1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

How to adjust rough idle and camshaft timing on VW and Audi TDI pumpe duse engine

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by PhilW, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Mar 25, 2011]
    Hi all,

    Ive got a strange idle problem with my 130 avant sport, it seems really lumpy on idle and seems to have some sort of hesitation on/off throttle. Ive read a few things online about changing out the gasket on the EGR to a smaller ID but nothing else. Ive tried depressing the clutch to see if its the DMF but it still remains. Mileage is 80k.

    Ive yet to scan it with vag com, will do tonight when i get home and post up any codes i find (these cars are Hex and not CAN i assume?)

    Another quick question as well regarding clutches, as its a 5 speed does that mean you can run a G60 single mass fly and vr6 clutch or is the crank bolt pattern different to the 1.8ts? (i have a GT3071 BT Seat Ibiza with a similar setup btw)


    Thanks a lot for any help.

    Phil.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2012
    #1
  2. Ads

    Ads

    [Oct 21, 2014]

  3. Point_Audi
    Offline

    Point_Audi Vorsprung durch Technik Regional Rep VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    827
    Likes Received:
    358
    [Mar 26, 2011]
    My advice would be to disassemble your throttle body and give it a good clean. If this is dirty it can cause the car to idle bad. I noticed a significant improvement in the throttle response and mpg after I cleaned mine!:happy:...How did you get on with Vag-Com? Did you have any faults?
    #2
  4. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Mar 26, 2011]
    1 Fault Found:
    17994 - Engine Mount Solenoid Valves (N144/N145): Short to Plus
    P1586 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent


    It wont clear so its more than intermittent i think. From this code can you tell which mount is causing me problems?

    Thanks.
    #3
  5. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Mar 27, 2011]
    Checked a few things on vag com and my coolant temps are low which wont be making things any better. New thermostat and CTS on order to sort that first then a new engine mount.

    MPG im massively down as well, got 42mpg calculated which is probably down to the coolant issue.
    #4
  6. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Mar 28, 2011]
    Bump.
    #5
  7. quattrojames
    Offline

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,904
    Likes Received:
    479
  8. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Mar 29, 2011]
    Thanks for that info. From my fault code it appears theres an issue with both mounts as both solenoids, N144/N145, have faults or the controller or wiring to them.

    Im guessing it would contribute towards the wobble.
    #7
  9. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [May 9, 2011]
    Bump on this. Had the mount changed and has solved the code but there's still a wobble on idle.

    I done a boost leak check tonight to see if that would cause a problem and I found no leaks.

    I think I need to do the glow plugs soon but can't see this being the issue.

    Any help would be great. Thanks.
    #8
  10. TURBOTRONICS
    Offline

    TURBOTRONICS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    0
    [May 9, 2011]
    if it had been a petrol engine i would have said clean your maf but i dont think your car has one
    #9
  11. brownie 25
    Offline

    brownie 25 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2010
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    7
    [May 9, 2011]
    have you checked the injectors with vag com
    #10
  12. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [May 10, 2011]
    Bingo! IQ at idle is/was too low, ranging betwen 1.5-2 which is rich and causing the shudder.

    Adjusted the IQ via vag com but only slight improved it.

    I now have to do the hammer mod to get the values between 3-4.

    Will post back soon.
    #11
  13. brownie 25
    Offline

    brownie 25 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2010
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    7
    [May 10, 2011]
    please please do with as much info as posible as im having the same problem.i don't have vag com but did get it scanned an the readings are similar to yours,what is IQ and what is the hammer mod
    tks
    #12
  14. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [May 11, 2011]
    Ignore the hammer mod comment, i found out that its for non PD tdi's.

    But, im sure the source of the problem is down to cam timing.

    See this thread....

    How to adjust rough idle and camshaft timing on VW and Audi TDI pumpe duse engine

    I checked my timing values in block 04 and it was showing 7.7-8.3. Massively advanced.

    If i nail this i will post how to troubleshooting guide to sort it out because its annoying the hell out of me. lol.
    #13
  15. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [May 12, 2011]
    Cam timing adjusted and its a complete different car. More power, smooth idle and hopefully better MPG.

    If anyone wants a troubleshooting guide to help sort out rough idle let me know.
    #14
  16. brownie 25
    Offline

    brownie 25 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2010
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    7
    [May 12, 2011]
    ya ya ya ya please............
    #15
  17. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [May 12, 2011]
    Ok, i'll post up something to help people sort it out today.

    New topic or a post in this thread?

    Id cant edit the first post to change the title to FIXED which is a shame.
    #16
  18. quattrojames
    Offline

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,904
    Likes Received:
    479
    [May 12, 2011]
    Put it in here, and then tell me what you want the thread to be renamed as and Ill sort it.
    #17
  19. PhilW
    Offline

    PhilW Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    4
    [May 12, 2011]
    Just a small disclaimer to say i cannot be held responsible for any potential damage that might be caused from doing these checks and adjustments to your car. It is very difficult to do damage doing these changes but without the correct equipment and knowledge of what is mentioned anything can happen. Take your time and hopefully you can have a smooth running car just like out of the factory.

