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Just driven an RS4..... Bit slow arn't they?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by tobycruse, Feb 19, 2009.

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  1. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 19, 2009]
    Some of you may know my Mum drives an RS4, the 4.2 V8 420bhp monster.

    First, according to AmD, most of the RS4's they have on the rollers only produce 380bhp max.

    Since i got my S3 i have managed to tune it to 375bhp and plenty of torque.

    So, i went out in my Mums RS4 for the first time after having my car done and i can honestly say it felt slow.... Seemed to take ages to get through the gears and no kick in the chops i was expecting.

    Whats going through my head is S3 (£27k) + Tuning (5K) = £32k

    RS4 = £50k

    Thank god for the K04 2.0TFSI engine!
    #1
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  3. NHN
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    NHN Retrofitter - Audi - VW - Skoda - Seat Site Sponsor VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Thankyou someone at last agrees with me about the V8 4.2 engine, my S4 B6 had same engine except for RS4 tuning of course & had 365 with map on it & to me it was slow, they are just to heavy which is maybe why the new s4 has a V6 turbo'd instead of naturally.

    Its a nice engine but for me it was alot of noise with no real power to match.

    Loves the car really did but was tad boring where as my S3 was always fun to drive.

    Edit. It would appear it has been changed from a twin turbo to a supercharger, apologies, it was originally going to be twin turbo's but was changed due to the high warranty exchanges of the B5 S4 turbo's
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  4. Doublemint1984
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    Doublemint1984 Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Isnt the new S4 supercharged and not turbo'ed?
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  5. leecs3
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    leecs3 thinking about stuff

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    they feel slow because there geared for 200mph+ rather than 160mph like an S3. Its probably is faster but not as snappy as you need to work it. RS4 B5's feel quicker too out of the box with the turbo push.
    #4
  6. V6Pete
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    V6Pete Now running on Bentley's y'all

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    The power and torque curves are much different on a V8 to a Turbo 4 pot.

    The RS4 is a heavier car than the S3, so even with an extra 40bhp, it's never going to feel any quicker. The original RS4 (and S4) felt quick because of the twin turbos. Audi took a different direction with the new RS4, and you do need to rev the engine hard to use that power.

    The new RS4 is a fantastic car, and well worth the £18K over a tuned S3 IMHO (if you can afford it!)
    #5
  7. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Would still have one.

    On paper its still at least 100bhp more than my S3 so that must count for something.

    From a `legal` perspective I find it hard to believe that `according to AMD` RS4s are only pushing 380bhp??
    In this day and age can car makers get away with this?:think:


    It seems to be at odds with the general concensus that S3s are pushing out more than AUDIs quoted figures.:think:

    What say you?

    cheers
    Paul
    #6
  8. FazS3
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    FazS3 Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Ive never really bin excited by the power of the B7, but I guess this is probably due to the smoothness of the delivery?

    For me RS4, its all about the B5 it feels so quick and so smooth I love them, and I prefer the power delivery of the twin turbo.

    But a turbo car will feel more punchy then a NA car,however the B7 is still a very very fast motor
    #7
  9. DaveS3Turbo
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    DaveS3Turbo Sepang Blue S3

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Bull ****. My dad has an RS4 and I have had an S3. Its no where fecking near. Also there is no way the RS4 doesn't produce 420 BHP
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  10. Matt
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    Matt Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I'll have an RS4. If only for the sound!
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  11. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I'd take the RS4 over my (quite heavily modded 342bhp 344 lb/ft) S3 anyday.
    The OP says the RS4 "felt" slow - that's not the same thing as "being" slow. And as someone else has said - speed isn't everything. The RS4 is a better driver's car than the front drive biased S3.
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  12. Sohrob
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    Sohrob Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    as iggu said there is feeling slow and actually being slow!!! imo especially with a remap the s3's tend to feel quicker than they are.

    I wont even bother getting into the handling,grip and braking ability of an rs4 as it will make mince meat of an s3.

    With the mods toby has there probably isnt much difference in speed but i would think the rs4 is more flexible.
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  13. gavsteryoung
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    gavsteryoung Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I think its also known that rolling road measurements on the RS4 have never worked great... i think its something to do with the 40:60 power split....

    I'm guessing the S3 would pretty much stick to front wheel drive on the rollers no?

    Plus turbo power delivery always feel quicker than NA
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  14. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Well, you may want to believe they produce 420bhp but they dont!

