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hybrid v big turbo

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by s3_kev, May 25, 2009.

  1. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    im really thinking about doing a turbo upgrade at the mo but im torn between hybrid and big turbo,
    i dont want to use new rods and pistons so im not looking at massive power increases somewhere betwen 300 and 325bhp as i also want to retain the std clutch for now,
    im swayed towards the hybrid but i dont want the turbo to be running on its limits all the time thus shortening its life, also with the hybrid there will be no room for improvement where as a big turbo on low power will have the capability of producing more power,

    kits im thinking are;
    bdm hybrid/jbsk05 turbo with highflow down pipe and de-cats, (already have fmic)

    or

    bdm 325bhp garrett turbo kit but with mapping done by bill @badger5 or jabba

    peoples opinoins please especially people who have either setup
    #1
  2. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Well look at what happened with s3 pauls hybrid, that wasnt good.

    Wonder how he's getting on with that :ermm:

    If you end up going BT wont you most likely have to start playing with the internals.
    #2
  3. jcb
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    jcb Active Member

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    GT2871, I went with a 630cc Eurodyne MAP (get it mapped over here if you want, Bill is as good a place as any)
    get your bits in the US to save the pennies, you will still get them cheaper even IF you get stung for import tax.
    www.pagparts.com
    www.qedpower.com

    keep your boost low, 15-18psi and you are nicely on and around the 300-325 mark without the super rod killing torque spikes you will get with a maxed out hybrid. you also won;t have to seriously look at rods unless you want more boost.

    lots of people running 300ftlbs on 50 trims or super 60's

    2871 is a well matched trubo for the 1.8t even with stock intake and a log mani
    #3
  4. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I've been told to go for the hybrid rather than the BT as the driveability of the S3 is compromised even if the suspension set up has been upgraded and this was from people who had gone down the BT route.
    Bill Brockbank is a good choice he knows his onions.
    #4
  5. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    yeah this is my point about the reliability of the hybrid
    cool some good info there much appricianted


    also im thinking about the driveablity as vorhess said i want it to be a quick car overall and not to have the revs up to get the turbo to work likeim expecting a big turbo would need, i think the sensible option is the big turbo but i want the drive of a hybrid
    #5
  6. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    After following the amount of effort it takes to go BT (see Mat20vts A3 build thread), I am defo going hybrid. I think S3Pauls problems are no dissimilar to that of someone who has any work done on a car.

    Personally, I think running that much boost on a K04 (hybrid or not) is gonna end in tears.

    I for one am going hybrid, I am going to get my turbo though Badger Bill and it will be a CR Turbos one. They use RS6 turbo internals and they say it has flow capacity for just over 300bhp. Thats not to say you will get that and throwing more boost at it won't get you there either.

    I am sure they said the max boost you want to run through it is 1.4bar. On a std exhaust setup that should get you a reliable 280bhp and 280/290ftlbs at a guess but so I am told it won't suffer the caviation issues that std K04's suffer from and will be reliable too.

    The S3 exhaust manifold is one of the most restrictive items so I am told and exhaust and downpipe replacements won't give you loads of benefit power wise but should make the engine feel more responsive.

    Have a word with Bill, he is a top bloke and really knows his stuff...

    I am planning on doing my hybrid turbo in June/July depending when I can find a week to sort it out.

    A BT with give you loads more power but then you are heading inot engine rebuild territory and that gets expensive. Mats A3 has cost him a fortune, the ceramic coating on his manifold and downpipe was around £400/500 alone and you really need something like that to keep the temp down under the bonnet and not melt stuff as its real tight.

    <tuffty/>
    #6
  7. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    cheers tuffty thats kind of along the lines im thinking im not looking for a massive improvement at the moment as i think my cars pretty quick i just want to release that bit more potential with out costing to much, i think the big turbo route may end up costing alot more then it looks from the outset,
    as for the manifold issue im also awere of the restriction jbs have been developing there manifold for years now as origanly i was going to go for the jbs turbo and manifold but im loosing paitients now i want to bolt the whole lot on in one go and not have to fit a manifold later, also if you can get a more free flowing manifold then surely it will keep egt's down and thus save the life of the turbo to,

    does bill do custom manifolds if so i wounder if he could make one up, i shall email him now
    #7
  8. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    I know he was developing a K04 tubular manifold but its all gone a bit quiet on that front as I was real interested in that. He did say though that it wouldn't be cheap and that there wouldn't be massive gains from it but every little helps I guess.

