Jeff's S4

[V6_Man]

I've been around modified cars for many years now on various platforms and have learned not to get too caught up on dyno and power figures but rather to look at the shape and smoothness of the curve as an indication to the driveability of the car. As for my own car its MRC stage 2 and I'm also very skeptical about the dyno figures given.
I would love to see several cars with different tunes, single & dual pulley etc from the big names in the business, MRC, APR, REVO, SHARK etc etc all put on to the same dyno on the same day as a level playing field to show a true comparison between the cars.

Another reason why I like this forum. You will find someone on the forum who would know what they are talking about on any subject. It continues to amaze me as I have couple of friends who, unfortunately, own different other makes (no names here ) and struggle to find answers to their queries.

As for Mrs Cerbers9 ............she's long past given up (as long as I wash her car weekly ) and used to my obsession with playing with cars, I would much rather drive round the Swiss Alps and visit the Nurburgring than sit on a beach all day!

Mind sharing the trick .



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[V6_Man]

@jdp1962 Jeff you do like proofreading all the messages, don’t you


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[jdp1962]

@jdp1962 Jeff you do like proofreading all the messages, don’t you


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Heheheh! I wanted to make sure your shoutouts to @Cerbera9 worked.

 

[jdp1962]

Another reason why I like this forum. You will find someone on the forum who would know what they are talking about on any subject. It continues to amaze me as I have couple of friends who, unfortunately, own different other makes (no names here ) and struggle to find answers to their queries.

You will also find someone like me who knows nothing at all.

 

[Cerbera9]

We are all learning new stuff about these cars all the time and sharing the knowledge on this forum benifits us all. I've learnt alot from reading about the experiences of others that have gone before us and tried and trested things as well as my personaly experiences. I'd happily help anyone if I can and by the same token if anyone has more knowledge or experience than I do then I'd welcome their input on any matter.

 

[Cerbera9]

Another reason why I like this forum. You will find someone on the forum who would know what they are talking about on any subject. It continues to amaze me as I have couple of friends who, unfortunately, own different other makes (no names here ) and struggle to find answers to their queries.



Mind sharing the trick .



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lol I don't think there's any mystery here she knows if a shiny new car part turns up its probably not cheap, she's not stupid so I'm just honest about what I spend on the car. If I want to do car stuff, track days, trips etc I just give her as much warning that I'm going and she's knows what I'm like so doesn't seem to mind tbh.
Oh and the occasional spontanous buch of flowers, meal out etc always goes down well and helps smooth the road ...........................happy wife = easy life LOL

 

[Dippy]

I would really like to drive an RS3 or TTRS sometime (I drove the latter a few years ago but can't remember the details now). I have plenty of experience of turbos and turbo lag from cars with manual gearboxes but not with DCT and I'd like see/feel if they handle the lag differently. Although I do feel envious of those highly tuned turbo cars' peak power and torque, I am indeed fully aware of the lag (and indeed additional cost). But I don't know if the lag would feel as noticeable with a DCT than a manual gearbox.

To @Cerbera9 's point about MRC's dyno, I agree that we can't assume that the estimated measurements are necessarily accurate. However I believe that we can trust that the estimated measurements relative to before and after, and between similar cars, should be fairly accurate. For me this does have real value because it gives me confidence when comparing my before and after graphs. When the before peaks look close to what Audi quoted for my car, it seems reasonable to consider that the after graphs must be fairly accurate? But more than that is that MRC generously provide ample dyno graphs on their Facebook page so we can all see and question the results. Only a few other tuner do that, instead we have to just trust their quoted peak figures.

 

[Cerbera9]

I agree that MRC have never been shy to show their dyno graphs and I would be the first person to acknowlege that I am very happy with the work they did on my car, its super smooth, responsive and a great drive. I'm not knocking MRC I chose MRC after driving two other MRC cars owned by friends even though they were a 250mile round trip away and there are REVO & APR dealers 10miles from me.
I am just a little skeptical about the figures produced, for instance the following is generally acknoleged to be correct (depending on pully sizes)
Changing the supercharger pulley spins the charger approx 10% faster
Changing the Crank pulley spins the charger approx 15% faster
Changing the supercharger & Crank pulleys spins the charger approx 25% faster

How is it that by just changing the crank pulley MRC are able to make more power than APR or REVO etc dual pulley cars? Is it just down to their mapping??

 

[Dippy]

OK, you started it so lets talk numbers (and I'm a metric guy so I have converted). I'm using B8.5 data where available and I believe in all cases the gearbox is remapped.