    There is a laminated dyno plot on the wall at AmD Essex for an RS4 and it only makes 380bhp and 305lb/ft.

    There is also a law suit currently going on in America in regards to the RS4 not meeting their quoted power figures. Apparently a car can produce more power than quoted but NOT less.

    I do realise that you have to rev the RS4 engine to get the power but then you loose driveability due to all the power being between 6000rpm and 8000rpm. Not exactly great for easy usable power.

    Dave, did you a S2+ map on your car?
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  15. PNH80
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    PNH80 Low life livin' the high life.

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    In the nicest possible way comparing an S3 to an RS4 is a bit silly to say the least.
    I think if you went for a 'spirited drive' across countryside or mountain roads or to be fair....Any race track, the gulf in engineering between the 2 is obvious.
    I'm not saying your findings are wrong, i'm sure bombing about town i.e. 0-40 a tuned S3 is lightning fast and feels more responsive than an RS4 (bigger car, MUCH heavier engine over the front wheels, full time 4WD hogging power and bogging it down off the line etc) but 40-60, 60-90, 90-150 i think would be a very different story!

    The V8 in the RS4 is starting to get a little long in the tooth compared to the lump in the M3, Mercedes C63 etc etc but it's still one hell of an engine.

    I think it's also missing the point of the RS4 entirely to judge it on this basis. Lets not even get started on how much better the interior is or how much more advanced the drive train is! This car was regarded as 'the best car in the world' when it arrived. Clarkson said it was the best engine he had ever driven.

    The S3 is a wonderful little car, does everything superbly and is probably better for commuting but it's well and truly out of it's league here as a machine.

    I am assuming you haven't borrowed it for a proper drive on open twisty roads yet? See if you can do that and then give us another report!
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  16. PNH80
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    PNH80 Low life livin' the high life.

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I actually believe that. When you see any track test between the RS4 and E92 BMW M3, it's obvious. Both are supposed to produce roughly the same BHP on paper but the M3 absolutely destroys it. I'm pretty certain in the real world the RS4 is nearer the 380 you're talking about. But that's nothing to be ashamed of!!
    #15
  17. DeckedS3
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    DeckedS3 Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I've put mine up agains my mates RS4 and I pull away every time. It's a heavy beast! I'd still have one though (with the MTM Supercharger installed!!!).
    #16
  18. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Have you ever driven an RS4?

    The interior is almost exactly the same. Bucket seats, FBMFSW, metal pedals etc...

    The 40-60, 60-90 etc is where a tuned S3 can really shine through. The torque delivery is much more fierce. Yes after about 140mph the RS4 will shine but that ability is useless on the roads, only on a track would you use that.

    The difference is you need to have the engine in the RS4 at about 6000rpm to get the most out of it. So 40 to 60 would need to be in 2nd where as a tuned S3 could do it in 3rd and keep going all the way to 90mph without changing gear.

    I will endeavour to get some real world times for you to prove this point.

    As for handling and drivetrain. I have got the RS4 to slide very easily.... If its a little wet on a roundabout too much right foot can start a fair bit of understeer.

    I still think its a great car, don't get me wrong. But since getting my S3 done, the once great light that shone from its exhausts has dimmed.
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  19. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    When my S3 was on the rollers all 4 wheels were gunning for it!
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  20. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I think sometimes people find it hard to get their head around that a mildly tuned S3 is a real world peformance weapon, even though its `just a fancy Golf`

    On paper, and from a price perspective, the S3 has no right to be anywhere near an RS4, even in mild tune (map + bolt ons).

    But from what Toby has said, and previous threads, it looks like this is the case.
    That said, I would love an RS4:)

    Cheers
    Paul
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  21. PNH80
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    PNH80 Low life livin' the high life.

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    [Feb 20, 2009]

    Hmm...ok then, i'm not going to convince you otherwise to what you're saying. The basic fact that you're comparing a Haldex controlled 2.0T hatch (tuned beyond what it was intended to achieve) to a V8 full time 4WD saloon based on 'how fast it feels' speaks volumes, you're missing the point of what the RS4 was designed for so we'll leave it at that! The S3 suits your lifestyle and criteria for a car more than an RS4 so thats good :o.k:. You've saved yourself a lot of money. Jeremy clarkson who's driven every piece of exotica ever made declares the RS4 as one of the most perfectly balanced cars with the best engine he'd ever driven (at that time). You borrow your mums and get it to slide on a roundabout in the wet and all of a sudden it's 'average'. No offence but i know who's critique of the car i'll be going with. Each to their own.

