good points! My pops has had a couple of 996 turbos so I've seen first hand that they can be used for all the normal car stuff like taking the kids to school and shopping and other mundane stuff - leaving it anywhere isn't soooo much of an issue over here because they are far more common place (vandalism is still a risk, but no more so than any expensive-ish car, plus I live in quite a civilised town lol)

    So, back to the RS4...by no means would it be off my list, because what I love even more than 911s is fast saloon cars in general! I'd have one in a heartbeat over a current M3 or M5 (this is coming from a BMW fan mind you) because they just don't do it for me like the previous generations. Even though I don't like Mercs (taxi, truck, old mans car, etc) I'd give the C63 AMG a serious look...just because of the engine. Engine makes the car in this case!

    Not just idle musing this, in less than 3 years time I'm up for an expensive fast car. I deserve one lol, and by golly, I shall have one :happy:
    It has to be practical (them kids again), fast, and usable. S4 is on the shortlist - ok it's not wildly exotic but fast enough for me, and the sort of car I can use day in, day out. Doesn't need to be good on track, got an old beemer for that :whistle2: But I'm not just looking at Audis...
  24. klauster
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    klauster Active Member

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    This thread is very interesting...

    I had a mildly tweaked MTM tuned S3, pushing out 310 ish. I loved it and thought was a great car. Fast, looked good, handled ok and was a nice place to be.

    I traded it in for an RS4 last year and have never looked back. The RS4 package is to me, a completely different kettle of fish, its fast, it looks superb, the grip and ride is better imho.

    A few people here at work say they preferred my S3, and believed it felt quicker etc... that was resolved with a throw of the keys and a test drive. The RS4 power delivery is completely different and the size of the car makes it hard to gauge your speed... but its quick!

    I understand the arguement, and a well tuned S3 would keep up with an RS4, but I'm not convinced that would be the case on twisties and in any weather/on damp roads. I can't comment on new S3s or ones fitted with new suspension setups (aftermarket), but my stock one struggled with the power when i had it and rid sometimes got choppy, while the RS4 feels like you could add more power comfortably... which I may well do...
  25. Audi_nut
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    Audi_nut Member

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    The fact is a turbo charged car will always feel faster than N/A engine. Another thing we are comparing a highly modified S3 to a normal RS4 (if you can call an RS4 NORMAL !!!!) which i feel is unfair. Why not have the RS4 highly modified as well ???, Why not compare like with like ???. In Ireland (where i am from) an S3 is not so rare but an RS4 is uber rare so the eyes will fall out of my head when i see an RS4 but don't get me wrong i will look twice when an S3 goes by.
  26. jonnyc
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    jonnyc Member

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    That was a point I made earlier.. Good luck tuning that on the cheap lol.. S3 with 360+BHP would still be faster..
  27. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    But...to be fair, how fast they feel has little relationship on how fast they actually are. The RS4 may not feel as fast as a tuned S3...but in everything but a straight line, it will be.

    Point to point, the S3s chassis and Haldex system is no match for the RS4 I'll wager in most keen drivers hands...despite the additional weight of the RS4.

    Having chased one down some really twisty back roads I'm amazed at how nimble an 1700Kg car can be with someone that can drive behind the wheel.
  28. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I don't remember doing so.
    I don't know how Jonny drives...nor do I care.

    The proper quattro system of the RS4 is just better...more predictable, wider tyres = more grip, better designed suspension etc makes the RS4, in my mind, the faster car towards the limit.

    The S3 WILL understeer at the limit...the RS4 oversteer slightly.

    Unless we start comparing S3s with £1000s spent on suspension against standard RS4s too?
  29. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I have no biased view either way...I've not owned either, I have no desire to own either at the moment, but driven both...so can only go on what I find by driving and what I see, from my car when following or being followed.
    And in my view...the RS4s limits are higher.

    Sure the S3 can be given more power...but the chassis is simply not as good as the RS4s...so it will always struggle, in my opinion, to use it as easily as the RS4 does.


    At the end of the day, opinions are opinions.
    And with different driving styles being what they are, different levels of understanding of cars to compare driving experiences to, and different road types for different geographical locations...an opinion will always be that.
    Everyone is entitled to their own.
    It's not an argument...
    It doesn't have to be understood.
    Just accepted.
  30. Oli.
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    Oli. Member

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    In answer to the original question, yes, compared to a heavily tuned S3 it might be, but spend the same amount on an RS4 - bye bye!

    I used to have a modded S3 - 330BHP, which was very fast, but it is nothing on my RS4 avant - Its just in a different league.

    Going out in the RS4 anytime is just such an event - even just to the shops!
  31. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Totally agree....I could have had an RS4 when I was changing cars and bought the S3.

    It does exactly what I need,and fits the driveway and our awful roads locally much better than the RS4,but I can see why the RS4 fits the bill for so many others.....if I needed a fast estate,the RS4 Avant would be on my list.

