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Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by tobycruse, Feb 19, 2009.
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I agree with most of that.
When I replaced my 8L with my new S3 I was gutted the arches weren't flared and thought the standard seats were a let down too.
BUT - to drive, 8L versus 8P is no contest.
Audi have a price they have to pitch the S3 at - £27k, meaning they have a budget they have to work within to develop the car. It seems rather than invest in tooling for flared arches, they invested in lighter weight suspension at the front and enhancements to the engine.
IMHO the 8P is such a massive lep forward from the 8L in terms of how it drives. As a result, my view on the lack of flared arches soon paled in to insignificance as I was smiling a lot more behind the wheel.
I do think this is an intersting thread - controversial to say the least and well done to Toby for getting us all discussing it.
As I mentioned before, given the choice, I'd buy an RS4, purely for the sound track, but a well sorted S3 shouldn't be sniffed at as it still ticks an awful lot of the boxes.
It's quick, handles well, refined, interior is a nice place to be, delivers reasonable MPG.
In terms of cost someone posed the question about New S3 versus used RS4 - similar sort of price now.
How about we make it really interesting - 2 year old S3 £20k + £4k of mods versus used RS4, lets say a nice one is £30k. It's still a massively capable car for the money.
To say all S3 owners are mad to think there car is better than an RS4 is a bit extreme - I think all would admit it's a step behind the RS4 - but with a few choice mod's the gap is far smaller than the difference in price suggests.
Very true and a well written reserved post.
If we are talking cars lets talk cars. Is a lambo countach, diablo etc a stunning looking car? For me yes it is, truely. But aparently they aren't nice to drive as cars at all.
For me how a car looks and first appears to me makes me decide 100% on what i will do next. One assumes that a car because it looks good is a good drive no??
For example, when i walked into my local Audi Dealership a few weeks back there was a car that i'd seen online many times and had looked at it on youtube etc. Nothing prepared me as i walked through the door to feel the sledgehammer of a car that is the RS6 staring smack at me.
Soooooooooooooooooo much presence on the road for a family saloon.
No word of a lie, i stood there for what seemed like 5 mins just looking at the paint, the lines, the bulges and they really are that, bulges. I could not get over how a family saloon looked so stunning. Moving round to the sides the car just gripped me and i could hardly contain myself from shouting "OMFG OMFG OMFG" lol. Luckily i put my hand over my mouth.
I think i am a very pasionate person when it comes to what a car stands for, what heritage it comes from and what it says to me when i look at it. The new/old RS4, new/old RS6, R8, old S3, old S4 etc all have a place for me as i think they each hold a certain spark, a certain hidden monster which is waiting......
I've no idea what any of them drive like, some are tiptronic are they not? Not really fully manual? Or can they be had in manual guise? I might think that they are ****, but by GOD do they look fantastic.
I've only ever driven the 8L S3. For me it doesn't fail or perfom greatly but as an all rounder it wins me over.
I guess what i'm saying is that although a car may drive awesome and perform awesome does that make it an awesome car? For me it doesn't, never will, the looks are what inspire people!
So in brief - you like the ways cars LOOK rather the way they DRIVE.
To be honest I can't think of anything less "Audi-Sport" than that.
Well i would assume that the two would be fairly hand in hand. You get a nice set of perfomance parts and put a nice shaped body/chassis on it (in short). Those are fundamentals of building a sports orientated car are they not.??
Nothing to do with being more or less Audi-sport, you've obviously mis-read the post. You may not like my opinions on the new S3 seeing as you own one, but i'm being as unbias as i can be and looking at the two cars on merit.
One performs better the other looks better. Simple as that really imo of course.
If your S3 looked like a brick would you buy it only knowing how well it drove......think not!
Hence the fact you own one in the first place. Something different and a little more rare than the normal ST, Type R that you see everywhere.
Fair point Mr.G. I wouldn't no - but that's what every Impreza/Evo driver does because they are into the thrill of driving and looks don't mean a thing to them.
On the other hand you have those who would buy a Beetle or a Hyundai Coupe just for its looks even though they drive like a dog's dinner.
I agree the 8L looks better than the 8P.
I think the 8P drives better than the 8L.
But for me (though I do acknowledge other opinions) the "sport" tag must refer to performance first and foremost which makes the 8P a car with more "Audi Sport appeal" than the 8L. Only IMO of course.
Cracking thread this.
But you imply the 8P S3 is ugly.
It's not ugly, but agree it doesn't stand out as much as it could verus an S-line for example.
But would I have preferred Audi invest in the tooling to flare the arches versus investing in the engine and suspension adn therefore the way it drives? Nope.
Would I have preferred the S3 to cost £29k v £27k in order to accomodate the flared arches too... hmmmm probably not too.