    To answer your question yes i have driven an RS4 a few times (the Avant version) and i'm sorry but the build quality of the interior is superior. The car 'feels' more expensive to me. You think they're almost exactly the same? Specsavers is calling...

    I borrowed my uncles 997 Carrera 4S for a day not too long ago (£80k worth) and about town and regular roads/driving conditions in urban areas it felt no better quality, quicker or exciting than my A3 2.0T Q. Not for a millisecond would i be short sighted enough to say it's therefore 'not as good'. A Carrera doesn't even come into it's own until the A3 reaches it's limit. It's built for handling, response and performance at highers speeds. Bombing about town is a waste of the car and no basis for a review.

    This is what i'm trying to get across, the S3 no matter what BHP it's putting out... as a car, chassis, general grip and drive train will reach it's limit. Push it too hard and you will end your days in a ditch. The RS4 on the otherhand is designed with precise handling at higher speeds in mind. The limit to which it can be pushed to safely is far far in excess of what the S3 was ever designed to achieve.

    I'm not sure how much of an advanced driver you are, how many track days you've had in each car really pushing them and finding the limit of each but fair enough. Your opinion is as valid as any i'm sure!

    You enjoy your car which is the main thing.
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  22. gavsteryoung
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    gavsteryoung Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I tend to agree, the S3 is a very fast real world car.... my S4 was pretty sorted, but this S3 wipes the floor with it....

    Its only really missing the V6 Twin Turbo / V8 Sound track....
    #21
  23. NHN
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    NHN Retrofitter - Audi - VW - Skoda - Seat Site Sponsor VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Edited my post, but it was originally spec'd for twin turbo but as my post says was changed to supercharger due to many warranty turbo failures on the B5 S4
    #22
  24. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    RS4 is an awesome car and in a different league to the S3 so no comparison.
    as for the 380 claim....dyno lotto.
    #23
  25. Sohrob
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    Sohrob Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Just noticed the car and plate, do you work in Pudsey?
    #24
  26. PNH80
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    PNH80 Low life livin' the high life.

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    It’s a lot easier to push the S3 a lot closer to it’s limits on standard British roads than an RS4. Can we all agree this? Therefore you cannot even begin to exploit the better qualities of an RS4 under standard driving conditions. This makes any review based on anything other than commuting speeds almost void.

    A couple of questions (which will hopefully clarify my point):

    1. If you gave the Stig a choice between a tuned S3 or an RS4 to set a fastest possible lap of the Nurburgring in safety and precision, which do you think he’d choose?
    2. If you had to cover a 50 mile twisty mountain road as fast and safely as possible, which would YOU choose?
    3. If you had to cover a trans-European Journey as quickly and safely as possible, again, which would YOU choose?

    Alternatively.....

    If you could pick one or the other for having a damn good laugh and an entertaining drive on standard roads in every day life, which would you choose?

    The S3 is a brilliant car and does what it was designed for effortlessly. But can we get a reality check and stop comparing cars which were designed for totally different purposes. Race bred V8 GT car vs. A 2.0 4 pot turbo hot hatch. What a bizarre comparison.

    #25
  27. jonnyc
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    jonnyc Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    What did I say Toby..

    As for quoting Jeremy Clarkson, thats just comical.. The guy doesn't have a f*cking clue..

    For all of those saying the RS4 is in another league to the S3. Just checking if you have ALL driven a fully tuned S3 and an RS4? If not then your 'opinion' is purely that..

    Are you being serious? lol..
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  28. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I couldn't resist!
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  29. Dan Gliballs
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    Dan Gliballs Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Regardless of speed or anything else, 4-pot S3's just don't flick my switch like an RS4 does.

    At nearly 35 I guess I'm just getting old lol
    #28
  30. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Remember the law suite going on in America about the RS4 not making claimed figures? No lotto there!
    #29
  31. Slipp Digby
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    Slipp Digby Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]

    he he, I agree the MTM supercharged RS4 is a fantastic car :thumbsup:

    it sounds like darth vaders tie fighter. the force is strong in this one.
    #30
  32. S3-N
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    S3-N ?