APR
The info is clear on their website. Their stage 2 is a approx 9.5% ratio increase and they show graphs for 98RON which will peak at 464PS and 525Nm. I can't see any comment about intake mods.

REVO
Not much info on their website so let'a assume a 57mm pulley. So that's a 10% ratio increase. Their best figures are 448PS and 610Nm. They don't specify fuel but since the have a note about its importance I'd suggest those figures must have been with at least 98RON. I can't see any comment about intake mods.

MRC
Forget even looking at their website . But we know that the standard size crank pulley they fit (and what I have) is 189mm, so that's a 16.5% increase. As discussed we have plenty of dyno graphs to look at and I have downloaded a few. I'd say that with 99RON their typical peaks are around 480PS and 590Nm. These are all with MRC's intake mods.

Now we can immediately see that those peak figures simply do not easily correlate to increase in pulley ratio. However we do know that in raw terms for a FI engine, torque is proportional to boost and in the case of supercharging this is directly proportional to the ratio of blower revs to engine revs, i.e. pulley ratio. So from a starting point it is undisputable that MRC's stage 2 is capable of increasing torque more than APR's stage 2 or REVO's stage 1+. If we assume that all 3 solutions are based on air intake mods which are equivalent, then the fact that they are each giving different figures (and undoubtedly different torque curves) has to be down to mapping. Yes dynos vary, but these are 3 reputable companies with skilled engineers and I do not believe they will knowingly quote figures or produce graphs from dynos which are excessively inaccurate.

For me the biggest difference is that MRC provide custom maps. When I had my B5 S4 and wanted to tune it, MRC did not exist. At that time AmD was one of the recommended tuners so I went there. Later when Mihnea and Doug formed MRC and the forums were fairly alive with good reports of what they were doing with the 2.7 biturbo. You have met the guys yourself so must agree that they come across as genuine engineers and not salesmen. So I trust that when we do have our cars tuned at MRC we do get custom maps and they do provide something extra over the "off-the-shelf" maps which other tuners provide.

But back to your $64k question - do MRC get better results with a +16.5% pulley ratio than over in the US where there are lots of owners with dual pulley and around 25% ratio? I simply don't know. It seems to me that a lot of them are doing "mix and match" with their pulleys and ECU files and as such may not get the best results as if they might do with a custom tune. But then most of them care more about their drag strip time than dyno figures. We do know that APR have a turnkey solution, and their DP is +26.4% and reaches 474PS and 586Nm on 98RON. That seems comparable to MRC's package with only +16.5%, but then APR suggest figures of 505PS and 602Nm with just the addition of the ultracharger.

My gut says yes mapping is important, and that Mihnea is rather good at it.

 

[jdp1962]

Great analysis, @Dippy. My approach is slightly less scientific.

If we're talking metric, my 386.5BHP works out as 392PS.

If I then apply Top Gear maths to that, I will simply tell anyone who asks (that'll be no one so far) that my car has 400 horsepower.

 

[Cerbera9]

APR figures give some very interesting and different figures for single and dual pulley on different fuels on their website http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/pulley_30tfsi.html

I'm not sure I would call MRC's a true custom map but rather a generic map applied in the correct way. Please correct if I'm wrong but the majority of cars that go to them for their stage2 kit probably arrive standard and from there they are health checked and dyno'd. Then the induction modifcations and crank pulley are added before a base map is loaded on to the car and re-dyno'd. Now I'm sure that after all this time and have done many of these cars the base map has been refined and for a previous stock car is about 99% there. The fueling, AFR and timing are then checked to make sure they are within tolerance, maybe tweaked if necessary before the car is road tested to check the gearboox map is ok and everything is in order.
Personally I think MRC have a very good balanced package for the money. Changing just one pulley rather than two helps keep costs down and reduce labour time and by utilising the larger crank pulley they are able to find a sweet spot, spining the supercharger a little more to a ratio of 2.99, this seems to be about as far as is practible to go with the stock charge cooler. Using dual pulley's apparently does give an bump in mid range torque but also induces signicantly more heat due to the increase in boost. This combined with the induction mods and their very good map they are consistanly and repeatly able to produce very good figures, I know I'm happy with mine!

 

[Dippy]

To fully answer you I'd want your further explanation as to what you mean by "a generic map applied in the correct way"!
I have certainly read reports of where "distributors" have applied generic maps in the wrong way, but IIRC the wrong but has been something like trying to apply the map for a 2 litre 4-pot to a 3 litre V6!

