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Issue with non-factory RNS-E installation

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by el_topo, May 24, 2009.

  1. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 24, 2009]
    Note: this was previously posted to the I.C.E. subforum, but since it is a B7 I thought I'd also post it here.

    Hello everyone. I have an issue with the non-factory installation of an RNS-E unit I purchased from eBay in a B7 (2005.5) A4. The unit works, it's starting to get its bearings (although it did incorrectly think I was driving across a park earlier), and it looks pretty damn good.

    However, I'm getting no sound from the rear speakers. When I get in the car and the electrics are on I only hear a quiet clicking noise coming from the rear door speakers. :( When the interior light goes out so does the noise, so I think it's safe to leave the unit installed for now.

    Now as far as I know I do not have the Bose amp installed, and that's what I told the ebay seller when I bought the unit so he could give me the right adapter. However I could be wrong -- I bought the car used from an Audi dealer, but the guy couldn't tell me if it had the Symphony or Symphony II stereo installed (which is slightly odd). Could the root of the problem be that I do in fact have the Bose system installed but ordered the wrong cable, or is it that the seller sent me a Bose adapter for my non-Bose car?

    The car is a B7 (2005.5) A4 with the Premium (sunroof) and Sport options packages.
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  3. NHN
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    [May 24, 2009]
    Welcome to the site.

    Andymac is the best person to help you on the Ice forum, but your best is to check the pins of your old unit against the pins of the new one & map it out on the adapter to see if the pins match up correctly, you'd know if you have Bose cause the speaker grills will have a Bose logo on them mate.

    Check the labels on top of the old unit & new unit for pin outs then you can check the adapter, it is easy enough & wont take you long & moving pins is easy as long as same size pins in new locations of course.
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  4. blackpool1974
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    blackpool1974 Member VCDS Map User

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    [May 24, 2009]
    Hi,

    I will jump in before the experts arrive

    1. If you had Bose, it will have a Bose logo on your door speakers
    2. The difference in the cabling for a non Bose and Bose cable is literally 1 wire going to a different pin, so dont worry on that score

    It does sound to me like you have Bose

    Have you got the quadlock wiring all ready (big square) or 3 different adapters

    check out the wiring on this website http://www.nsxjr.com/downloads.html
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  5. PetrolDave
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    PetrolDave Well-Known Member

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    [May 24, 2009]
    Since both Bose and non-Bose have a rear amplifier that's not the issue here.

    It sounds to me like the adapter has been wired incorrectly (many are) and the amp enable pin isn't connected through. Try looking at www.audiforum.us - problems like this have been covered many times in the RNS-E forum there.
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  6. NHN
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    [May 24, 2009]
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  7. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 24, 2009]
    I've had another look at the (removed) Symphony II unit, and in the pin-out diagram for the bottom connector (next to the 10A fuse) I do have a pin marked as "BOSE". I'll be slipping out the RNS-E and double-checking the connector cable from the car to see if it has a pin in that location.

    If it does, that would mean that my car does have a Bose amp for the rear speakers and that I ordered the incorrect adapter... is that a correct assumption? It's strange because I didn't see the Bose logo on any of the speakers, and it doesn't sound like Bose to put out a product that doesn't have their name displayed on it in great big letters.
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  8. NHN
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    [May 24, 2009]
    If you dont have Bose logo'd speaker grills then its doubtful you'll have Bose on your car, just check pin to pin from old unit to new on the adapter, I reckon its just wired wrong & you can move pins about with a small screwdriver on the quadlock
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  9. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 25, 2009]
    As it turns out the adapter the guy sent me was Bose-enabled (connector has the Bose pin), despite my asking him specifically for non-Bose. I think I'd better get the replacement from Navparts if I want to be sure I'm getting the right one. For now I've put the Symphony II back in place.
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  10. NHN
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    [May 25, 2009]
    All you need to do is remap the pins, you dont need a new adapter, of course thats upto you but as Dave's said you have an amp anyway & means the speakers run to the amp direct & the head unit supplies 1 wire feed to the amp for each speaker area & couple of other wires to signal power on & ground etc, but I cant see why you cant make it work cause the Bose amps wired the same anyway & just has an extra wire to turn the Bose equalizer features on.
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  11. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 25, 2009]
    True, but when it comes to doing wiring myself I get a horrific vision of me going to the garage in the morning and finding that my car is on fire...

