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Injector failures - general info needed

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by mm707, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. mm707
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    mm707 Member

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    Hi All,

    Just wondering if you could give me some background info regarding the piezo injector failures on the 2.0 tdi models...

    1) what year range does it affect ?

    2) does it also occur with vw's ?

    3) just how common is it ?

    4) Has it only been happening on the 2.0 tdi 170 engine ?

    It's happend to me and I'm getting the feeling that it's quite common though Audi are not owning up to this.

    Many thanks

    Mark

    A4 2.0 tdi 170 2007
    #1
  2. benr
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    benr Member

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    Take a look at the threads but from what i understand:
    1) any time up to late 2007 when they were changed for a new design (make?).
    2) No idea
    3) No idea can only really make your own judgement.
    4) Yes

    Probably best to post in the original long thread to not fragment all the info
    #2
  3. Barker44
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    Barker44 New Member

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    Funny old thing mine failed on me yesterday in the middle of morrisons car park. the car drove for about 10 meters and then died........turned over but wouldnt start!

    phoned audi recovery and they sent the Rac out whoi checked the codes on the ecu and came up with injectors or injector looms.

    The car is now in audi getting fixed.........iv only owned the car for 10 days........Not good so it better not cost me anything!!!!

    On the up side the replacement car is a 60 plate audi a4 quattro 3ltr TDI with only 890miles on the clock hahaha;)

    my car is a 07 a4 sline quattro 170bh 2ltr tdi with 28000 miles.

    :mad::mad::mad:
    #3
  4. Richardesty
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    Richardesty loves quattro

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    I think this is a much more common fault than Audi would care to admit.

    I too have a 2.0 TDi 170, although it's remapped to 207bhp.

    My first injector went in November last year, and the second in January. My car was just out of warranty and had done about 60k.........but Audi replaced each of them as a 'gesture of goodwill'.

    That said, I still was not happy, based on the expectation that the final two would also fail.

    After a couple of emails, suggesting my car was not save to drive, they agreed to replace the last two - I just had to pay 5% of the value of the parts to ensure a two year warranty.......but this was only about £40.

    Based on the fact you've only had the car 10 days, and especially the minimal mileage - there is no way you should be paying for this.

    If I were you though,i would ask you dealer to provide in writing what they are going to do 'when' the others fail....
    #4
  5. Barker44
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    Barker44 New Member

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    Thats a good idea, will do that tomorrow when i phone them to find out what the score is.....there was two fault codes so i think 2 have gone
    #5
  6. oldoiler
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    oldoiler New Member

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    It IS common across the VAG and Merc's Early build supplier "Siemens"? problems, and It is only recently that VAG have excepted liabilty [ providing there is FHS] I don't think the 3.0 TDI has the same problem . ..................?? just check other VAG forums
    #6
  7. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    I hope it doesnt, that would be 6 for me to replace!!!
    #7
  8. Richardesty
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    Richardesty loves quattro

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    Now that's just showing off!

    Btw Audi quote around £800e a fitted for these babies!
    #8
  9. Macdoon
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    Macdoon Well-Known Member

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    Hi All

    I have a 57 plate, would this have the new injectors?

    Mac
    #9
  10. Macdoon
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    Macdoon Well-Known Member

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    Hi Richardesty

    Where did you have your remap done, how does it feel compared with the stock 170, have you had any negative issues mate

    cheers

    Mac
    #10
  11. mm707
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    mm707 Member

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    Hi - by this do you mean that they are replacing them for free ?
    #11
  12. Barker44
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    Barker44 New Member

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    Better do!!!!! i dont have a spare £800 just laying around!!!! this car was supposed to save me money not cost me money!!!!!!!!
    #12
  13. oldoiler
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    oldoiler New Member

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    I think it depends where you are in or out of warranty, in I think its FOC and out of warranty its based on a percentage, but it looks like you all have to fend for yourselves on a individual claim. I'm sure it would help matters if you did take some print outs across the VAG forums of chaps that have had a positive claim - if you have trouble getting a claim through. ...........................................!! Remember data shared across VAG Marque has more power than just one forum !!:anbet:
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
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  14. lespaul
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    lespaul Member

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    Richardesty who did you email? Mine is going in tomorrow for a new Turbo (I hope) plus i need to ask them why the car is lower on oneside than the other. Then ask them why it's a pig to start sometimes.

