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I feel so slow in the S3 :(

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by boggysv, Oct 26, 2009.

  1. gabrialboy
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    gabrialboy Member

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    +1

    Imo the MINI gives better feedback and you can easily gauge it's reaction from driver input (classic go cart handling) but on track the S3 will be in a different class. It does manage to challenge the bigger boys (the MINI that is in JCW spec) but drivers apart the S3 will take it quite easily.:drag:
    #41
  2. paddy
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    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    quote

    I tried to brake later than I normally would and the tyres would scream for help in the corner almost plowing straight.......

    Yup, sounds like mine :)
    #42
  3. Crunch
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    Crunch Member

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    meh

    :kissmyrings:
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
    #43
  4. boggysv
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    boggysv Member

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    The mini is not stock, but the way it brakes so much less is not even funny. My car is stock, except for some rubber mats.

    http://www.euroasians.net/2009/08/13/porsche-bmw-baby-gt3-rs/
    I was faster than the mini on track (sepang) when his gf was driving it :)
    Granted that's a nice smooth wide track and there are no walls/guardrails to be afraid of.

    On the big curves (4-5th gear) before reaching the hill, I can keep up with ease. It's during the tight bits when going up the hill (2-3 gear stuff) where I have problems. Dont think more power would help me as most of the time it's a second or two on the gas before braking and turning.
    #44
  5. KeepItTidy
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    KeepItTidy Member

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    Thats one SERIOUSLY hot MINI!!!
    sho! very nice.
    No wonder you were having so much trouble keeping up in the S3! brembo brakes and coilovers :hubbahubba:
    #45
  6. AuldReekie
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    AuldReekie Member

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    ^^^

    Maybe you should have mentioned that at the start?! :asskicking:

    No wonder it pi$$es all over the (standard) porky S3. Oh try taking the mats out, they will be holding you back for sure and then get it mapped.
    #46
  7. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Probably should have mentioned the Mini's spec earlier......

    On brakes and suspension alone it would leave you on any ordinary road.....yes you'd catch up again on the straights,but it's stopping and cornering are so far ahead of a stock car that it's no wonder you were left behind.
    #47
  8. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    You can say that again. The mystery is solved.

    Spend a King's Ransom on chassis and suspension upgrades like your mate has on the Mini and it might even out the contest a bit.
    #48
  9. Boydie
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    Boydie Boycie

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    I am in no way slagging your car but even revo do not rate those bhp figures. They are about 20bhp over claimed power. Revo claim 305bhp with the stage 1 map. Its not uncommon for rolling roads to read high, they have to compensate and sometimes these companies compensate a little too much to impress their customers (There are plenty of these companies here in Northern Ireland) for eg. scooby's reading 60bhp over standard power lol

    Get logged onto vagcom, take the car a run and monitor the boost and air flow - you can then accurately calculate your bhp. My mate and I did this and my car peaked at 306bhp which is accurate enough for me. I am going to a RR next week and I have a suspiscion that my car will be in and around the same as yours.
    #49
  10. KeepItTidy
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    KeepItTidy Member

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    I have to agree with Boydie there...
    All our S3's this side running CAI,DP,Zorst Stage 2 SW (all with different software, APR/Local racing tuners/Revo/etc) get between 254-268 at the wheels.

    On one of our dyno's your car would run at about 240HP atw.
    #50
  11. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    This is not true. The only way to derive bhp from g/s airflow is to use a multiplier. What value do you use ? Some say 1.3, some say 1.5, some say 1.2. There is no science behind this - the multiplier is an arbitrary guess and therefore any bhp reading based on this is method is meaningless.

    I've been to RR days where there is no sale to be made to customers. The ProSport RR day took place at a Subaru garage as it was the only place with a 4WD rolling road. There was no question of trying to impress the customers as there was nothing the customers could buy ! Mitch 78's S3, Kontraband's S3 and L6ON's S3 have been on many different rollers (including ProSport's) and all show over 285bhp every time.

