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Hybrid K04 R&D

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by beachbuggy, Sep 17, 2012.

  1. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 7, 2012]
    Didn't make much difference to me either......I'm going to go back and look at cam switching as mine is going really flat after the cam switches.. Would fit my agu tensioner back but it broke last time.
  2. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Nov 7, 2012]
    I think I've got a spare AGU cam chain tensioner in the garage if you want one Dan. Could take a look friday morning if you like.
  3. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 16, 2012]
    First chance I've had since Sunday to update. Well it made a rather disappointing 250bhp on Sunday at Bills but it wasn't a happy car. It sounded good and nothing broke so cant complain.

    ive swapped over the VVT to the original AGU one and it felt better straight away. Although the cam was logging it was switching I'm not sure it was 100% happy and possibly it wasn't working as it should if nothing else its also hot rid of the flat spot on the maf readings at 4.5k when the profile changes.
    I have also used a fresh clean base map to work from as I'm sure the one I started with I had potentially messed up and thus the timing was totally out! This could explain why the egts where so high and it pulled like a dog!
    On the rollers is was around 21psi boost and about 275g on the maf as previously logged so something wasn't right. Having had a chance now work with a GOOD timing map ie keeping kfzw and kfzw2 the same the car drives south better . So I think on Sunday I was running the boost but not the timing along with the bad Vvt made it run like a hairdressers dog.

    Main thing is the turbo is still good. I took the tip off to check for play in the shaft and its rock solid, which is encouraging.

    Plan is to head back to Bills in the upcoming weeks and try again.
  4. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Nov 16, 2012]
    All R&D dan......:icon_thumright:
  5. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    Quick update

    I hit 292grams on the MAF this morning.
    [​IMG]

    Not that it means much in it's self but its the max of the s3 maf...


    Boost was holding a pretty nice 22psi, but as you can see it's not made till quite late IE around 4500k which if you looked at prawns recent logs is a fair bit later in the rev range.. making his more friendly to drive

    [​IMG]

    Only issue I have at the moment is this this.

    The load is taking a big step down just after 5k, and you can feel this as the car feels like it's stuttering . It I think because actual load is over shooting requested and so the ECU is trying to get it in inline, this pull back can be felt as a hesitation then once it's settle the car is fine.. I think I just need to look at increasing the load limit at that point to take into account what the engine can achieve and hopefully that will sort out the LUMP..

    [​IMG]

    Back to Bills next thursday for another crack on the Dyno... And to see Mylo break 272bhp on a k03s and what he can do with the new K03s hybrid....
  6. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    Nice work Dan, still going well, what have you changed to get the increased air flow?? I have a similar step in the Engine Load between 5000 and 6100 (at a lower value of course :) ). So it will be interesting to see what you change.
  7. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    Sorry Dan, scrap that, I was looking at a old map / log , it is now gone by multiplying KFMLDMX by 1.5
  8. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    Ive just working on the timing, not sure if you saw the log I put on prawns thread with EGT and timing? Well by getting a smoother timing map ie less swings the EGTs have stayed down, and the timing has gone up this I think has help flow.

    I may be wrong and hopefully someone might be able to chip in, but it seems the me7 timing maps are pretty wild in so much they are pretty hit or miss. 15degrees one second 5 the next, partly due to maps and partly due to the way the me7 works out torque maps etc. A smooth timing gives a more consistent engine, less highs and less lows means you can get a cleaner CF and thus time more accurately. The only way I can see this ever happening is with live mapping and getting rid of the torque monitoring all of which beyond me!

    I think if you can get a better timing map you can run lower psi for the same power, keeping EGTs down and power up.

    I did mention before but by running a better timing map my EGTs have come down nearly 200 degrees in the cruise and under 100 at WOT.

    Proof will be on the dyno though
  9. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    Good shout, I thought I had adjusted that one but its still stock! I will up it and see if that helps.
  10. Barks
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    Barks Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    I have just seen your post on Prawns thread, interesting.... So you have smoothed out KFZW(2) and taken 5 degrees off and gained 12 degrees and dropped EGT. Any chance a peak at the graphs??
  11. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    as I'm now running an agu tensioner with vvt coded out kfzw and kfzw2 are the same, no switch.