    If it's dodgey injectors perhaps I can get them replaced
    #14
  15. benr
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    benr Member

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    I keep asking the same question but have not had an answer.
    #15
  16. Richardesty
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    Richardesty loves quattro

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    I just emailed the boss at my local dealer and laid it on re the safety factor......

    Generally though, they won't replace them unless they have failed.

    As for warranty - every one of my injectors were replaced out of warranty, although I hav full service history with the Sam dealer.
    #16
  17. mm707
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    mm707 Member

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    I don't see why Audi goodwill can depend on whether they have been doing the servicing - if it was serviced every week the injectors would still fail - it's basically a design fault and a safety issue and they should be recalled before someone is involved in an accident.
    #17
  18. Macdoon
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    Macdoon Well-Known Member

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    I even asked my local Audi," ermm not sure mate" lol , o well!!!
    #18
  19. Barker44
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    Barker44 New Member

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    all good infomation, the failed injector is getting replaced on my car tomorrow, they said as long as i carry on with an extended warranty everytime it expires then they will be covered, i have 12 months warranty so hope they all go soon so i can get the problem out the way.

    the injectors are £400 each excluding labour!!!!! not cheap
    #19
  20. oldoiler
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    oldoiler New Member

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    Sorry that no one has got back, but no your build will have the old injector/loom assy. and it was a latant manufacturing problem. And for others across the forum's also seems a mixed bag as weather both injector and loom change are done together, perhaps some audi service chap can advise???
    #20
  21. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    Has anyone got a recent failed injector as VOSA have emailed me saying they will look into this, they want to know if a failed injector can be provided. My old one was sent to the manufacturer because apparently you get a reduced price on the new one supplied... I'm filling in the defect reports now.

    Audi have called me back now, and it went from "we won't do anything about it"..."it's a conicidence" yesterday to "we know there are isolated incidences" and "an Audi dealership may be able to help your specific case"... to which I said that it's past that now and I am pursuing the issue with the relevant authorities as a safety issue that is not being addressed correctly.
    #21
  22. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    To anyone else who wants to file a report so that VOSA can investigate this:

    Vehicle Defects

    Please fill in the form at the bottom of the page. It only takes a few minutes.
    #22
  23. lespaul
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    lespaul Member

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    Cool I'll try and get this done. But keep us all informed on how you get on!!
    #23
  24. Barker44
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    Barker44 New Member

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    Cars back just wondering when the other 3 will fail!!!! audi sent the fauled injector back to the manufacturer so no such luck sorry buddy.

    il tell you what its nice to have my car back......the remap makes the 2ltr feel as fast as the 3ltr tdi i had as a hire car :)
    #24
  25. rowdyboy
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    rowdyboy Member

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    My mates just had one (or more) of the injectors fail on his 170 A3. He has full Main Dealer services, till the last one which the garage threw in as a freebie when he bought it. Do you think he'll still get any goodwill?? What's the best way to tackle this situation?
    #25
  26. mm707
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    mm707 Member

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    Go direct to audi customer services via e-mail and complain
    #26
  27. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    Update from VOSA

    They have had a meeting today with regards to this issue as it seems to be affecting anything with a 170 engine judging from the reports they have been getting. They want as many people as are affected to step forward and file a report to see how widespread the issue is and officially who's affected by this. They will be contacting VAG shortly and it will take up to 6 weeks to get an official response.

    Let's see them make an excuse to VOSA about FASH now, (if FASH made any difference, we wouldn't have people asking like beggars for goodwill gestures, or getting the fault in the first place!)

    Please please please get other people involved, on other forums or someone you know may have been affected. Even you guys that have had the injectors swapped, please file a report, it takes 2 minutes online and can help everyone.

    I (we) are not after free injectors, I couldn't care less about them at this point. The fact Audi/VAG are STILL letting people drive around with a ticking timebomb IS EVERYONE'S PROBLEM. If they don't sort this problem out and get away with it, they'll be more inclined to sweep other "coincidences" under the rug too.

    Please file, give VOSA the ammo they need, please re-post on other forums, anything with a 170 is affected:

    VOSA LINK:
    www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/onlineservices/vehicledefects.htm

    Thanks
    J
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2011
    #27
  28. benr
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    benr Member

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    Good work, i was going to fill this out but mine havent failed (YET!).

    This needs to be posted on all forums to get good coverage!