    Now....to get the misfire on my S3 sorted and get the power back...
  32. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    See! You should have bought the RS4.
    That way when you get a single missfire due to VAGs iffy coilpacks you only loose 1/8th of the power...not 1/4! :whistle2:
  33. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Sorry if I've picked things up wrong.
    Sadly, it's very hard to be impartial if you own one of the cars involved in the comparison...as most people - even some on here! :p - believe they have the best car in the world. It's human nature.
    Very few people will tell you they own a car not as good as another.

    The trouble is 'not as good' is a fluid description based on what you know and want....so I suppose there is no 'better' or 'worse'.
  34. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Not ignorant at all.
    There are too many factors to be considered.

    Round a dry track?
    Round a wet track?
    Tight kart like track, or Silverstone?
    On a smooth, dry road?
    On a wet bumpy road?
    Both at the hands of a RS4 driver?
    Or both at the hands of an S3 driver?

    So many parameters...it's too easy to stack the deck in your favour, then call the result.

    So not an ignorant comment at all...merely a slightly synical observation.
  35. jonnyc
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    jonnyc Member

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    Anyways, the claim you have made is not true.. If you take the time to read my comment on cost of tuning vs. power return on the RS4 earlier in the discussion you will understand why..

    I dont own an S3 any more, but I do know what im talking about.. And have driven both cars at length (most of the people cannot say that) I would consider myself qualified to comment..

    It seems that the main protagonists that are calling BS have driven neither.. Reading magazine reviews does not really give you the same insight as having actually driven them!?

    Discussing a subject like this is always going to be tricky, at the end of the day how can a cheaper 'lesser' car from the same manufacturer once modified be faster, surely that isn't possible etc etc.. Well if you believe that then there is the problem..

    Tuned S3 vs. RS4
    Tuned S3 vs. S5
    Tuned Golf GTI vs. R32 (yes people dont believe that either)
    Tuned 135i vs. 335i
    Tuned 135i vs. M3

    The list goes on and on..

    Anyways Im out of here, have fun guys!

    Jonny
  36. WiZBiT
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    WiZBiT Member

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    The S3 is a little head turner and well qualified to be one. 360 horses in a midly tuned state hatch is all the evidence ppl need. I'm not surprised the rs4 felt slow!
  37. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    This is a very valid point...
    And suggesting one is very good against another car can only be done when you've driven enough very good cars to compare them against.


    Or heaven forbid...a cheaper alternative from the same group?
    A Golf GTI with potentially a better chassis than an S3, with an S3 turbo and mods?
    Surely start line traction issues aside (Racelogic TCS and a Quaife diff anyone?) will make for a faster and more nimble car than a tuned S3 with the same money spent on it?
    Well, yes.
    But it's only a Golf...


    The only area that a 'lesser' car may feel inferior is in feel...how 'special' it makes the driver feel....and although a truly special car may make you feel special every time you drive it...a tuned 'lesser' deemed car will make you feel good when you leave the driver of the 'special' car sitting.
    Swings and roundabouts I suppose.
  38. Vtec Abuser
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    Vtec Abuser Member

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    Nice thread guys.. :laugh: Think i'll stay out of this one though as look what happened last time a thread including a modded TFSI v's RS4 was posted..:blush: :laugh:
  39. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    I love it - this thread just keeps on plugging away ;)

    I think to many factors have come in to this debate now.
    The OP was only saying the RS4 seemed slow against his modded S3!
    We've gone through power to weight, cost's to mod each car, grip and still got no further forward!

    It does feel like all the S3 owners are getting told that they have to accept that their cars can not be anywhere near an RS4... I just find that provocative and a bit ignorant, especially as several people have driven both now and most have said performance wise, not a lot in it (in a straight line and in the corners!). I think ALL would agree the RS4 is more of an event (but that wasn't the point of the OP was it?).

    Anyway.... I wonder how much longer this will keep going....
  40. Oli.
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    Oli. Member

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    :wtf:I'm struggling to understand why you have unleashed all this on my comment above???


    I did own a tuned S3, not to your standards unfortunately, and do own an RS4 avant now, so I would have thought I am in an pretty ideal position to make comment. My comments, which if you highlighted the whole statement, weren't purely on speed, but how special you feel in an RS4. I agree that a heavily modified S3 is faster than an RS4, but spend a like for like amount on mods, and there isn't going to be much in it, and I know which I'd prefer to be driving - an S3 or an RS4?? - tough one there? For me driving isn't purely about out and out speed, its also how you get there, which I'm sure you'd agree with.

    And for me the RS4 is them most perfect 'standard' car that I have ever owned, and I don't even see the point in modding it in anyway, as its too fast for most UK roads anyway. Thats why I sold my S3 and brought an RS4, well that and having the 3rd child on the way, and the small boot on the S3 is no where big enough for all the kit I need for the clan!

    Anyway just my tuppence, or probbaly threepence looking at the size of my input.:salute:

    I can see this going on for a long time, as there are pro's and con's to both sides of the arguments:)
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