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I'm stealing your parts! Sorry guys!

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Prawn, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    So, after a mildly cryptic title, I thought I'd share this in here, just to see what you guys think.

    I don't venture out of 8L much if I'm honest, but in recent months I've been browsing in here and reading more and more about the TFSI engines, in preperation for something that I'm testing in conjunction with with Beachbuggy Turbos and Parsons performance.

    This isn't directly 8P based, but this is probably the most relevant sub forum. i hope you don't mind.

    We all know that you lot are blessed with a fantastic OE turbo on the 8P S3, for a factory turbo it seems to produce amazing results, and seems to be pretty reliable at those outputs too, so it was certainly something which has interested the 1.8T crew for a long while.

    I'd already stolen the compressor from an 8P S3 for my k04-023 hybrid, which produced 353bhp / 345lbft on my 1.8T engine in my A3, looking like this:

    [​IMG]

    But now, thanks to Dan at Beachbuggy Turbos having a crazy idea, we've gone one step further with a kit he is developing, and stolen the whole turbo from an 8P!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Bulkhead clearance was a little tight, but aside from that, it fitted great:

    [​IMG]

    We also robbed a TFSI charge pipe:

    [​IMG]

    And added a 1 bar actuator for good measure:

    [​IMG]

    It's all back in now and almost finished:

    [​IMG]

    just a few pipes to finish, and the downpipe which we're making this evening.

    At present, we have NO idea what it's likely to make on this engine.

    What do you guys think? You've all more experienced with these turbos than we are so i thought I'd share it in here.

    What kind of boost do you guys run these at safely? Any problems or known issues we should be looking out for?

    The engine is a high flow large port 1.8T, with NA cams, forged rods, 3'' turbo back, massive IC, WMI, all the toys. Any guesses as to what it might make?

    All thoughts and opinions welcomed :)

    Cheers for reading

    Prawn
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  2. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Hi Prawn.

    Nice to see you over on this section,and your superb car.

    Now...boost levels on a K04.

    The maximum that this will run on the 2.0TFSi is about 21-22psi,tailing off towards the red line,and this equates to about 360-370bhp on that engine.

    On your engine,even taking into account the smaller capacity,with all of those mods,and WMI to reduce inlet and cylinder temps,I wouldn't be surprised if it was very close to what most of us have got from the TFSi.

    There seem to be few if any major problems with this turbo,although it will not sustain more than 1.5bar on a continuous basis,and to do so it's run pretty much at it's limits.
    The main problem in doing that is EGTs,and you seem to have that well in hand.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
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  3. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Cheers Alex, good to see a familiar face :)

    We found on the old hybrid setup, that to get the best from it it needed to run at lower boost with more timing, we ended up at 1.4 bar peak, holding 1.2 bar to the redline, with 25.5 degrees of advance at the top end to produce it's 350bhp.

    I've also installed standalone EGT and WB02 gauges so both of these can be closely monitored during mapping and track use.

    Good to hear that you're suggested boost figures are more sensible too! I've heard of people attempting to run these at 2 bar and encountering horrid surge issues without realising what the noise was! Hopefully it won't surge as badly as the old hybrid did due to the larger hotside.

    Fingers crossed it'll be done by the weekend :)
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  4. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Likewise!

    I'd hope you'd get at least the same or better power from this,and hopefully with less advance and lower temps.

    I don't know of anyone in the TFSi world that expects one of these to hold 2bar,although it's possible to get that sort of value transiently.

    I mean....my GT3071 will hold 2bar,but thats a lot bigger than the K04,and it's at it's safe limits doing that,and this might help those that think it will.....



    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
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  5. Dean_T
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    Dean_T Member

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    Good to see you in this section Prawn, along with that crazy car of yours! :)

    I cant add anything technically helpful to this thread but just wanted to say "nice one" and hope it all goes well fella!
    #5
  6. Sandra
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    Sandra MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator

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    Hi Nick, i thought you had posted in the wrong section, good to see you in here and good luck with your project, im sure it will be epic. :) x
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  7. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Well, a week later it's finished, and driving very nicely indeed.

    Currently just at 14psi, on actuator pressure until it's mapped to suit, but initial results are promising.

    a little speedo pull taken this week:

    14psi, no WMI active here, it was empty. Blue lights that appear is the glow from the shift light.



