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Intercooler Opinions

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by grathies, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 21, 2007]
    Right, I have a 2001 FaceLift S3, fully converted by QST to the 350/330 MTM Spec

    Still runs the standard twin intercoolers, was considering going for a FMIC from Forge, but have been told that Im better off sticking with the standard ones with this sorta setup as it cools the boost perfectly for what its needed

    With my old 16vT Mk2 Golf I noticed a difference when changing to a larger FMIC, so was thinking this would be a good idea. But boost cooling on the 5vT/20vT engines isnt something in my area of knowledge

    What would you all reccomend?
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  3. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Sep 21, 2007]
    you need a fmic to make anywhere near 350bhp!
    #2
  4. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 21, 2007]
    agree with Edwardo
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  5. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 21, 2007]
    You could easily make 350Bhp without a FMIC.

    Then on the next run it'd be 300Bhp and the run after that 250Bhp. And so on.
    #4
  6. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 21, 2007]
    All I know is I have the dyno-readout showing that power.

    How about some usefull input?
    #5
  7. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 21, 2007]
    It depends, are you prepared to source and do your own pipe runs?

    The prebuilt Allard and Forge and such like FMICs are £800 but are plug and play.

    However, you can buy a core that pipework that will perform better than all of the above for £350ish imported from the USA.

    Do a search on VWVortex for eBay FMIC and bear in mind your run may e slightly different due to the different location of the throttle body...
    #6
  8. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Sep 22, 2007]
    i was told by APS when having mine done that you will really struggle to get 350bhp with out a fmic, best you would get woud probablly be 330bhp tbh!
    #7
  9. CLS3
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    CLS3 Every penny goes on the Audi!!

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    [Sep 22, 2007]
    I know of plenty of 20vT's running 350+bhp with the standard side mount intercoolers. Chris from Regal Autosport who has just sold his S3 was running 380+bhp with standard side mounts, and with more software upgrades he would have been running 400+.
    #8
  10. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    Thanks mate, thats the sort of positive input Ive been looking for!

    I know that QST seemed to reccomend the standard setup as good enough! What are Regal like? Pompey lad here and I know they were alright with thier Vaux engines, seen a few mental Novas with C20LET's/20XE's that can wipe the smile off many a face

    Thanks again mate, youve put a smile back on my face!
    APS may say you wont get 350 BUT (and I stress the BUT) why would they say you can if they can make some extra money off you they will!
    #9
  11. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    You can easily make that power with SMICs, you just get heatsoak very, VERY quick.

    On a warm day, one 2 min blast and suddenly you're 50% down on power.

    FMICs are nothing, absolutely nothing to do with peak power, they are all about sustaining that peak power.

    They way a FMIC works is exactly the same on every single car, it cools charged air to keep the cold, dense air going into the intake.

    Feel your charge pipes once you've gone for a hard run, can you touch it?
    #10
  12. Backdraft Motorsport
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    Backdraft Motorsport 1.8T & 2.0TFSi Specialists Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    People get confused with the FMIC.
    A larger diameter FMIC and link pipework will flow the charge pressure easier. This doesn't mean that you cant get the power to flow through the standard twin side mount setup its just easier.
    The next thing is that you are trying to flow more charge air through them now than standard which in itself will create heat.
    However, it really depends what you want to do with your car. If you just drive your car on a rolling road all day a FMIC will be needed.
    If you drive on the open road at reasonable speed with lots of cool air flowing through the standard intercoolers you will be fine.
    Slower twisty roads or the race track create less air flow so a FMIC will definately help.
    So yes you can definately flow 350 BHP throgh standard intercoolers, we know because we do. However, if you drive hard on twisty roads or in traffic or the race track, a FMIC will hep keep the intake temps down and the power up, for longer.
    Hope that helps you make your decision.
    Kind Regards,
    mark. Backdraft Motorsport.
    #11
  13. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    Yes, Im a Sado-Massachist
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  14. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    In which case your SMIC's are not working correctly then.

    I have a 255Bhp K03s car with FMIC. I have posted graphs, etc all kinds on here, my charge temps never go past 40 degrees and thus my charge pipes never get too hot to touch.
    #13
  15. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    mine are always cool even after a ive been giving it some!
    #14
  16. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    I never said that I couldnt touch them!