    If he ever gets around to producing them them I am sure he could get a bit of interest from ASN members... he does spend most of his time on cupranet though...

    <tuffty/>
    #8
  9. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    sent him an email with the thread attached so lets hope he has a look and decides a manifold is a good idea :)
    #9
  10. jcb
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    jcb Active Member

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    yes but his mani and downpipe alone cost more than most big turbo builds that the guys in the US are running on stock blocks and gti from the 90's!

    They take teh piss out of people in the UK spending so much time and effort uprating this and that and tweaking and building hybrids to use a manifold than is a **** design in teh first place.

    so many people over there are just dropping rods in a stock small port head and running 3071, 3076 and 35r turbos on daily drivers.
    not saying this is the way forward but we need to have a few people just say screw all the bling, give me an off the shelf log mani and a GT2871 t25 and a decent tune.

    I personally have gone full circle from looking at Gt28RS, then IHI VF34 to now going with a 2871 on a 5 speed A4 tqs. the power delivery is **** as it is. the gearing doesn't match the sub 4000rpm power. it needs low down grunt! .....and some more beans higher up!

    I have meticulously planned the spec list and build to give me a useable torque curve, I actually don't care what my max bhp figure is......its irrelevant. for the amount of time you will be spending at the precise moment your car produces that power it is irrelevant.

    on my stock 180bhp 1.8t at 4000rpm I am getting about between 120-130bhp
    on an S3 you will be lucky if that is much higher than 160bhp (i am open to being proved wrong but I have a dyno from stock for mine).
    I have a slightly different spec list and have gone 2l but expect 200 -220bhp at 4k rpm...minimum.
    at the top end I will be happy with anything north of 350bhp. I know with the MAP i have at 20psi it will be closer to 400 though. just don't need to run 20 psi all day long.

    the curve for a 2871 on a stock 1.8t is much better than any K04, hybrid or otherwise, a better flowing t25 log mani and a decent cat back and you will be making more power THROUGHOUT the rev range.
    Big turbo does not have to mean super slow spool, lag and a vertical torque curve at 5000rpm.

    [​IMG]

    choose your components wisely and you will have a better balanced power delivery
    #10
  11. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    I wouldn't do a big turbo again on an S3 unless I was doing a proper job and going for 400BHP or more. The hybrid K04 is much better suited to the chassis and the 1.8 engine.

    The K04 hybrid might not beat a GT28RS in a 1/4 mile sprint, but it won't be far off. And the hybrid will be a much better car to live with. If I give in to temptation and buy another S3 to restore, then it will either have a hybrid or a blown 3.2l.
    #11
  12. jcb
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    jcb Active Member

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    what turbo kit did you do?
    did it set you back more than expected?
    what was difficult to live with?
    #12
  13. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    chris had the above mentioned kit
    #13
  14. Olly P
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    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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  15. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    I would go 28RS for that level as its spool will be nicer than the GT2871R even on 0.63 hotside. GT2871R has more flow potential of course, but with some additional lag.
    Depends on if you have plans to visit rods at any point and furture power upgrade once you get used to it (which you will)
    #15
  16. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    it is a good idea, BUT, it wont be cheap and is compromised by factory fit location. Runner from #3 into collector is very restricted for space. I am loathe to put much more effort into this when there is a more viable option on the horizon.

    JBS have a rapid prototype made, and say they're going to sample stage shortly. Production process for castings being 16 weeks however from whenever the GO button is pressed. JBS's, whenever it becomes a reality will be a viable option. 32mm runners.
    #16
  17. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    Welcome to the UK.. aka rip off Britain.. FFS man, things just cost MORE here. wish they did'nt
    You dont see people doing the job 'Right' often in the US, they are way more gung-ho than UK customers in the main.
    High spec, costs, but it is extremely high spec. Buy cheap, Buy twice more often than not. Buy abroad, risk zero support, and what support is practical from across the Atlantic anyhows. - next to feck all


    Road cars need a balance of power to spool.Its not all about the big numbers and bragging rights, unless thats what floats ya boat - lol

    Neglecting to mention RHD cars are NOT accomodated by buying from the US lhd market.
    US customers want bigger numbers almost ALL the time. The fact they wait forever for spool but get great headline dyno figures to crune about, whilst being dumped on by smaller faster spooling turbo's in real world street driving, seems to escape them. yea I got 4xxwhp or 5xxwhp figures and spin in every gear... Well done. but pointless. At least you 4wd chaps get to plant it to the ground. Most USA BT's I read about are proper audi quattro in-line setups or 2wd Golfs, with the odd exception (TT/S3...)
    #17
  18. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    1. ATP's GTRS Kit with a GT2871
    2. A lot more by the time you have all the other bits in place
    3. Not difficult, but not exactly easy. I wouldn't bother doing it again.