    I think it's best if I order one made by someone who knows what he's doing, preferably someone in a country that's already aware of the high consequences of product safety litigation. Just to be on the safe side. :blush:
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  12. PetrolDave
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    PetrolDave Well-Known Member

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    [May 25, 2009]
    Given the number of incorrectly wired adapters I've heard about over the last 4 years, I think the best person to get it right is yourself ... because it matters to you that it's right!
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  13. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 25, 2009]
    Given that Navparts don't quite seem to realize that places exist outside the US (can't get a shipping quote to Canada) I may have to go the DIY route... I looked up Euro-parts as well but everything seems to be out of stock or backordered.

    I'm using this PDF to get a grip on the subject matter. Is it as simple a matter as modifying the connections on the adapter to mirror those I see on the car cables? I'm really a newB at this :unsure:
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  14. NHN
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    [May 25, 2009]
    All you need to do is go pin by pin & match it up from old unit to new & then check the adapter to make sure it corresponds, it really is very simple mate newb or not, just do it yourself cause when done & fixed feels you full of confidence for other things, just take your time, patients & always double check your work.
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  15. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 26, 2009]
    I've got the adapter split up in front of me now. It doesn't seem too daunting -- as far as I know I only have three wires to disconnect, and I have to open up the D and A connectors (acc. to the aforementioned PDF) that were blocked. As it turns out that's an easy way to tell if you were sold a Bose connector (A connector is not used if you have Bose). Basically, remove the Bose ground, expose the power and front speaker leads on harness-A and B, and remove the wires linking I-4 and I-5 to C-3 and C-9 (used for the front speakers on Bose systems).

    The only curious thing at this point is that the Bose-Ground wire (III-1) should be going to B7 on the adapter, but it doesn't. It's routed to B3 instead ("speed signal" in the PDF). Messy Eastern European wiring (I got the nav package from Poland)?.. The PDF says about this wire (harness C3) to "tap into cluster blue t32/pin 31(4B0 units)". Anyone know what that means? Using a bit of logic I imagine that this is how the ECU communicates the current vehicle speed to the nav unit (?) and that it must be connected directly to the electrical panel behind the panel on the driver's side door, but this is definitely something I won't be doing tonight.
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  16. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 26, 2009]
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  17. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 26, 2009]
    After testing out my handiwork, I've failed. "Ambitious but rubbish" I guess. The issue persists with the rear speakers. Either the adapter was so badly put together it can't be saved (I saw two instances of two leads going to the same pin on the power connector) or there's actually something wrong with the rns-e. I'll drop by my dealership tomorrow and see if they have an adapter that's actually properly put together, or try and get it from NavParts.
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  18. NHN
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    [May 26, 2009]
    Dealer more than likely wont have adapters mate, have you got images of the adapter each ends please, PM if like close ups so maybe we can see the issue at hand, worth a try, also have you been able to test the rns in another audi so it discounts this, anyone with an exiting rns can test for you with radio keys, make sure you have both pin codes though just incase even if it does remember your 1st radio, better safe than sorry.

    Yes you would get 2 wires onto 1 pin eg. power & ground, so this isnt or shouldnt be the issue.

    You can remove the bose pin anyway as the amp still functions without it so speakers should be working all round, then relocate that pin to the correct location for the rns.
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  19. NHN
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    [May 26, 2009]
    Ok 1st of all which unit did you have originally, picture would be good.

    2nd is there any wires going into connector A when the adapters in place cause this would suggest just front passive speakers but you have said rears were ok, hey its been known to think there are rears but turned out there wasnt, lol.