    Thanks for your reply Backdraft :)
    #15
  17. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    Perhaps you should do some investigation as to what and how intercoolers do what they do.

    You seem to be thanking the people that agree with your way of thinking, instead of taking into account the actual real world experience of those of us that have them and have done investigation into the various options.

    Have you actually done any VAG-COM logs to see that your intake temps are?
    #16
  18. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    Im blissfully aware of how they do what they do, BUT was trying to see what the general concensus on if the twin setup is on a level with a single front mount for what I need it for without people trying to sound patronising and condesending.

    Hence Ive thanked the people that have actually given me INFORMATION :)
    #17
  19. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    Why dont you start from the beginning and log some temperatures using vag-com, that way, you'd know for sure if your twin side mount was adequate.

    If your main usage will be fast road, the car will never see the need for a FMIC due to its usage type.

    That said, if you track it, or intend to do prolonged hard driving, you'll probably see the advantages of a FMIC.

    Do a search, theres a lot of information on intercoolers, and it looks like you need to do some learning.
    #18
  20. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Sep 23, 2007]
    Right, to start with the helpfulness,

    I imported this FMIC from the USA, it cost under £300 fully declared and I paid import, VAT and a £20 customs charge.

    You would need a slightly different pipe run due to the throttle body being on the right hand side on the S3. You can get the same core as I got with twin side mounted in/out charge pipes, so that might help. Anyway, Core, plus pipes, plus silicone and all fasteners was cheap, so you could search the website and see if something suitable is on there.

    You can get them from:
    Godpseed
    CG Racing
    Tuner Stop

    Anyway, I took it for a hard 20 minute run and then mapped intake temperatures for 10 minutes. It seemed to hover around 28 degrees centigrade (83 degrees fahrenheit).
    Ambient temp was 18 degrees (65F).



    [​IMG]
    #19
  21. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    [Sep 30, 2007]
    Right first of all, no thanks for that, I have a Patronising Filter fitted as standard so thats not getting thru!

    But thank you for the other post, thats the sort of usefull information I was hoping to find on here :) Youve reversed the lacking faith I had in this forum after joining.

    I mainly do alot of hard road driving, like between Fareham and Alton down the old A32, fast sweeping bends cut with some sprinting straights. I like my urban driving quite alot if Im honest. Either that or going to see my girlfriend in traffic.

    Think I may go for a FMIC for the option of using it for track use, only to chase my mates as I dont see what driving fast round a track with no unknown factors proves about your driving skills but thats just me!

    Thanks once again for the usefull addition tho mate, its appreciated
    #20
  22. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Sep 30, 2007]
    People need to remember that ICs cool hot air.
    Turbos make the inlet charge hot by compressing it...
    The smaller the compressor, and the higher the boost, the hotter the charged air...
    A K04 running 1.6+ bar, in my view, needs a FMIC to stop you menting the engine (or to stop the protection winding back the timing to protect the engine)

    So, if you run a very large turbo, you won't be heating up the charge much, so you don't need an efficient FMIC.

    The bigger the turbo, the less the temperature for the given boost, for a fixed sized engine, and all that...but you get lag measured using a sundial!

    The solution, for a 350 BHP engine, is to fit a turbo small enough to not produce too much lag but big enough to not produce silly charge temperatures.

    To say for sure if a FMIC is 'needed' to make the power, you'd need to know the turbo spec as used, would you not?

    Regardless, personally, I'd fit one to maintain the BHP, as has already been suggested...but does it need one, probably not.
    #21
  23. aidank1981
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    aidank1981 Member

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    [Oct 1, 2007]
    hey all, sorry for hijacking the thread but grathies seems happen enough,

    with all the above taken into account and the 'need' for a FMIC discussed what would be the noticable benifits (if any) of fitting one to a re-mapped car? i may go down the turbo converstion road but could do it step by step by getting a FMIC for the meantime?

    would it be a waist on time pre conversion?
    #22
  24. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Oct 1, 2007]
    Yes, you'll see benefits...

    your car will heat soak less...so it'll make the power it does for longer, as opposed to the power dropping off as the heat in the engine (manifolds, IC, pipework etc) heats up....hence it'll make the same good power even on a hot day.

    You'll not make any more power, but you'll keep what you have, if that makes sense.
    #23

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