    By smoothing out the timing is was able to increase timing and lower EGTs . The graph on Nicks was to show more timing cooler EGTs. By smoothing the timing I was able to add 5 degrees and gained 12 degrees in places. I've done a lot of looking into the Torque monitoring of the Ecu and its very apparent the Ecu works well at low load boost , as you increase boost and timing the TM acts more by adjusting timing and so does the knock control. I'm sure you know about kfzwop/2 which are the max timing maps for best torque assuming knock isn't an issue, which it always is. So it advances timing until either knock or torque monitoring says NO. Then timing gets cut to compensate, huge timing swings are then inherent and to sacrifice is power. If you can run a smooth timing curve then predictable power is made and performance can be increased. Niki's TiV counters the TM acting on the timing and hence the gains, by stopping the Ecu cutting power due to torque monitoring, ie timing. its great but you then have sooo many other issues to get it to run as well as with it enabled.. Smoothing the timing maps and running a correct kfmirl/kfmiop just makes for a smoother and better running car.. Getting it right is another issue.. Which I'm yet to do :)
  12. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Nov 23, 2012]
    all very promising Dan, I look forward to seeing how you get on at Bills next week :)

    The added timing certainly seems to have helped with EGT's on mine, whilst I've got no probe, there was visably less glow when the timing was dialed in, and the whole engine didn't seem bothered by the high output at all :)
  13. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 9, 2013]
    Whats cooking in the kitchen Dan, any new designs. Bill manged to get 325bhp out of my hybrid consisting of a stock k04 turbine (clearanced) and a 2280 compressor wheel on saturday. Any thoughts, no surge by the way.
  14. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 9, 2013]
    Wild willy.. Clearanced? That's pretty impressive figures. Relentless manifold?

    On the new menu is a new turbine, larger , and new style 2283 billet compressor wheels..
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  15. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    top results Willy, pretty impressive considering since your hybrid spec was developed, the dinosaurs have died out the human race has evolved! Maybe its time for some shiney billet parts :D

    isnt clearenced where they either machine te wheel down sightly or overbore the housing to allow flow to pass around the turbine?
  16. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]

    I realised last night , after much excitement that actually this turbo is a 2280 with a rs6 turbine, clearanced means the housing was machine to fit. It's basically it's the same as the k300 that mylo ran but in a k04. He made 312bhp so the 325bhp in a k04 is about right. I guess the no surge is down to the comp wheel being slightly less efficient than the 2283. Great results though.
  17. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    are you sure its RS6 turbine Dan?
  18. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    No ;-) admittedly it could be the tfsi flat back wheel but that's the same size as the rs6 anyway so I am assuming its that wheel. Plus no other company, in my research has offered a larger turbine than the stock k04 other than the rs6 sized wheel, along with the clearance and power figures says to me, again without proof it is more than likely the rs6 sized wheel. It still out performs a lot of the stage4 hybrids around today, it's good to see some decent figures from something other than a 2283/rs6.
  19. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    i wonder if carls measured it ever... Que Carl.. Wild Willy
  20. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    The words 'measured' and 'Wild Willy' probably shouldn't be used this close together in a sentence :)

    <tuffty/>
  21. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    email exchange 2006, i can confirm that the turbine wheel is identical to the stock wheel and looks nothing like the rs6 that i have seen, tell me how you read it.