    TFSI K04-064 1.8T - YouTube[/QUOTE]

    feels fairly good for 14psi of boost, going on the dyno sunday to get a baseline and check that everything is 100% safe, then being mapped in 3 weeks :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  8. LEE69
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    LEE69 07 170 DSG

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    Very nice mate
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  9. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Good to see it running.

    You must be really pleased with the build so far.
    Hope you get a LOT more soon.
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  10. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Popped over to badger 5 at the weekend for a quick run on the dyno to see if everything was safe and well. i decided to wire the N75 in before going, and in the safe environment of the dyno we tried a few funs with the N75 turned on to see what it was making.

    Results were very promising indeed:

    [​IMG]

    348bhp from just 18psi at the point of making peak power. power still climbing when it hit the limiter at 7400rpm.

    Peak EGT's were 734 on the dyno after back to back runs, and it's taking 25.5 degrees of ignition advance with no timing pull at all.

    Very promising results considering it's not been mapped to suit at all yet. N75 duty doesn't exceed50% and the load is sitting around 70-75% of it's max request currently, so a fair bit of scope to dial in more power :)
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  11. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Great results there.

    It looks as if there's a lot to come,and I'd be surprised if you don't comfortably exceed the figures you'd hoped for.

    It should move!
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  12. smurfworth
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    smurfworth Well-Known Member

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    Possibly a stupid question Prawn, but why 346bhp @ engine and 281 @ wheels?

    Would have thought they would both increase massively not just power @ engine
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  13. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    If you work it out,the percentage gain is the same in both cases.

    The power at the wheels is between 82-85% of that of the engine alone,the rest accounted for by drivetrain losses.
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  14. smurfworth
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    smurfworth Well-Known Member

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    ahh, so more power equals to an increasing loss.

    I thought youd put it down to not being able to put power down on the dyno as a result giving readings that are slightly off
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  15. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    In one sense it's not really an increasing loss,as the percentage lost in the drivetrain remains the same,but I see what you're saying.

    If you aren't able to put the power down,what you'd see is dips in the power/torque curves where traction is being lost.
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  16. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    the other thing that changes from run to run, is transmission fluid temperature, and tyre temperature.

    In theory, the trans fluid will get hotter with each dyno run, so percentage loss will change very slightly, the tyres also heat up very quickly during the runs too as it's trying to wheelspin and climb out of the dyno.

    On these runs I had R-compound semi slicks fitted, and we used carpet glue to help it get traction on the rollers! Percentage losses through the trans seem to be slightly higher due to this as they REALLY stick to the rollers, you could hear them much more than any road tyre, but as Bills dyno does a proper coast down to measure losses the crank figure is repeatable.
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  17. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Carpet glue!

    I've not heard that one before,but it must have been fun.

    I've not had traction problems with mine on the RR,but we have had other issues with the Haldex screwing itself around and giving some wierd results,but I know others with the same thing.

    What's the next plan?......slowly wind up the boost and the duty cycle?
    #17
  18. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I think it was carpet glue, or spray on contact adhesive, a little white aerosol can they use when cars struggle for grip on the rollers!

    You can see just how sticky it is here:

    [/QUOTE]

    Now that I know it's safe, , I'm going to put a few more miles on the setup, it's done just under 900 miles so far in the last 2 weeks and it's going really well. it's booked into R-tech to be mapped properly on September 5th :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  19. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    That's great.

    Please don't forget to post it here when you've had it fully mapped.
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  20. Dean_T
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    Dean_T Member

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    Great initial results, I bet you are a happy guy today eh :)

    Love that carpet glue idea, clever but quite straightforward when you stop to think about it lol

    Echoing Alex, please update us when you get more results!
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  21. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Cheers guys, I'll definitely let you know how it gets on!

    Bill overlaid my dyno plots with one from a st2 leon tfsi whilst we were there, and despite the 2.0 capacity, the results were incredibly similar for similar boost. the 2.0 spools a few hundred RPM quicker as you'd expect, and holds marginally more midrange torque due to it's capacity, but peak numbers were pretty similar, and ultimately the turbo defines the max flow possible, I think the finished numbers should be pretty comparable to what the 2.0 boys are seeing from it :)
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  22. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    I would have thought so,and the head work on yours no doubt is keeping up the flow and the spool times.
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