If MRC didn't do custom maps then the reports of owners returning after say exhaust mods, for a "map tweak" would be untruths. Obviously MRC start with their "base" maps for a stage 2 car, but whereas other tuners would leave it at that, MRC will make adjustments, on the dyno, to optimise the map for that particular car. In my case I asked Doug to fit my Vdamper kit rather than MRC's own pulley. It turned out that there was a very slight difference in pulley diameter which they detected during tuning, and so Mihnea needed to adjust for it. I call that custom.

 

[Cerbera9]

Probabilty the majoirty of B8/B8.5's they take to Stage2 the cars are standard hence the statement thats a generic map applied in the correct way , ie the checked & dyno'd first then the map uploaded and finally the car is again checked, dyno'd and road tested. Something I'm sure not all mapping companies do.
As you have discribed yes MRC are able to further tailor their maps further to cars that have additional modifications, for instance a friend of mine fitted test pipe due to cat failure and the car then went back to MRC for the map to be checked and tweaked. This is one of the advantages of using MRC even though the list of tuning part/options for the B8/B8.5's is pretty limited compared to the likes of the S3/RS3/Golf R.

As mentioned earlier in this thread MRC are seening many of these S3/RS3/Golf R etc turning up with many different parts fitted each one different to the next. I've seen many different turbos fitted just by looking through their Facebook page not to mention the fueling, exhausts & intercoolers options etc each car may have. It then take considerable custom mapping to bring all these different components together on each car.

 

[jdp1962]

I don't know much about dynos but I do take an interest in torque curves. I only have a small selection of dyno graphs to compare, but there seems to be a pattern of differences between ones for the CREC engines and those from previous engines. It seems to me that the CREC torque curves are noticeably flatter, often not reaching the same peak as the previous engines, however the torque then tends to start falling off a bit later, from about 5k rpm. Jeff's first curve starts falling off before 5k but the second hangs on to well above 5k.

Jeff, the fact that a difference was seen with the uprated air filter suggests that you might get a bit more with further intake changes. However I doubt you'd really notice it in driving - just if you still want to chase numbers

@Dippy , remembering back to what you said here about the possibility of further gains with intake changes. I'm wondering if this might a worthwhile modest upgrade, in conjunction with the Revo filter and unmodified filter housing. Any thoughts?

 

[Dippy]

I still have the same thoughts - it might make a difference. In general it seems that stage 1 is done without intake changes. IIRC I have read the occasional report from owners who have had stage 2 without intake changes and their figures seem lower than those which have had the changes. But since a stage 2 increases the supercharger revs at 7k by 11% or more, it is understandable that a restricted airflow could affect those figures. Its a guess but I imagine that Audi designed the intake to cope with the flow rate for the supercharger with OE pulley ratio irrespective of the fact that the ECU would then bypass a lot of it. Also note that any restriction in the air intake will only have an impact at the top end. If you didn't have your gearbox remapped to raise the redline, and certainly if you don't tend to drive to the redline, then I don't think you'll benefit much.

I think the bottom line is that you already have around 50% of the power gain that your car is capable of, and are now used to that. So you will only really notice it if an additional gain is substantial. Adding 10% to the top end is going to be hard to notice when driving, you'd only notice it on a dyno readout. If you really want more, and want to feel it, I'd say you're best going to stage 2 including gearbox remap to raise the redline.

 

[jdp1962]

I still have the same thoughts - it might make a difference. In general it seems that stage 1 is done without intake changes. IIRC I have read the occasional report from owners who have had stage 2 without intake changes and their figures seem lower than those which have had the changes. But since a stage 2 increases the supercharger revs at 7k by 11% or more, it is understandable that a restricted airflow could affect those figures. Its a guess but I imagine that Audi designed the intake to cope with the flow rate for the supercharger with OE pulley ratio irrespective of the fact that the ECU would then bypass a lot of it. Also note that any restriction in the air intake will only have an impact at the top end. If you didn't have your gearbox remapped to raise the redline, and certainly if you don't tend to drive to the redline, then I don't think you'll benefit much.

I think the bottom line is that you already have around 50% of the power gain that your car is capable of, and are now used to that. So you will only really notice it if an additional gain is substantial. Adding 10% to the top end is going to be hard to notice when driving, you'd only notice it on a dyno readout. If you really want more, and want to feel it, I'd say you're best going to stage 2 including gearbox remap to raise the redline.

