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INLET MANIFOLD MOTOR bank1 and bank2 OFF MY 3.0L TDI

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by johnmandy, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 15, 2011]
    I posted a topic some weeks ago on the problem i have with both inlet manifold motors on bank 1 and 2 of my v6 tdi.
    Anyway i know bank 2 inlet manifold motor is working correctly, but as detached from the flap assembly, and looks sheared.
    Bank 1 motor seems to have fried due to it being positioned almost next to the turbo, seems that this is developing into a common fault on the 3.0l tdi's on different marques.

    Now my question, are the motors identical, or are they handed, i don,t really want to go and strip everything down, just to find they are not inter-changeable. If i am able to swap them,at least in the short term i get 1 bank working correctly.

    Although both inlet manifold motors are inoperable at the moment, i believe the manifold flaps are permenantly left fully open, probably by means of a spring, and this in turn causes no problems with the car, my fuel readings are more or less still the same, but i might be loosing a few horses at the minimum, so i am in no rush to get it repaired...... especially as Audi want a whooping £1800, but that includes new inlet manifolds.

    Heres hoping someone may just know a little on the 3.0 litre TDI,S........, AND IF SO THANKS IN HAND.


    JOHN
    #1
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  3. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 15, 2011]
    They are handed. 373.03 plus vat retail last time we changed one. Part only
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  4. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 15, 2011]
    Thanks Chris, last time i talked to Cardiff Audi they gave me the impression that they were the same, part number as well, i looked at the motors in my car, but it was difficult to get a proper perspective because one sits about 90 degrees to the other.
    Its my guess the that Audi have got it wrong.

    Back to the drawing board then , but thanks anyway.

    john
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  5. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 15, 2011]
    We change no end of these. They have always been sided. We charge about 550 each manifold where we are in Leicester.
    #4
  6. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 15, 2011]
    Hi again chris,
    Regarding my earlier post, i can just change the motor on bank 1, nearest the turbo, well i think thats bank 1, but i could be wrong.
    But bank 2 is my real problem, the motor seems 100%, but as detached from the manifold, but not in the way you would think, its actually i think sheared from the inlet flap spindle, the connecting rod seems ok...... when i look down on it, i can see a small block attached to the other end of the rod, this in turn keys into the manifold assembly..... but on mine its just dettached, strangely this happened the same day to the minute hereford audi carried out a service.
    So i take it the price for fitting the motor is as stated, and does not include the inlet manifold assemble, please advise.
    what would the price be if i need an inlet manifold minus the motor fitted.

    john
    #5
  7. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    I think the manifolds are complete with motors etc. I'm sure they are. I'm off work at min but I'm sure that's the case. With extra ancillaries and Audi labour rate it's gonna be 1500 I bet.
    #6
  8. hazey7
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    hazey7 Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    I also have the dreaded intake manifold runner fault:INT MAN RUNNER B2 LOWER LIMIT NOT REACHED fault code.....

    So, according to the Independent garage, to fix this tiny fault costs £1200 in parts plus one or two hours labour.

    Searching the web finds lots of people ignoring the problem and continuing to drive around. Others say why can't you just replace the runner motor(s) rather than the whole manifold? Can't find anyone who has just replaced the motors and that definitely fixed it.

    Why do you have to replace the whole manifold when changing the motor? I also believe the common problem is little plastic rods breaking rather than the actual motors.....

    These things breaking down between 60 and 80K miles seems like a real weak point with this engine. Does that mean they'll also break down at 120 / 140K miles?

    With the the cost of this job and the cost of turbo's - which also never seem to last the life of the engine/car, thats two massive bills that put me off keeping this car.....