    "For this hybrid we start with an OEM KKK K04-023 turbocharger and modify both the compressor and turbine side. On the turbine side we clearance the exhaust housings which is used to compensate for the increase in flow through the turbocharger. Without this when upgrading the compressor side we tend to see an issue where there is too much air trying to flow through the stock turbine housing. Clearancing allows us to increase the flow of the turbocharger without drastically increasing the lag time.
    On the compressor side we use a larger KKK compressor wheel that allows us to flow more air/boost at a higher efficiency than the stock K04 compressor wheel. The larger wheel has quite a few advantages over the stock wheel. First is its ability to run at a higher boost level and do so safely. We are able to run upwards of 2bar while still staying in healthy shaft speed ranges and efficiency ranges. Another advantage is its ability to sustain flow through to redline. When in chipped or modified form, the stock turbo has a tendency to run out of breath before it reaches redline, with the new compressor wheels ability to flow more, we can eliminate that problem. The final advantage of the new compressor wheel is it’s ability to run at a lower shaft speed than the stock wheel. Running at a lower shaft speed is going to reduce heat within the turbocharger, extend the life of the turbocharger, as well as put the rpm’s back in the range that the turbine wheel was designed to run in.

    For the build of the turbocharger, we balance the wheels individually as well as together in a rotating assembly to beyond factory tolerances. The turbocharger is then blueprinted during the build to ensure that all of the parts, though new from the factory, are within factory specifications.”

    Maximum boost is a tricky question because the turbocharger and compressor wheel are going to be able to put out up to ~27/28psi, but I don’t know that I would recommend that boost level on a stock engine."

    On stock mani with no wmi i managed 302bhp on Bills Dyno 2010 but i was running the first ever large bore tip at the time with alot of timing advance from a apr map. I have logs from that time and a dyno plot also. I'll post em soon but i'm 40 today sadly and my visit to Bill on saturday was a Bday present to me, he he.

    Edit;- it was ported, polished and ceramic coated also.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  22. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    "The words 'measured' and 'Wild Willy' probably shouldn't be used this close together in a sentence" [​IMG]
    Were all friends here. :blush:
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  23. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    I don't think so but i could be wrong, i'm sparing the turbo's blushes with a with a well metered dose of mwi and relentless mani. I'm confident this is a stock turbine in looks alone and spec from email exchange. The mani and wmi have added 25 bhp to the overall power.
  24. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    A new hybrid and mani will be fitted in due course, i haven't wrang the best out of this one yet though.:cool: Large port SEM and throttle body upgrade comming soon.
  25. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    Very interesting. All my hybrids run "clearanced" and I did an identical turbo to yours for Bill but running stock k04 turbine clearances and it made the same power as a stock k04 but flowed better iirc.

    I still find it interesting that its a stock turbine! The rs6 and stock k04 share the same 50mm inducer but different exducers. It makes 325bhp from a stock turbine even more impressive. I believe niki has got 309bhp from a stock k04 with all the extra bits so the bigger comp wheel will add.

    So what's your plan for the next hybrid then ? Gap between 325 and 353bhp is much!
  26. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 10, 2013]
    To make it worth while it has to be 360 plus with supporting mods. Different manifold required for flow and reliability, direct port wmi injection too. I'll wait to see what your next generation hybrids bring first.
  27. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Apr 12, 2013]
    What do you think would be the effects of simply swapping out the 2280 compressor wheel for a new 2283 wheel whilst keeping turbine stock. How much would this cost for a straight wheel swap.
  28. S3Zek
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    S3Zek Member

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    [Apr 12, 2013]
    Bill...what is the hybrid spec turbo you told me to get from cr? I asked for the bagger 5 biggest spec one but its only got stage 2 on the side? I just have no idea whats in it?
  29. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Apr 12, 2013]
    CR: who the feck knows what they 'actually' built for you..... lol ......