Thanks; food for thought, and as informative as always.

 

[jdp1962]

So, with the S4 within a few weeks of its third birthday, today was the day I invited back the detailer who prepared the car when I first took delivery of it. It's had the following:

• snow-foam treatment followed by two-bucket wash;
• clay-bar;
• two- stage machine polish to reomve the swirls that had built up over the years due to my well-inteioned but rather inexpert two-bucket technique;
• new application of GTechniq on bodywork, wheel and glass.

For most of the day, it remained doggedly cloudy, but just as the work was finishing, the sun finally burst through, albeit it was already dropping in the sky and heading behind the houses opposite. I'm as useless a photographer as I am car washer, so these are my best efforts with phone camera and DSLR to capture the car's shiny magnificence.

Next week, it's an engine oil & filter change, S-Tronic oil & filter change, MOT, fitment of Forge Motorsport intake, and the metal-pressed plates and holders I picked up today on the recommendation of @Hellz.

Two weeks after that, I pay the balloon payment, and it's mine.

I can't believe I've had this car three years; it's just flown by, certainly far more quickly than the three months I spent waiting for Audi to build it.

 

[rasA4]

looks brill Jeff

 

[scotty76]

Looking lovely @jdp1962!

 

[jdp1962]

looks brill Jeff

Thanks, mate.

 

[Bristle Hound]

So, with the S4 within a few weeks of its third birthday, today was the day I invited back the detailer who prepared the car when I first took delivery of it. It's had the following:

• snow-foam treatment followed by two-bucket wash;
• clay-bar;
• two- stage machine polish to reomve the swirls that had built up over the years due to my well-inteioned but rather inexpert two-bucket technique;
• new application of GTechniq on bodywork, wheel and glass.

For most of the day, it remained doggedly cloudy, but just as the work was finishing, the sun finally burst through, albeit it was already dropping in the sky and heading behind the houses opposite. I'm as useless a photographer as I am car washer, so these are my best efforts with phone camera and DSLR to capture the car's shiny magnificence.

View attachment 157235 View attachment 157236
View attachment 157235 View attachment 157236 View attachment 157237 View attachment 157238 View attachment 157239 View attachment 157240 View attachment 157241 View attachment 157242 View attachment 157243

Next week, it's an engine oil & filter change, S-Tronic oil & filter change, MOT, fitment of Forge Motorsport, and the metal-pressed plates and holders I picked up today on the recommendation of @Hellz.

Two weeks after that, I pay the balloon payment, and it's mine.

I can't believe I've had this car three years; it's just flown by, certainly far more quickly than the three months I spent waiting for Audi to build it.

@jdp1962 - S4 looks stunning Jeff. Very nice indeedy !

Unfortunately I can't say the same about that bloke in the window reflections tho' ...

 

[Hellz]

Good effort - very sleek, tidy, and shiny! Which holders did you go for? Looking forward to seeing some more pics once you have the new plates attached etc

 

[V6_Man]

So, with the S4 within a few weeks of its third birthday, today was the day I invited back the detailer who prepared the car when I first took delivery of it. It's had the following:

• snow-foam treatment followed by two-bucket wash;
• clay-bar;
• two- stage machine polish to reomve the swirls that had built up over the years due to my well-inteioned but rather inexpert two-bucket technique;
• new application of GTechniq on bodywork, wheel and glass.

For most of the day, it remained doggedly cloudy, but just as the work was finishing, the sun finally burst through, albeit it was already dropping in the sky and heading behind the houses opposite. I'm as useless a photographer as I am car washer, so these are my best efforts with phone camera and DSLR to capture the car's shiny magnificence.

View attachment 157235 View attachment 157236
View attachment 157235 View attachment 157236 View attachment 157237 View attachment 157238 View attachment 157239 View attachment 157240 View attachment 157241 View attachment 157242 View attachment 157243

Next week, it's an engine oil & filter change, S-Tronic oil & filter change, MOT, fitment of Forge Motorsport, and the metal-pressed plates and holders I picked up today on the recommendation of @Hellz.

Two weeks after that, I pay the balloon payment, and it's mine.

I can't believe I've had this car three years; it's just flown by, certainly far more quickly than the three months I spent waiting for Audi to build it.

S4 looking fab @jdp1962


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[Dippy]

I agree with the others - it looks great - almost as good as an S5!