    3rd If no bose speaker grills then disconnect the bose pin & tape it up

    4th if nothing in A then you need to check the speaker feeds & the amp power feeds as below in red:

    A: Speaker Connecter (front passive speakers)
    1 - N.C. (NC = Not Connected)
    2 - Right Front (+) (ok)
    3 - Left Front (+) (ok)
    4 - N.C.
    5 - N.C.
    6 - Right Front (-) (ok)
    7 - Left Front (-) (ok)

    B. EXT Control Connector (CD Changer, PhatBox, OEM SAT tuner, Dension IceLink etc.)
    1 - Most Ring break (Used for MOST network diagnostics to "break" the MOST ring; This will never be used in any RNS-E install to date)
    2 - CDC-NF GND (audio ground for CD changer; this should NOT be connected to any chassis ground source)
    3 - V-Signal (analog speed signal or GALA in B5, C5 and D2 chassis)
    4 - U14R-2 (Constant power source for CD changer, phatbox, oem or aftermarket ipod interface etc)
    5 - K-Line (K-line diagnostic; needed to configure your RNS-E via a VAGCOM)
    6 - CDC-Data out (ok)
    7 - *BOSE Pin (used if you have a Bose system)
    8 - CDC-NF L.IN (ok)
    9 - CDC-NF R. IN (ok)
    10 - U14 ST CDC (Ignition/accessory power for CD changer, phatbox, oem or aftermarket ipod interface etc)
    11 - CDC -Data IN (ok)
    12 - CDC- Data CLK (ok)
    *The Bose pin was commonly found in the B6/B7 A4s, C5 A6 and D2 A8's with a model year of 2002+. This should be connected to the bose pin in your factory harness. Per Lee Hicks (NSX Jr): This should be connected to ground if you have a BOSE system. I tried it both ways, and it sounds WAY better when grounded... obviously only if you have the BOSE system. By grounding, you tell the RNS to use a different audio equalization and processing before it sends out the signals to the amp.

    C: EXT Control Connector (For Bose or Non-Bose Amp, telephone interface)
    1 - **MIC IN (-) (Used for OEM Bluetooth kit when SDS is factory installed)
    2 - *RFSL (Analog reverse signal)
    3 - Line Out FL (front left audio signal)
    4 - **MIC Out (-) (Used for OEM Bluetooth kit when SDS is factory installed)
    5 - Line Out RL (rear left audio signal)
    6 - TEL NF IN (-) (Telephone speaker negative input)
    7 - **MIC IN (+) (Used for OEM Bluetooth kit when SDS is factory installed)
    8 - Line Out GND (audio ground)
    9 - Line Out FR (front rear audio signal)
    10 - **MIC Out (+) (Used for OEM Bluetooth kit when SDS is factory installed)
    11 - Line Out RR (rear right audio signal)
    12 TEL NF IN (+) (Telephone speaker positive input)
    *Reverse wire: C5 A6, B5 A4/S4 and D2 A8 use an analog signal for reverse. Most harnesses won't have this connection available...so you will need to add a female pin/wire (part#000-979-009) and route it to reverse signal near the drivers' side lower dash area (see www.nsxjr.com for location of reverse signal in a C5 A6).
    **SDS (Speach Dialog System) will need to be factory installed (found in B7 A4/S4 for example) in order to take advantage of these mic in/out wires. If no SDS, then you will connect the mic wires directly between your OEM bluetooth kit and the BT mic that you install near your sunroof controls.

    D: Power Connector
    9 - CAN-H (CANbus High signal)
    10 - CAN-L (CANbus Low signal)
    11 - TEL-Mute (Telephone mute connection)
    12 - Kl.31 (Primary ground connection)
    13 - U14 ST DSP (Radio On) (Provides a switched ignition-out source to turn on rear amplifier (bose too) or "remote" lead for an aftermarket amp)
    *14 - DWA-GND (Alarm ground)
    15 - Kl.30 (Constant 12V power source)
    16 - U14R-1 (N.C.)
    *This is the Alarm-GND pin. This pin should be connected to Connector I, pin 2 from symphony II radio harness, or to the large brown single pin connector from behind the symphony I radio (see the pdf docs on www.nsxjr.com for related pictures). Chances are, you will need to add this female wire/pin (audi part#000-979-133) to your plug/play harness and and male wire/pin (sorry, no audi part# for this; some of us will have extra's laying around).
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  20. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 27, 2009]
    There's no point refusing to try :) so here goes.