I like the look of the car, I like the way it drives. Would I let the fact it didn't have flared arches put me off buying it? no way.... it's a great car to throw down your favourite piece of road!
Had RS4's been avaialble at £30k when I bought mine, would I have let the V8 rule my decision... probably!
They are actually a very capable car for the money
A better example would have been a ford streetka or an vectra VXR imo!
Nah is overpriced & pre-facelift, I'd go for a mid range mileage 03 tbh, now I know what to do as I did to mine it would be fairlly easy to bring upto spec I reckon, but tbh is there any point stepping back, the way is forward I fear, given prices that might be sooner rather than later.
I think I'd agree with this, I'd say its not ugly, but its lacking in the refined S badge that the 8L had, the differences between the S3 & the next one down were very distinct, but overall as per Jamie's comments I dont think the look of it would detract me away from buying one(she might) but I reckon once I got in the car & drove it even half a mile I'd buy it in a heartbeat, I had the V8 for a while in the S4 & tbh it didnt thrill me then again it wasnt an RS4, I'd be happy with the S3 even with mediocre looks as the engine is so damn good that it makes you forget about everything else unless it looked like a lada, but its like when many of us bought the FBMFSW we were like damn thats expensive, then seeing it on car, the cost thought doesnt even come into my head anymore, if my analogy makes sense, god had some fun in that S3, urm summers coming
i've just wasted 30mins of my life reading this thread hahaha
find several people with a tuned s3's and rs4's and book a drag strip for the day and a mobile dnyo and sort it out there, bring your fists too
I looked at the RS4, was going to get it, but after my R32 turbo I wanted a turbo in my next car. The K04 2.0T had plenty of potential for tuning (and the S3 fitted in my garage). RS5 was also on the cards, but then again I wanted the turbo. I went S3.... If this RS3 comes along I'll have one (and tinker with it!) if it's going to be the same rumoured 2.5T from the TT-RS.
Bit off topic here but why is the A3 constantly referred to as a posh Golf?
Is it not that the Golf is a budget A3?
Because some people are ignorant of the facts mate.
Really, 1st time I've heard that phrase tbh Paul, I know people consider the golf the lower down line A3 if you get my drift, but tbh some people think the golf is better than the a3, I always thought it went top downwards, audi, vw, seat, skoda, even if they do share loads of the same parts, personally be nice if audi took some design ideas from the vw scirocco team for the a3, it looks very nice on the road, the wide stance that the s3 should of had imho, if they did a 4wd version I'd be seriously interested, mainly cause the better half likes it to so win win, just have to get head round interior as tads boring to me
guys i have a way of settling this.
Look at the s3 as a short athletic guy who has taken a course of steroids and being training hard. He is now lifting a lot more and competing with the big guys.
The rs4 is a big chap who perhaps doesnt train as much as he used to but is naturally big.
Both guys are similar in strength but the smaller guy (s3) is prone to injuries and perhaps needs more supplements where as the big buy isnt really pushing himself but has more in the bag.
lol, like the analogy
Sort of like a boxer putting on the pounds and moving up a weight or two?
Pah, the RS4 is just a posh Passat with a big engine.
lmao, wait for it mate, the barrage will begin now
Ha thats about right...
S3 .... :thumbsup:
LMFAO - Good work my friend!
Inside every RS4 there's a Passat wanting to get out
skipped thru most of this thread haha i do have a life!...anyways what about if.....you spend 5k tuning the RS4....now that would be awesome!!!!! besides, u can make any car go faster by throwing big money at it! but out the box....RS4 wins hands down IMO
True that! best bit of sence that has been spoken in this thread so far.
The problem with this debate is it is so open ended. If you spent 200,000,000 on the a3 and turned it into an f1 car...... it would be as fast as an f1 car. wow!
I think the tale behind this is if you were to spend 5k on each car, they would both be alot faster. Lets face it, the performance figures on a 4.2 v8 are open ended, you could screw 1000hp out of it without too many problems, but it would just be silly.
I think you should all sell you S3's and RS4's and just get a diesel! then everyones happy!
I kinda did the reverse on that one lol
Agree with this.
I think what gives this debate some credibilty is that for a relatively small outlay you can make an 8P S3 produce very similar headline figures to a std RS4.
-A std S3 and std RS4 are totally different cars with totally different performance figures.
-A tuned S3 and a std RS are totally different cars with similar performance figures.
Its little more than that.
But it is food for thought for the performance junkies among us.
In fact its not to disimilar to tales of S3 slaying tuned Golf Gtis. Not what an S3 owners whats to here but its true.
Mildy tuned Golf Gtis (ED30s in particular) can outgun S3 in certain circumstances.