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I was at a RR day where a RS4 only made 360bhp. My S3 with just a remap made 308bhp just before.

    It's a tweaked B7 A4 not a 'race bred v8 GT car'

    still top of my next car list though :)
    #31
  33. WiZBiT
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    WiZBiT Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    FLMAO!!! Reality check?? Indeed sir, indeed required, with yourself!!! :lmfao:
    #32
  34. S3 Rav
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    S3 Rav Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    interesting read this.
    #33
  35. APL TDi
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    APL TDi Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    This is a good thread and an interesting read. I have never driven either car but I can see both sides of the arguement.

    And please try and be serious and dont quote Jeremy Clarkson or the stig again, both are just too cliche. J.C realy does not have much of a clue, he is an automotive joke.

    It is plain to see that a tuned S3 putting out 375bhp will be as quick as a RS4, and as for the 380bhp thing with the RS4, never believe what a dyno tels you, they are an indication at best.

    Having said that I would 100% go for an RS4 over an S3. I would love either car if im being honest but i think the RS4 is just a little bit better.

    And as for calling it a "race bread V8 GT" behave! Its a family saloon with an old V8 in the front! lol

    A!
    #34
  36. HotboxDeluxe
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    HotboxDeluxe automatic

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Very interesting read! I'd have a hard time choosing between the two, the RS4 is more my "thing" (4 door saloon, V8, that sort of thing) but the S3 would get seriously considered because I do quite a high mileage and is more of a "normal" car, RS4 is a bit exotic to be left outside in the snow and hailstones and put up with all the **** I throw at it....it's a moot point for me at the moment because I'm sticking with the derv for at least another 18 months :yes:
    Got a shortlist of what I'm considering after that, 2 of which are Audis again :blackrs4: I'm quite taken with the new S4, the figures look good, cars look good to me, I made a perfect one on the configurator this morning, and I wouldn't feel too bad about leaving it outside either...
    #35
  37. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I feel i need to interject here as there is a comparison being made as to what the cars are made/designed for?

    RS4 - 4 doors, 0-60 5s ish, big boot, great handling.

    S3 Sportback (my one) - 4 doors, 0-60 5s ish, big boot, great handling.

    They both take 5 people, they both can be used every day and are very practical.

    So can someone explain to me what the RS4 was designed for and what the difference between that and a tuned S3 Sportback is? Apart from looks?
    #36
  38. V6Pete
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    V6Pete Now running on Bentley's y'all

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    The RS4 is still a step up from the S3.

    It may have a similar 0-60 time, but I would prefer the power delivery of a revvy V8 to a highly tuned 2.0 Turbo. As many people would.

    The A4 interior is larger than the A3's. Although some people disagree, I think the A4 has better build quality and a better finished interior to the A3.

    Also the full Quattro system on the RS4 is superior to the S3's Haldex.

    I don't know why people always believe their car is the best thing on the road. The S3 is a great car, but the RS4 is something else...
    #37
  39. tobycruse
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    tobycruse Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    I'm not saying my car is the best thing on the road! I am comparing and I like to see what people think!
    #38
  40. V6Pete
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    V6Pete Now running on Bentley's y'all

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    Well I think you're wrong :rock:
    #39
  41. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [Feb 20, 2009]
    RS4 Avant - 1845KG - 412bhp = 223bhp/tonne
    RS4 Saloon - 1650KG - 412bhp = 249bhp/tonne
    Tuned S3 Sportback - 1495KG - 365bhp = 244bhp/tonne
    Tuned S3 hatchback - 1445KG - 365bhp = 252bhp/tonne

    317lb/ft in the RS4 versus 350lb/ft in the tuned S3.

    So, we've established there is very little on power bragging rights (and I've assumed the RS4's are delivering on their promised ponies, not the lower figure rumoured to be seen on rolling roads!).
    We've established that the S3 has more torque to get it's mass rolling, so sprints should be better.

    Now, which car handles better?
    We all know that lighter cars handle better, there is less mass to keep under control (just look at the Lotus approach!), I'd be inclined to say the S3 - it's smaller, more nimble and is very capable. You're carrying round the equivalent of 2 adults in the RS4 all the time!
    Ok, you don't have a 40:60 power split to bring the tail in to play (if you have enough talent!), but you are also hindered in the RS4 by having 4 more cylinders hanging over the front axle!

    Interesting debate though...
    #40
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