    We've been over this many times before - but one thing's for sure. Any RR in the world is more accurate than using Vagcom and the g/s readout to arbitrarily derive bhp.
    #51
  12. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    shes really upset now!! maybe its just RR's maybe your car is underpowered? maybe my car is overpowered!? who knows?

    all i know is untill every person on this forum goes to the same RR on the same day we will never know.. But one thing i will say is comparing Vagcom calculations to Amd's RR is a bit meaningless and a very unfair test... i bet your car comes out at way over 306bhp on a RR then your car will show it can gain like ours! have you always run v power Boydie? did the previous owner?

    agreed! so many standard s3's go on RR (various different ones -not just Amd Essex) and read much higher..
    #52
  13. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    To be fair the flywheel figure is a guess aswell. Power at the wheels is recorded and then they crudely guess what your transmission loss will be.
    #53
  14. AuldReekie
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    AuldReekie Member

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    ...and it rolls on...I agree with S3RYE in that until we all get RR'd at the same place and day we can have no definitive answer here.

    I really don't get the hang up on figures in the first place, so long as I get an improvement in-line with the tuners stated figures, I don't care what anyone else has; all very Top Trumps to me. No offence meant to those who do care about headline figures incidentally. :icon_thumright:

    I run my car on V-Power and Tezzers finest and would agree that on the day it might make some odds, but I don't think that would be a factor in decreasing the power in the long term - certainly not 20-30 bhp worth anyway.

    Time for a Revo comment perhaps as these figures are way above their stated outputs?! :uhm:
    #54
  15. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    But not above the experience of others. Gordie (S3ZIZZO on here) got about 323bhp on ProSport's rollers with a Stage 1 Revo remap if I remember correctly. Mine got 319bhp with a Revo Stage 1 remap.

    If some standard cars are putting out nearly 300bhp (we know they are) and the map delivers a 20bhp gain I don't find that too hard to believe personally.

    Minty is right - there is NO way of truly knowing your bhp figure but that said I would imagine S3RYE's readout is as accurate as its ever going to get. Seems right to me.
    #55
  16. AuldReekie
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    AuldReekie Member

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    I think that we may be misunderstanding each other here mate. What I mean is this: I do not dispute anyone's figures past, present or future, and I know from tangible 'real life' experience that Audi's figures would appear to be conservative (as I have maintained throughout); I am thinking kontra's mota vs Revo 1 here. Which brings me back to the point that comparing figures from different days and RR set ups - in the main - is pointless.

    The point I was making is that Revo publish figures for each level of tuning (Stage 1 = 300 bhp/310ftlb) - which we quite reasonably expect to be accurate. So...I wondered for the sake of clarity and harmony if it could be explained why their published figures vary so much (almost 30 bhp in some cases) from what people are finding on the dyno.
    #56
  17. BOSSS3
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    BOSSS3 Member

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    Horse power is not everything. If you wanna go fast around a track set your chassis and suspension up to increase your corner speed and then worry about how much power you have.
    #57
  18. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    I'd misread you J. Apologies. I suppose these companies err on the side of caution. If they say "you'll get 320" but a standard car rolls of the factory line with the quoted 265 they would be setting themselves up for a fall.

    I'd always assumed (wrongly I now think) that if you had a standard car which was giving 290 let's say, the remap would still only take you to the quoted 305 thus giving a meagre return for your cash. But from what I've read recently you get the gain - i.e. a car with 285 out of the box would get 325.

    Some people use the higher standard output on S3s to argue against the value of remapping - but I don't think that is accurate. I think you still get the gain on top of whatever you start with.

    Yep. Goes without saying. Although a brake upgrade will make you faster still on track.
    #58
  19. Boydie
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    Boydie Boycie

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    I dont know the exact calculations used but will find out - the info above that I put down might be wrong (probably lol)
    #59
  20. boggysv
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    boggysv Member

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    So I have ~240 whp and 4wd. Maybe 200 kilos heavier than him.

    He has ~200whp and Front wheel drive. Doubt he's got a limited diff.


    The most obvious problem is when I switch directions quickly (i.e. slalom), the s3 seems to hesitate for a bit before the body would "settle" into position.