 

[V6_Man]

I agree with the others - it looks great - almost as good as an S5!

and

 

[NevMan]

So, with the S4 within a few weeks of its third birthday, today was the day I invited back the detailer who prepared the car when I first took delivery of it. It's had the following:

• snow-foam treatment followed by two-bucket wash;
• clay-bar;
• two- stage machine polish to reomve the swirls that had built up over the years due to my well-inteioned but rather inexpert two-bucket technique;
• new application of GTechniq on bodywork, wheel and glass.

For most of the day, it remained doggedly cloudy, but just as the work was finishing, the sun finally burst through, albeit it was already dropping in the sky and heading behind the houses opposite. I'm as useless a photographer as I am car washer, so these are my best efforts with phone camera and DSLR to capture the car's shiny magnificence.

View attachment 157235 View attachment 157236
View attachment 157235 View attachment 157236 View attachment 157237 View attachment 157238 View attachment 157239 View attachment 157240 View attachment 157241 View attachment 157242 View attachment 157243

Next week, it's an engine oil & filter change, S-Tronic oil & filter change, MOT, fitment of Forge Motorsport intake, and the metal-pressed plates and holders I picked up today on the recommendation of @Hellz.

Two weeks after that, I pay the balloon payment, and it's mine.

I can't believe I've had this car three years; it's just flown by, certainly far more quickly than the three months I spent waiting for Audi to build it.

Looks better than new, a well looked after S4 clearly


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[jdp1962]

Just checked my headlamp washers, as advised by @Dippy , seeing as my warranty will soon expire.

All's well.

 

[jdp1962]

My new plates are on. No longer am I paying to advertise the egregious experience offered by Bexley Audi.

New pressed metal plates from here, plus holders bought on eBay, as recommended by @Hellz.

 

[Hellz]

Good effort mate - lookin' good

 

[V6_Man]

My new plates are on. No longer am I paying to advertise the egregious experience offered by Bexley Audi.

New pressed metal plates from here, plus holders bought on eBay, as recommended by @Hellz.

View attachment 157418 View attachment 157419

You've made me think about these plates @jdp1962. Looking really good


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[jdp1962]

And now this is on:

 

[V6_Man]

And now this is on:

View attachment 157932

Little bit of bling . What are your first impressions, thoughts @jdp1962. Notice any difference.


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[jdp1962]

Little bit of bling . What are your first impressions, thoughts @jdp1962. Notice any difference.


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Hey, Tashfeen, , all I’ve done so far is burble up the A2 to work and back at 50mph. The butt dyno seems to suggest better pickup at low revs, but that could be entirely subjective. Got a 350 mile drive up to the Northumberland coast tomorrow so the butt dyno might say more. You’ll have to wait for more news however; I’m going to be staying in a tiny village with minimal mobile signal. Let’s hope the holiday cottage has wifi!

 

[V6_Man]

Hey, Tashfeen, , all I’ve done so far is burble up the A2 to work and back at 50mph. The butt dyno seems to suggest better pickup at low revs, but that could be entirely subjective. Got a 350 mile drive up to the Northumberland coast tomorrow so the butt dyno might say more. You’ll have to wait for more news however; I’m going to be staying in a tiny village with minimal mobile signal. Let’s hope the holiday cottage has wifi!

The only Dyno that never lies . Enjoy your trip mate

Sometimes having no WiFi is a blessing. We've recently introduced a no WiFi day a week in the house and both my wife and I 'sleep' early that night

On a separate note, did you manage to find the CF mirror covers?


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[jdp1962]

Tashfeen, post: 3269081, member: 116978"]On a separate note, did you manage to find the CF mirror covers?

Didn't pursue it in the end.

 

[jdp1962]

both my wife and I 'sleep' early that night

Errr..too much information?!

 

[scotty76]

I'd agree no WiFi is good sometimes. Amuses me when I read TripAdvisor reviews that say "no WiFi at the pool only in reception ". Err you're on holiday?! At reception is fine for the odd catch up but if you need fast Internet just stay home.

 

[scotty76]

Does the induction noise sound any different @jdp1962? I fancy a bit more supercharger noise without staying into Mad Max territory.

 

[jdp1962]

Does the induction noise sound any different @jdp1962? I fancy a bit more supercharger noise without staying into Mad Max territory.

I'll let you know after I've given it the beans up the A1, always assuming I can hear it over the noise of Storm Henry.

 

[V6_Man]

Does the induction noise sound any different @jdp1962? I fancy a bit more supercharger noise without staying into Mad Max territory.

You will be able to hear the supercharger better with this @scotty76. I'd say go for it.


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