    Cheers
    #28
  29. mm707
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    mm707 Member

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    Excellent - I will post this on the VWAudi forum
    #29
  30. Barker44
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    Barker44 New Member

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    sounds like a plan....do you think they will do anything though!!!! wishful thinking i guess......ill fill one in and send it off tonight
    #30
  31. oldoiler
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    oldoiler New Member

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    Ditto on the SEATCUPRA.net forum too
    #31
  32. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    BriSkoda.net too, under the Octavia section...
    #32
  33. lespaul
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    lespaul Member

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    Mine have yet to fail too. But what about contacting Watchdog on the BBC?
    #33
  34. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
    #34
  35. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    do you need a failed injector to send to vosa? im a tech/mot tester at an independant vag speciaist in sheffield, im changing an injector on a "brd" engined 57 plate a4 tomorrow thats failed on monday night... its been recovered in to us yesterday. theres a new injector and head wiring loom coming tomorrow from tps.
    im more than sure i can get my hands on it tomorrow and send it to you if you want......

    the glow plug warning light flashed for about 4 seconds then the car cut out without warning and wouldnt restart (customers description).
    checked fault codes with the "vas 5052" vag machine we have; two fault codes recorded. "injectors circuit A - malfunction in circuit" and "injectors circuit A - open circuit/earth short"
    on testing with a meter after removing the rocker cover and unplugging all the two pin plugs to the injectors theres 100 ohms resistance to ground on the live terminal thru injector no.2 itself. this grounding shouldnt be there! it isnt on the other 3 (ones that haven't failed yet).
    when one of them "goes to ground" like this, the ecu see's it, and cuts power to all the injectors causing the engine to cut out.

    but even in the event of replacing one injector..... any of the other 3 injectors could go to ground in the same way at any time (next day? 3 months?) and the ecu will do the same thing, cutting power to all injectors.
    but the fact the fault codes produced by this fault (read on a vag diagnostic tester) arn't cylinder specific, is evidence in itself that the ecu cant differenciate which injector is faulty. so insted of misfiring in a limp mode but still able to run. the ecu cuts power to ALL injectors.
    thats just STUPID design in my eyes!

    if they have all these new redesigned injectors on the shelf that dont have this problem..... why arnt they fitting them under a recall or fit all four when one fails. i mean once you have the rocker cover and injector rocker shaft off the engine it would only take you another 5 minutes to change all four rather than just 1? it would make more sence abour wise to do all four at once!

    as for service history at vag or independant..... it makes absolutley no difference....... its a design fault within the injector..... a non servicable item!

    this is the 7th one of these ive changed. the last one was also on a similar a4, but the one before that was on a 57 plate seat altea. also on 2 late 56/57 plate passats aswell over the last year or so (cant remember the engine codes for any past cars tho).

    do you want me to send you this injector? as us being an independant garage, we dont have to send it back to audi as we're not doing it under any warrenty, it'll go in the scrap bin!
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
    #35
    mm707, lespaul and jfarhead like this.
  36. oldoiler
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    oldoiler New Member

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    murran :, what a v good post beening aretired warranty engineer/fault tree analyse - thats the sort of data I would need to progress a design change !! Stick this into Vosa, it can only help. ........................................................................... [ bet there is a different response in the USA to this failure @~!@]
    #36
  37. jaygeezer871
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    jaygeezer871 Member

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    Its a shame we cant get VOSA down to look at this car.
    It has all the symptons and fault codes.
    Murran, I know its asking a lot but is it possible to do a video of the diagnostics showing all in your posting?
    #37
  38. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    VOSA:

    "Dear Mr Farhead,

    Thank you for the information. If you can send the injector and loom to
    myself at the address below. We do need customers to complete a defect
    form so as we can log each case to build a complete picture. The VAG
    specialist can complete the forms on behalf of the customers if that is
    easier for them.

    Look forward to receiving the parts.
    Kind regards"

    I'll be forwarding them to the inspector asap...
    #38
  39. nicol1980
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    nicol1980 New Member

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    I have filled in a form and sent it to VOSA. Hopefully many others will follow suit.
    #39
  40. jfarhead
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    jfarhead Member

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    A note to any VAG specialists that will be filling forms on behalf of customers, behold the smallprint from VOSA...
    You need to make sure you ask the customer beforehand (obvious, but I thought I'd re-mention it as they've speceifically emailed me)...


    VOSA:
    "If the specialist are filling in the reports then they must have the owners
    permission as this information is passed onto the manufacturer who may wish
    to contact them. We do need that agreement before we can action the
    defects"

    Thanks
    J
    #40

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