    #7
  9. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    It generally is the Rods that break. You can clear these faults and they can stay out for weeks. we went through a stage of these changed about 6 in a week or 2
    #8
  10. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    What are the symptoms of these breaking? Can you only tell on VCDS?? I had mine scanned at 115k with no faults, so mileage obviously isn't the main issue.
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  11. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    If they make no difference to performance or economy, why not just remove the flaps and blank any holes left in the manifold??? That's what loads of people did on the BMW diesel engines because they had a similar problem. If mine ever went, that's what I'll be doing and not paying ££££ for something that makes no difference.
    You could always get your car mapped after to get it running perfectly and still be quids in!!
    Just a thought. :hi:
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  12. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    Symptoms none really. Warning light on dash is only symptom really. Seem to run ok
    #11
  13. hazey7
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    hazey7 Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    Chrisa4quat, do you know how the broken rod feeds back to the ECU that its 'in fault'? is it a microswitch or a potentiometer? Can it be gagged/shorted out to get the light out just for that particular fault?
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  14. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    I bet they are only there to lower the emissions on manufacture or something similar.

    Hazey, I'd just bin them and save the dollar mate. I'm sure the fault could be mapped out, so you don't get a light on.
    #13
  15. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    I don't know how it feeds back to be fair. I heard one of my customers screwed the rod back on or did summat that eliminated the problem. How easy this is to do I don't know. This is why I went for a 2.0t instead of 2.0 or 3.0tdi's.
    #14
  16. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 16, 2011]
    Just as a rider to my topic,
    If you have any of the above problems, and of course the emissions light coming on, there is a way, at least there is on on my car to drive it without looking at the dreaded emissions warning light, By chance i noticed if i stopped and then started the car 5 times it would stop the emissions light coming on, but too be honest that puts a lot of strain on the battery, starter motor, glow plugs etc, so taking that logic a bit further i just turn the key to the last but one position without starting, again 5 times and yes that works as well.

    Not a permenant fix, but hey no looking at a light thats going to cost you in excess of £2000 to put out, and has no real effect on performance or economy.
    I will probably in time go some way to repair the fault, but not on audi's terms and a cost £2000 for little return.

    john
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  17. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Nov 17, 2011]
    im pretty sure the motors arnt sided. they look it till you take them off then its obvious one is upside down to the other. changed one last week on a 2.7 bpp engine.
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  18. chrisa4quat
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    chrisa4quat Member

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    [Nov 17, 2011]
    I think the part numbers are 059129711 and 712. Not sure on letters. Br springs to mind
    #17
  19. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 17, 2011]
    That ties up with audi's answer given to me some months ago, Maybe i'll take them off and look, unless someone on the forum as a definete answer.

    john
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  20. OxfordRich
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    OxfordRich Collecting Rings

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    [Nov 17, 2011]
    The swirl flaps are supposed to improve fuel efficiency and provide some extra low down torque.. The 2.0t fsi has something similar to disrupt airflow for low down torque as well. Looks like this issue might have been fixed for newer cars, the parts are revised I believe.
    #19
  21. bdub
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    bdub Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    You can buy just the motors for about £180 from audi, But if you need the rod or the flap section you have to buy the whole part. @£380 plus vat. The effect of them being broken is less torque higher up the rev range and an increase in MPG - is what my research uncovered.

    I took one off to examine although not broken and not a difficult job. but the spindle shaft ( metal) is over coated with plastic and worn. The ball and linkage from the motor also worn so lots of backlash in the assembly.

    The whole assembly was full of black **** from the EGR feedback system and the inlet ports partially restricted with it so it was worth it just to clean it out.
    #20
  22. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    Hi bdub,

    Would that price apply to the 3.0 litre tdi tdv, or do they very.
    As stated earlier, i wouldn,t bother changing them, its only the emmisions light coming on intermitantly that makes the effort worthwhile.
    Does the £380 cover both motor and manifold.

    thanks john
    #21
  23. bdub
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    bdub Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    Yes - £380 was the price I was quoted 2 weeks ago from TPS ( the VW trade part specialists ) .
    this price included the flap section and the motors. This was for my 3.0tdiTDV 233bhp 2007 model.

    I will be forking out and replacing the worn one on mine, even though it still works there is loads of play in it and it will go eventually the other one was replaced under warranty at 78k miles and that one is fine, having now done 110k.