    IF they did something along what was my spec it would have been 2283 comp wheel and RS6 turbine, possibly with 7 degree clip..
  30. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Apr 12, 2013]
    I would send it down to Dan mate, even it is just for a look,
  31. S3Zek
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    S3Zek Member

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    [Apr 13, 2013]
    Well it's been clipped and its got a bigger comp wheel in there so it's a start, I'm really looking forward to see if dans new idea for this other hybrid works well before this is fitted as I shall kill two birds with one stone and have it checked over and made better if all works well :)
  32. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [May 9, 2013]
    Name that wheel..... A poor pic from my hybrid.
    2013 009.jpg
  33. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 9, 2013]
    If there's little machine lines on the bottom of the comp wheel it'll be the 2283 billet wheel. It looks cast though + the ID of the inlet looks smaller than the 2283 would need with no step CR use on the 2283, could be the 2280 wheel. Any chance you can measure the ID?
  34. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [May 9, 2013]
    I don't think the inlet has been milled, i'll try and measure it in the next day or so. Was the 2283 wheel available in 2006.
  35. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [May 9, 2013]
    2283 comes from the k04 tfsi 2ltr.. If it was out in 2006 then yes I guess, but I don't know if any company would have made a hybrid from the wheel back then , they seem to come out around 2009 ish.
  36. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Jun 5, 2013]
    45 - 46mm internal diameter.
  37. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jun 5, 2013]
    Well the 2280 compressor wheel comes out at 44.7mm by the time you've machined in the clearance you'll be looking at 45.7-46 easily. So I'm going go with that its the 2280 comp wheel you have.

    I've only run 1 on a k04 with a stock turbine and it made stock k04 power . I do however use these on the k300 as they are very well suited to the k03 frame when matched with the rs6 sized turbine. This peaked at 312bhp on the k03.

    I personally think compressor wheels whilst are important font make as much if a difference as a turbine does. Getting the right turbine is the key.
  38. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Jun 10, 2013]
    Thanks mate that's very interesting and 325bhp from a 2280 wheel is good but I agree with what you say above regarding compressor wheel size but it goes to show what a stock turbine can achieve also.

    More Science now which I like:-
    I've measured the inside diameter of the exhaust housing of a stock K04-023 and its between 79.5mm and 80mm. The gasket is approx 83mm. We know how flow is restricted in its standard form with a standard turbine size such that gases exiting the turbine hit the lip of the exhaust housing and deflect out into the down pipe and away... Not great. Imagine now a standard aftermarket upgraded downpipe whether it be cupra r , s3 or TT, its 76mm OD which equates to aprrox 73mm ID. The turbine gases have an additional 3.5mm lip of restriction all the way around the down pipe flange in addition to those offered from the exhaust housing.

    In its simplest form a solution for existing turbos would be have a new down pipe flange cut with a 80mm hole and a 88mm Pipe forming the DP welded over it. That way the oversized 88mm pipe will form an expansion chamber for the gases and if possible I would continue this for the whole DP if space allowed on the individual cars etc(4wd may be a prob). I'm liking the modern 5 inch 100cpi cats for this to mate too and a 3inch cat back zorst.

    For new hybrids I would like to see the exhaust housing & DP flange milled at least an extra 3mm diameter overall (1.5mm across the circumference) on the turbo which would allow the stock gasket to fit perfectly. Consider you would now have an obstruction free diameter of 83mm to exit the turbine area as opposed to 73mm which we all have now. That's an increase in flow area of 29%. For ref the id of the 88mm DP tubing would be approx 85mm and I've checked that adequate clearance will still remain to fit a socket on each of the 3 nuts.

    What do you think.
  39. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jun 10, 2013]
    good shout. Would it not be difficult to find the right diameter pipe for the turbo/flange though??

    this is the same theory that bill is employing on staceys car with a 4 inch - 3.5 - 3 down pipe, i know that setup is a bit more exotic, but its to help with egts and spool. Some people have tried it and its been mentioned on vortex and people like the results.

    i think on a ko4 though, the part you're battling against is scroll of the housing itself. Im very suprised no one has honed that out for a bit more size and nice and smooth.
  40. wild willy
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    wild willy Member

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    [Jun 10, 2013]
    The more oversized the better for me Karl as it has been commented on VW vortices on how Audi try to create the expansion chamber effect immediately after the turbo. 3.5 inch is good size to continue to the cat also if possible. Many people can't appreciate how flow can be any better if the pipe exceeds the csa of the flange or housing... each bend offers resistance to flow so bigger the better.

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