    I definitely have rear speakers (2 on each door + a subwoofer on the rear shelf) and they work with the SymII (tested by playing with the fader control). There are no Bose logos in sight so I'm confident at this point that I don't have the Bose amp.

    At this point I may as well list the pins on the car radio wires, because they seem to indicate a conflict with the list of pinouts listed in the previous message. I'll use the diagrams shown in page 2 of this PDF file so we have a common point of reference. So III-1 would mean the car pin connects to connector III pin 1 on the Symphony II diagram.

    On connector I (the big one):
    I-1, I-2, I-3, I-6, I-7, I-12..

    Connector II (front speakers, directly mapped to connector A on the harness):
    II-3, II-4, II-5, II-6. Standard setup for non-Bose systems AFAIK.

    Connector III:
    III-2, III-3, III-7, III-8

    Connector IV: unused. There are only 3 cables going to the Sym, and they fit connectors I, II and III.

    That's it for the car (besides the diversity and FM antenna which are not a concern).

    Now, for the adapter wiring itself.
    On connector A, the front speakers:
    A2->II-6 (Right front (+), incorrect)
    A3->II-4 (Left front (+), incorrect)
    A6->II-5 (Right front (-), incorrect)
    A7->II-3 (Left front (-), incorrect)
    The polarity is incorrect, but it seems to be incorrect evenly, not sure if this could be an issue.
    Update: I have corrected the wiring on A. I think it may originally have been done with one of the connectors upside-down.

    Connector B:
    B1: empty
    B2->I-18 (CD changer ground, correct)
    B3: empty
    B4: empty
    B5->III-3 ("K diagnostic", correct)
    B6->I-14 (CDC data, correct)
    B7: now empty (Bose ground wire), was present originally but removed.
    B8->I-20 (CDC audio, correct)
    B9->I-19 (CDC audio, correct)
    B10->I-17 (CDC power, correct)
    B11->I-13 (CDC data, correct)
    B12->I-15 (CDC data, correct)

    Connector C:
    C1: not in use
    C2: not in use
    C3: now empty (originally there was a connection to I-4, but since the car cable does not have a pin at I-4 the wire was removed)
    C4: not in use
    C5->I-1 (line out RL, correct)
    C6->IV-4 (Telephone audio in (-), correct)
    C7: not in use
    C8->I-3 (Line out GND, correct)
    C9: now empty (originally there was a connection to I-5, but since the car cable does not have pins at I-5 the wire was removed)
    C10: not in use
    C11->I-2 (line out RR, correct)
    C12->IV-3 (telephone audio in (+), correct)

    Connector D (this is where I think there may be issues):
    D9->I-7 (Infotainment bus H, correct)
    D10->I-12 (infotainment bus L, correct)
    D11->IV-1 (Telephone - mute, correct) AND III-2 (alarm ground, incorrect). There are literally two wires crammed into D11. The second connection should go to D14, which is not in use.
    D12->III-8 (main ground, correct) AND I-18 (CDC ground, incorrect). It's a unique case in that D12 has two wires and I-18 also has two wires. The CD changer, if I had one, would be grounded twice, but since I don't have one I'll feel free to ignore that.
    D13->I-6 (Amp turn on, correct)
    D14: Not in use, should link to III-2
    D15->III-7 (12v, correct) AND I-16 (12V, incorrect, should link with B4 but they're both +12v)
    D16: not in use.

    At this point I'd like to strip out the double connections in the D connector but I don't have the correct tool to do this. Does anyone know what the name of this particular connector type is (see photo below, sorry for the crappy webcam quality)?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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  21. el_topo
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    el_topo New Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    I'm starting to think that the amp just isn't getting switched on -- perhaps a bad lead on D13/I6, resulting in the line-out signal being sent through to the speakers that then don't know what to do with the signal. I would still have to undo the double connections on the D connector, but I'll also have to replace the amp-on lead.
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  22. NHN
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    [Sep 14, 2009]
    Did you get any further with this?
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