    For general A/B road driving a hybrid would have been so much better. They make more torque than a BT, and they make it from lower down in the revs with less lag.
    #18
  19. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Thats true, the problem to take into account with the Hybrids is the torque spikes, it's these that bend rods when the tuner pushes them beyond what they are capable of comfortably.

    I have a hybrid on my A4 and it makes more power than any k03/ko3s setup with low speed spool and decent pull in high revs. I am sure more power could be extracted from it, but i wouldn't want to affect the drivability. Knowing what i know now about tuners, i would probably have used a GTRS with bolt on manifold upgraded my ECU to a wideband one and had bill set it up so it spooled early and gave a nice torque curve without looking for max power.

    I would then be in a position for it to be tweaked later for more power as other mods were fitted without it already being on the limit as a hybrid would be
    #19
  20. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    i think after this debate for me the hybrid option is the one, reason being is im not willing to buy internals as i dont want the expense and the effort of stripping my engine and rebuilding it so the option of big turbo with the option of upgrading internals is redundant in my case.
    the cost of the hybrid or big turbo to my expectations was around the same as i was costing up new down pipe manifold for the hybrid, but as no one has mentioned these additions in this topic im beggining to wounder if i would need them so it then makes for a more cost effective option to go for the hybrid at £800,as i said im not looking for big bhp numbers to quote i just want somewhere in the region of 300bhp 300 lbf,
    if i can buy just a hybrid have it mapped well so as to not get huge torque spikes with boost tailing off like it does on the stock k04 id be happy and will cost me £800 plus remapp costs
    #20
  21. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    CR Turbos hybrid from either Badger Bill or CR Turbos direct is £495+vat

    <tuffty/>
    #21
  22. jcb
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    jcb Active Member

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    That was kind of my point. It is expensive here but given that you developed that mani and downpipe combo for a 500bhp race car....is it really the most price sensitive option for a 2871 equipped road car?

    don't take it the wrong way, it looks an awesome peice of kit and I would buy something equivalent if I could afford the expense, but comparing that build with what is available for someone venturing into the world of comparing hybrids and other BT kits/builds doesn't equate.
    they are Gung ho in the US and I agree that they don't often do their builds as I would spec them but that is kind of why they are ahead of the UK in testing things that work and those that don't.
    US shopping is a risk but one I took as it saved me £2k. that buys a lot of support.

    doesn't float mine either, its why I spent 12 months looking for the quattro car I wanted and then stuck a quaife ATB in the rear diff.
    I don't get the idea behind vertical power curves and no traction

    you have me there, I know nothing about the issues with manifold choice for the RHD market, I do know it is not much better for the Longitudinal layouts. getting better but two years ago it was APR Inconel (which they don't really want to sell by themselves) or FullRace! either way you are looking at $1000!


    either way I still think there are decent alternatives to hybrids that don't involve new internals
    #22
  23. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    I have several different manifolds from US, and have tried fitments. My own ibiza runs full-race. quality whilst still being US manufactured.
    As the price break for manifolds is better in the US. I have manifolds made to my spec both in the UK and USA, for different needs (full on race spec in UK, where weight is important) and road, and the USA price is less. no surprises there. even more so when the exchange rate does'nt hit you. As a legitimate business however, but the time duty and vat are applied the "cheap" nature, is all but gone. I do not include the fraudulent undervaluing on import invoices, as I cannot do this as a business where you take the risk as joe public.

    I have removed ATP eliminator products in favour of a hybrid bolt on, which delivers a far more rewarding drive ultimately. those customers have paid good money, and paid again to have the job done better and properly with matched components.