    When approaching a corner, he'll go in with so much speed that it seems impossible for the S3 to follow and not crash. I cant recall what speed is 2/3rd gear in the S3, but when powering out from corners, wont he be ESP limited or at least have the innerside wheel spinning like mad? The most mind boggling bit is that mini seems to just hookup and shoot off as quick as the S3 would on corner exit, and I cant pull him back unless the straight is fairly long.

    The brake upgrade should not make a difference here, as mine is still capable of inducing ABS, and he is hardly using his :sob:
    #60
  21. kaz219
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    kaz219 Active Member

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    Mini's are little go karts - You can really push the car to the limit round a bend and still have a good feel for it.

    Not sure about power but our old one was 02 copper s and that was quick.

    Agree with the others, get it mapped! or, ad a fuel pump, induction, free flow exhaust and a custom map (ad maybe something Ive forgotten) and then you'll have a beast!

    Handling wise, ARBs do make a big difference!
    #61
  22. AuldReekie
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    AuldReekie Member

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    No worries A. I could have explained it fuller and saved us both some keyboard practice. :)

    I have finished the Pro-Sport thread (phew) and see that the recent AmD results are nothing new and agree that we should look at the gains per Stage as being incremental on your actual base power figure, rather than power Tiers. This (I believe) is where the confusion arises when you use the stated gains as a benchmark against RR figures. In fairness to the tuners it would be almost impossible to account for the variations from the manufacturers quoted outputs. In any event the gains are impressive and I am happy with my choice.
    #62
  23. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    :iagree:
    #63
  24. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    Most Mini Cooper S's choose to have the factory fit LSD. If not he'll have the quaife unit. He's also got a good suspension set up and probably running lots of negative camber judging by his mods, so his traction out of corners will be pretty impressive.

    From his mods, i'd guess he's running more than 200whp............220!

    So power to weight ( he's got lightweight buckets and guess at rear seat delete ) then he's at around 1100 kgs. So he's got a straight line advantage too.
    #64
  25. boggysv
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    boggysv Member

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    Wait a minute...you mean that there's a lsd option for minis?! is it a real mechanical lsd, or the fake lsd (the one where the computer applies the brake) that's on so many FWD cars in the market today?

    Similar to a racist, I'm guilty of assuming all FWD cars cant get on the power after a corner. Guess that makes me a "driv-ist"?
    #65
  26. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    Yes, the R53 ( Supercharged ) and R56 Cooper S had / have the option of a mechanical / torque bias LSD. The R56 Factory Works ( 212hp ) has an electronic diff as standard.

    The mechanical diff is pretty good on the R56.
    #66
  27. boggysv
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    boggysv Member

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    I'm pretty sure he's on a R53?
    #67
  28. dipstic
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    dipstic Member

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    LSD was a £100 option from late 05 cooper S (r53) and both of my previous minis would give my present S3 a good outing depending on the road (works s/sus/brakes etc 210 bhp std or my other one running around 230 bhp eibach srings/rollbars/bigger intercooler/brakes )
    #68
  29. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    Correct.
    #69
  30. paddy
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    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Ahh at last ! someone has hit the nail on the head. ?You can spend
    a small fortune on chasing figures on a dyno but thats not even half the story. there are many roads that even a Zonda will not keep up with a well set up Mini..BHP is not the end all !! more important is weight and suspension. i notice the original post says "uphill" ! now straight away the Mini has a advantage over an S3 because of weight. Rolling weight on the flat is not the same thing as rolling weight ...uphill. A well set up suspension will pay dividends far beyond a remap from 260-300bhp (just15%) If you can carry the speed through the corners then you will not need that power ..
    Its always far cheaper to lose some weight than to add some power...
    #70
  31. beanoir
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    beanoir Sharpest Tongue in the West

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    In a vein attempt to stay on topic here...

    +2

    We've all seen how an experienced driver in a transit van can trounce performance vehicles on a track in the hands of average drivers especially if they know the track better. I know its a slightly over-egged argument and perhaps Top Gear episodes are not a particularly accurate example of the point, but you catch my drift.
    #71
  32. orbitor
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    orbitor New Member

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    you want to know something else that makes a MASSIVE difference?