    Audi dealer did indicate they would contribute to the cost but I figured either way Ill either end up paying for the parts or the labour and either way it will be over £300 so may as well do it myself.
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  24. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    I don't understand why you'd replace them if it's not under warranty??? Remove them, get it mapped to compensate for any torque and mpg loss for around £250 or replace them for 3 or 4 times that price, just for them to go again in as little as 60k?? Is it just me???
    #23
  25. bdub
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    bdub Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    I have not really looked in to that much - what i figured was if it were that simple Audi wouldnt waste money in the first place fitting them. if you remove them and remap, there will be too much air at low revs meaning more fuel required, so less MPG.

    I'd rather it remained standard.

    Open to discussin though - interesting points being made.
    #24
  26. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    I don't think you're right there mate but that's just my opinion. What figures did you come up with on the torque and mpg when you did your research???
    This is the first I've heard of this problem, so the only thing I can compare it to is BM's that had the same/similar problem and when they were removed, there was no difference whatsoever. Like I said in an earlier post, it's probably to do with emissions during design.
    I understand you want to return it to standard but if you want to waste upwards of a grand on something noone will ever know about, each to their own.
    That's just my opinion.
    #25
  27. johnmandy
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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    Hi all

    Didn,t i read somewhere on the forum that audi developed the TDV in order to satisfy more stringent emission controls, i maybe wrong but there's a topic some where on the forum relating to the 3.0 litre TDV enjoying a more leaniant car tax bracket (as if we were not paying enough already).
    Will it be possible to stop the emissions light coming on? a cause of the said problem, if so, how.
    A very intresting reply from rowdyboy, but will a mapping company carry out a remapp showing these fault/faults via VCDS, if so can they remapp the problem with the emissions light coming on as a result of the defective inlet manifold and motors.

    john
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  28. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    Yes, the same as if you delete the EGR, anything can be mapped out.
    #27
  29. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    Thanks rowdyboy,

    I know the forums got quite a few mapping companies being touted, but can anyone recommend me a company that will carry out a remap plus sort out the emissions light, keep in mind my cars now on 100k, but still seems perfect in every way apart from my OP.
    Maybe then i'll get to give my mate a run for his money with his a4 220 bhp special edition, my turbo lag just allows him a little sniff at the moment.

    thanks john
    #28
  30. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 18, 2011]
    Emaps have a good rep.
    #29
  31. bdub
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    bdub Member

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    [Nov 19, 2011]
    I think My reasoning is that I have 1 perfectly almost new bank and one knackeredd. I am able to do the work myself and I already have car mapped up for working flap manifolds..... so for £380 I can fix.

    Would like to know others sucesses with blanking off and remapping though.

    one thing I don't understand is - since the potentiometer that feeds back the flap position is in the motor module, why does the mil light come on if the rod that connects flap to motor breaks? how does the ecu know the flap isn't where it should be?

    good interesting points though Rowdy, cheers
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  32. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 19, 2011]
    Just out of interest, do you think you might be experiencing lower mpg and lower torque due to having one bank working and one not?? Won't the ECU be trying to compensate for the bank that's not working and throwing more fuel in?? I'm no expert, I'm just asking the question.
    #31
  33. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 19, 2011]
    Rowdyboy,

    I don,t really notice any difference in my MPG, As far as torque is concerned, again not notable, but i have no figures to go by or a rolling road for a before and after test, maybe i can use my VCDS, but again i need the data from when the motors were operating correctly. So in a nutshell, at least with my car i can honestly say both MPG and TORQUE seemed unchanged and not noticable.

    Bdub,

    With regards the MIL light comming on occasionally on my car, its probably because my motor nearest the turbo's fried, so it does not carry out the sweep test, obviously this causes the ECU to register no data for the flap position, i think the operation of the motor is more important in this case rather than the flap position itself, this is only my gut feeling and not based on any facts gathered.


    john
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  34. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 19, 2011]
    Why not try disconnecting the other bank and see if there's any noticeable change in figures, that way you can see if removing them totally is a viable option.