FWIW, and as an tuned S3 owner, I still have a fancy Passat on my `next car` list.
So if any RS4 owners are in the North east and need their tyres warmed up you can PM me and I will try and fit you in sometime.
After spending 5k on the engine alone you should be able to just about make the claimed Audi power figures.. How awesome is that!!
8th wonder of the world mate, lol
Nice figures from a MK5. Not 4WD though so whats the point in bringing that into the equation???
LOL @ the pic of AUTOGLYM "the perfect finish" omg have they seen their products on a car?
Well considering at that event the 2wd GTi Ed30 with 360-370bhp was crossing the line 10mph faster than a 440bhp 4WD S3 everyday of the week it kind of puts in to context the 'real world' perforamce of a lot of these cars!
This thread started because an RS4 feels slower than an S3, why isn't the concept that a Golf can make both cars feel slow significant?
I find this thread an interesting one...
I too find it interesting but imo only 4WD cars have relevance as the power delivery is different between those mention and the FWD Golf. I have little care that a Golf is faster than my car, good on the chap for making good power from his engine etc etc.
I'm not into tuning that much myself. I'd like a re-map yes, and if i had the money MTM throughout but i don't so....
I could have said that an Integra Type R DC2 would make most feel slow as it's the VTEC noise combined with road speed and handling that would give me just cause to say it.
I know that a friends DC2 wipes the floor with mine and when i'm in it it feels even faster than it looks.
The general theme of the thread has been to highlight how how an S3 can `challenge`an RS4 with some mild tuning.
So why not bring some balance to the thread by pointing out that `lesser` cars can challenge an 8P S3 with some mild tuning in the same way?
Nothing like a bit of controversial truth is there! haha..
Full Exhaust (fitted) - 10bhp - £2000
Intake (fitted) - 7bhp - £1200
Remap - 15bhp - £590
Custom reworked intake plenum (fitted) - 10bhp - £1200
So even if you have a particularly powerful RS4 with '380hp' you will see 2hp more than the claimed 420 with a mere £4990 investment!
Sorry.. £10 out
Uhm as i just said, the power delivery is totally different, loosing traction in 1st with that sort of power throught the front wheels will obviously make the MK5 feel very quick as it's the experience of the noise, movement and once the car gains traction no doubt lurches forward..........etc etc
I'm saying that the S3 and RS4 are both 4WD so therefore have very similar ways of putting down the power and therefore feel very similar, the original post saying "Just driven an RS4..... Bit slow arn't they?".
I may add the owner of the thread has an Ibis White S3 Sportback - 365bhp - 350lb/ft Comparing his own "tuned" i might add, car, to that RS4 he'd driven.
I see no relevance to a MK5 GTI here. But thats my opinion on the matter doesn't mean i'm right. Most threads here on AS go off topic more than once so adding a FWD into the mix is fine. Carry on, bothers me not. I'm not interested at all in the MK5 GTI or i'd be posting on the VW forums and not on AS.
You're right Paul - Never mind challenge an S3 - jonny's golf obliterated my car..... and i'm pretty sure it would do the same to an RS4 going on power to weight as mentioned in one of my earlier posts!
Yep, its an uncomfortable truth that an apparently lesser car can give you a scare with not much tuning.
That said, if I had an RS4 in my drive I wouldnt lose a lot of sleep knowing that I could be challanged by an S3 or Golf (or whatever) on the way to work in the morning.........
But having a tuned S3 on the drive is a nice feeling too....
Agreed turning the key and getting that V8 rumble would put a smile one any petrol heads face
I'm gonna get flamed here but i don't care. I always speak my mind, some like it some hate it......
If i had an RS4 i'd loose no sleep whatsoever that a tuned S3 or Golf or whatever would give me a run for my money on the way to work.......
Have we all forgotten that "SPEED" isn't everything. Thats all that seems to be happening here is what car is faster than this car.....i for one find it childish. Again this is my opinion, doesn't mean to say i'm right or wrong.
Why can't it be about what the car speaks to people and says to people when they see it, hear it. Inspiration of a product and brand, rather than my car is quicker, will out do yours down a drag strip at santa pod.
Did you all buy your cars for how fast they go? Do you all still buy MAX POWER?
But weve already had SUBARUS, EVO and (dare I say it) a 1series BMW drawn as comparisons here so why not Golfs which share the same engine as the S3 and come from the same stable?.
JonnyC has made a HUGE contribution to AS.net during his S3 Project and has now embarked on a Golf project.
Does this mean he can only discuss his last project and not the current because its non AUDI?
Anyway, you have your view and I respect that.
Just wait until the next BMW v AUDI debate and you will be asking yourself "Am I on the right forum?" I did, and still often do
Is that a hint to borrow my back catalogue?