    Tyres.

    ultra-soft compound barely road-legal semi-slicks will make the corner speeds you can carry (compared with normal 'high-performance' road tyres) just way higher.
    #72
  33. paddy
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    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    It makes no odds what the bhp is. Your either happy or your not with what you have. A good driver with 250bhp with a good suspension set up will probably drive round the outside of Mr average in his 310bhp anyway.
    The fact is that quoting bhp without for instance the overall weight of a car or even where this power comes in and without the torque figures is meaningless.
    #73
  34. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Weight is the killer. They've done all they can with reducing unsprung weight on the S3 through the use of aluminium suspension parts, but to justify its premium they should have thrown some alloy panels at the car (bonnet, wings, door skins) to shave off some more weight (they did it for the Lupo GTi, and do it now for the TT, so it's not hard).

    When I first drove the S3 I was mortified by how slow it was. The reason I hurt so bad is I had specced up from the humble Leon Cupra R 225, hoping to realise far more benefit in terms of the afforded grip, but the weight / transmission losses meant that whilst you can pretty much always have stuff 'off the line', in the mid gears its been much harder.

    I took my S3 as far as I could, and whilst it's a blinding little car I'm still left slightly scratching my head as to whether its worth blowing another kings ransom on some KW V1's, some decent brakes, ARB's and some track engine / gearbox mounts. Or do I just cut my losses and get something more specific.

    It's been an agonising decision as I honestly do really enjoy the S3. In tuned form it is an absolute weapon, but just a tad soulless if I'm harsh. It is without doubt the beauty of the hot hatch world.

    That said, driver training is the key here. you may still lose ground to other cars, but I went out at Castle Combe the other week and felt like a novice on track. I wondered why, but without REGULAR practice your skills / nerve WILL ERODE. You notice it more when you know you've been better in the past and subsequently regressed. Even Schumacher can't just click his fingers and drive an F1 car at 8/10's, so if you are joe average like me it can only be a thousand times worse!!! Everyone thinks they are a great driver. Spend any time with a decent, track frequenting paid up driver and you will realise you have much to learn!!!
    #74
  35. 6piston
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    6piston New Member

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    Hey Boggy

    I found this from the linkback on the blog

    Please don't feel bad at all, I go up there like at least once (or even 4-5 times) a month, and Shedden is a seasoned race car driver. So It's probably just because you're not familiar with the roads there.

    I have also drove and saw how your car move, i really love it and it's got tons more juice than the MINI.

    Let's do it again real soon :)

    Hey guys, pleasure to join you guys on audi-sport



    Tom
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
    #75
  36. AuldReekie
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    AuldReekie Member

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    ^^^

    Welcome Tom,

    The wonders of the web huh? Nice set-up you are running there. I think you missed a trick by not saying that you left the handbrake on or something, that really would have sparked some mini-bashing. :rolleyes:

    Anyways, I am sure that you have made Boggy feel a whole lot better. :icon_thumright:
    #76
  37. 6piston
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    6piston New Member

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    hi auldreekie

    thanks! yeah, i'm very happy with the current setup, suspension, brakes and everything. It's just that i'm currently rectifying a boost issue. Most of time now, i can't get max boost (14psi), just hovering 10-12psi.

    haha, no no, i wouldn't dare misbehave here especially being new and eveything..
    but I have to say that my tires were already old and hard. :):):)

    seriously, the S3 is pretty amazing, i once witnessed boggy sticking to the rear of the Cayman at a section of sweepers. I can only watch them from afar as the MINI started to hop and skip...
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
    #77
  38. HotboxDeluxe
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    HotboxDeluxe automatic

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    Hi 6piston, you have a very cool Mini :yes: but I'm doubly interested in the other half of your signature...share? :eyebrows:
    #78
  39. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    :sign_welcome: to the forum 6piston

    As HBD as said very cool mini and some great mods! Pretty cool colour aswell:) Also you probably made Boggy feel alot better
    #79
  40. 6piston
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    6piston New Member

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    thanks guys,

    Boggy's a really cool guy, one of the simplest, most down to earth guy i know

    HBD, for you :) :

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #80

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