    You're earlier comment about the TDV having MPG improvements has made me wonder if I've actually got the inlet flaps on mine, as it's a non TDV.
    #33
  35. bdub
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    bdub Member

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    [Nov 19, 2011]
    PM me your email address and I'll email the Audi SSP doc that explains
    #34
  36. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 19, 2011]
    Hi bdub,

    Looked through the attachment you emailed me, and while i totally agree with Audi,s explanation about the function of the inlet manifold, in reality i find the loss of power miniscule, my mpg have not increased notable, and with regards the emissions, i have been through 2 mot's without a problem, so i really cannot comment on that, although i seem to remember a post i read some months ago that diesels don,t have an emissions test as such, only a smoke test, again i could be wrong.

    Anyway thanks again for the emailed document.

    john
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  37. bdub
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    bdub Member

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    [Nov 20, 2011]
    No worries John, I can't doubt your experience, - i wish there was a way of isolating the MIL light for this fault only ( using VCDS) prob with having the light on all the time is that if another fault occurs you'd miss it.
    cheers
    #36
  38. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 20, 2011]
    Forgive me if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but it might be worth asking that question on the VCDS part of the forum. There might be a way to do it, one of the Guru's on there could maybe help. (unless you are one of those Guru's already, then refer to my first sentence)
    #37
  39. johnmandy
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    johnmandy Member

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    [Nov 20, 2011]
    Good thinking rowdyboy,
    I agree with your sentiments, but in reality no-one or very few visit the vcd's section on here and on another vag forum i belong to.
    I purchased full vcd,s a while back and try to learn as much as possible, but theres only so much you can self teach, i think someone posted once that vcd owners sing the virtues of vcds and egg you to buy one....... and then nothing, i learn what i know from allowing members of the forum to use it just to gain a little more experience, but i will try the vcd's section.

    Just a bit more news on my original topic for those with an intrest and of course the 3.0, 2.7 and maybe 2.5 litre engines.
    With reference to the motor which was still working and the linkage sheering off from the inlet manifold flap, on close examination and strip down, i now find the linkage keys into the assembly with a barrel type fitting and is secured there by means of an o'ring, in fact its a slight press type fitting with the o'ring obviously mating to a recessed diameter inside, So in effect the unit seems fine.
    I can from work get various size o'rings, so a new one will do the trick, hopefully permenantly
    Now i have this unit working correctly it seems strange the MIL light doesn,t come on, although the other bank is still not working due to the duff motor.
    One last thing, the linkage arms are manufactured in small aluminium box section, probably 1/4 " square with plastic linkage eyes, on close examination these look in perfect condition. so maybe i can get away with just buying 1 motor and a fix will put the car back 100%.

    Anyway thanks very much to those who took the time to reply to this topic.

    john
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
    #38
  40. hazey7
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    [Nov 21, 2011]
    Had a look at my engine operation with the cover off. I can see both rods moving the flaps as I increase the revs. Also on start up they move fully closed then open (or vice versa - not sure what they are actually doing...) so everything is working as it should.

    However, what I can see is that one rod (they have a pivot at each end - a ball joint) is vibrating, sort of jiggling around, indicating it is very slightly loose at both ends, the other inlet manifold's rod feels tight and solid and doesn't move.

    From what I hear, its the wear in this rod and its pivots that means during the open/close cycle on start up it doesn't reach the extremes of travel required to send the correct feedback signal to the ECU and hey presto, your engine lights on.

    Cant see how replacing the motor would fix this and that's why Audi and certain garages say you have to replace everything - the whole manifold - because thats the only part they supply that includes motor, rod and flap (I'm guessing)

    What a p1ss poor design that a tiny rod and its cr@ppy plastic pivots can initiate a £1,200+ job - shame on you Audi.

    Operating as it is, my car is exactly as economical and powerful as it always has been, so this poxy little arrangement being worn is making no difference whatsoever to the car - except that sodding engine light is on.

    Rant over. Will continue to search for a 'workaround' that doesnt involve over a thousand pounds. Always loved this car but cannot justify getting anything as complicated as a 3.0TDI auto le mans again.
    #39
  41. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    [Nov 21, 2011]
    I gave you a workaround.
    It's not just Audi. BMW were the same, except for on those, the flaps broke off and went into the engine, destroying it.
    #40

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