    My advise is choose a tuner you can trust, has done some good work in the area you are looking to have done, and stick with them. hopping between folks works out badly & expensive. (no continuity & often conflicting advise vs sales patter)

    BT is fun, it is not cheap when done right
    #23
  24. Lenny Benford
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    Lenny Benford snowed under

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    Kev if you want 300hp / 300lbs i would just run as much boost as you can on your ko4. Get it mapped as aggressive as possible, i know you won't get the figures you are looking for from the ko4 but i don't think you will be that impressed with a hybrid, if you have a remap already you must be around 260hp, so an extra 30-40hp from a hybrid is it worth it?
    I don't think 40hp will make that much bang for your buck, but it your money mate, good luck with whatever you decide to do.
    #24
  25. Olly P
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    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    Its the extra torque you get from a hybrid that makes all the difference. For example with a BDM hybrid you safely make 300 bhp but 330 ft.lb of torque, the same as most big turbo kits
    #25
  26. Gareth_RS3
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    Gareth_RS3 Member

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    Its the extra torque like Olly says that makes the upgrade worth while IMO

    Also something to bear in mind if you havnt already is that the standard clutch isnt really up to coping with the torque the hybrid will produce and to upgrade the clutch (and flywheel if needed) is very costly as im finding out at the moment :(
    #26
  27. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    how is the hybrid going gazza?
    What downpipe and cat you useing?
    #27
  28. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    Is there a dyno plot or more technical information on what this hybrid is?

    There are plenty of claims of 300+bhp K04 based units but I have not seen them verified


    any info out there?
    #28
  29. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    what hybrid are you using then??
    im not looking at replacing the clutch i only dont the clutch at the end of last year, if it wasnt a must do job back then id have waited to get an uprated one,
    however im a mechanic so doing the clutch isnt a problem its just the cost of uprated parts,
    personally though i wouldnt want the car to be mapped agresivly id prefer to have a little less power with a nicer drive so would stress the clutch less anyway,
    im using the 300bhp aim as a loose guide to what i want to achive but would be happy with 290-285bhp and 300lbf torque if it means the turbo isnt pushed beyond its capabilities along with the rest of the engine ancilleries. i just want a little more then i have now
    however if it was a bigger turbo id want more like 300-325 bhp as imo it would cause less stress anyway as there would'nt be any huge torque spikes
    #29
  30. mat20vt
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    mat20vt Member

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    if after a tuner you can trust, look no further than Bill.
    done a top job on my a3 quattro, looks superb under bonnet. and goes great!

    car was evan returned shiny and clean!
    #30
  31. s3ollie
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    s3ollie Member

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    if it going to change the car the same amount and be as noticeable as the first 40hp (chip) then its got to be worth it hasn't it? :shrug:
    #31
  32. Lenny Benford
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    Lenny Benford snowed under

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    Well from my experience a s3 running 350hp just doesn't seem that fast due to the weight of the car and the haldex losses, i would aim at around 400hp to get a fast feeling car. But that said then you will start running into reliability issues, its a difficult one isnt it? :unsure:
    #32
  33. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    Its torque that makes it "feel" fast. Some of thos 350bhp BT's just arent running enough torque, less than the Hybrid K04's it seems.
    #33
  34. Damo S
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    Damo S New Member

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    Im not sure that many insurance companies would particularly like you telling them about your big turbo upgrade. Where as you probably woudlnt need to tell them about a hybrid as I doubt they would be taking it off and measuring the diameter of the impellor whilst your car sits on the back of a trailor all smahed up.

    just another consideration.
    #34
  35. Lenny Benford
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    Lenny Benford snowed under

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    ok i will re phrase that, don't bother spending your money on anything that is going to give you less than 350lbs of torque because it will not seem that fast due to the weight and the transmision losses. :whistle2:
    #35
  36. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    going over 350lbs is not what im after i belive the my cars relativly quick its only when i come on here and read everyone saying transmision loss this weight that, so for me a little more power from something like a hybrid is what im after not a full blown weekend toy with silly torque and big numbers to quote everyone, id rather just smoke them kind or keep on there arse to make them look silly
    #36
  37. Lenny Benford
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    Lenny Benford snowed under

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    Kev if i were you i would place a post on here and mybe the tt forum to find out what a "hybrid" turbo is like. Maybe go out with someone who has one on their car, that way you could see before parting with your money, good luck.
    #37
  38. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    thats what im doing here lol, i have pm'd someone about going out in there hybrid s3 so i shall see from there, i would like to see the difference before just going ahead with it
    #38
  39. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    you would have to drive it as well,being a passenger isn't going to give you an idea is it?
    #39
  40. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    not sure really depends how impressive thehybrid is really, i would'nt expect someone else to let me drive there car really, be good if a company had a demo car :sly:
    #40

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