    Do this at your own risk.

    Enough of me passing the buck if you mess it up. lol.

    Typical symptoms: Idle gradually gets worse and shakes car which gets worse after roughly 30seconds to 1min after idling.
    Lack of power
    Poor MPG

    These things can also be attributed to a number of different problems which hopefully this guide will help to eliminate. Maybe its worth checking even if you don't have rough idle.
     
    Must have items: Full version of vag com.
     
    Starting with the easiest:

    Check fuel filter has been changed within the last 10,000 miles.

    Check visibly all pipework is secure, no obvious issues, no oil leaks, coolant leaks or any other general issues and service has been maintained.

    Vibration can also be caused by a faulty dual mass flywheel so try and depress the clutch and see if this makes any difference at all. Not a great test but it might help to eliminate or highlight this problem.
     
    Now onto VAG COM/VCDS
     
    Coolant temp check.

    This can also be done using something like a ScanGauge or other OBD2 gauges.
    On Vag Com main screen click "Select Control Module" then "01 Engine". Wait for it to connect to the ECU then press "Meas. Blocks 08". Below group select 001 and press "Go!" this should show engine speed, coolant temp etc.... Take for a drive to get the car up to temperature, you don't have to log it you can just glance across to see the temperature to see what it reaches. You should be seeing a temp of between 87-92 on normal running temperature. To start with mine was showing 79-80, so constantly running in cold start fuelling - increased fuel to help raise coolant temps. If you are seeing low coolant temp figures this is probably a good time to replace the coolant temp sensor and the thermostat in one go.

    IQ and Cam Timing

    With the engine warmed up pull over and let the car idle for a minute with all lights, air con wipers etc... off, no extra load should be on the engine. In measuring blocks enter group 015 and press "Go!". Check the second block across, "Inj Qty. (Actual)" This ideally should be between 3-5. Higher number means leaner, lower number means richer. In my case this figure was around 1.4-1.8 at idle, very rich.

    Also at idle enter group 004 and press "Go!", look at the last block, torsion Value or i think it might be Synchro angle. In spec should be between -3/+3, the closer to 0.0 the better ideally, maybe with a slight advance in timing, 0.5-1.0.

    Write both of these down.

    From what i can see in my tests IQ and also the shudder is tied to the timing shown the last block of group 004. If you have anything other than the spec range of -3/+3 then chance are your cam timing is out which is causing rough idle due to the incorrect timing and extra/less fuel being injected.

    The A4 is very easy to change the timing slightly on as you only have to remove the engine cover and the cambelt cover to get access so it makes doing this procedure very quick.

    For most of the above this is a great guide to follow.
    How to adjust rough idle and camshaft timing on VW and Audi TDI pumpe duse engine

    My car was showing a Synchro angle was between 7.7 and 8.3 advanced. After i loosened the 3 x 13mm nuts I put an 18mm socket onto the centre of the sprocket and actually turned clockwise to get it to 0. The guide doesnt seem to agree with this. Its a trial and error procedure, undo the 3 nuts, move slightly, and i mean slightly, tighten up, jump back in the car and check the synchro angle in block 004 once again. Repeat until you get to 0.

    On my first go i rotated my wrench on the 18mm socket anti clockwise too much following the guide and the car would not start. Went back the other way towards where it was and it started no problems and the angle went down to 6.6 so kept moving clockwise until I reached 0.0. I very much doubt this small change of timing will cause any mechanic problems as its quite a low compression car which will easily run with the timing out a tooth (it wont run great tho but wont smash valves into pistons in my opinion). The movement needed to get down to 0 is very slight so make small movement first to get the angle value down. This is very import and saves a lot of timing going back and for the engine and vag com.

    Now check to see if the IQ has been raised or changed as a result of this timing, again 3-5mg/st is what your aiming for.

    My car now idles perfect, power is now night and day different to what it was and hopefully MPG will improve as a result. I personally think the timing belt is actually out an entire tooth and the adjustment made doing this procedure just compensated for it.
     
    Things to also check.

    Log MAF and boost values for issues. Ideally blocks 003, 011 & 001. MAF values on a 130 should be 850+, you can check against requested. If too low replace MAF. Is duty cycle on 011 is high chance are you have a boost leak or a turbo/n75 problem as the car cannot reach its requested boost.

    Here are some logs i took, 3rd gear, 1500 rpm to high up the rev range.
    PD130 Logs - Help - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

    Boost leak test. I pressurised my intercooler system to look for leaks.

    I also replaced all my vacuum hoses as they were fraying and split in places.

    The solenoid to the EGR valve and ASV, part of the N75 vacuum lines can fail. Try blocking off the connection off the top of the EGR valve to see if this helps. You can bypass the entire ASV and EGR system if you want. My car now runs a single 3mm hose with check valve as per OEM setup to the N75 from the vac source at the back of the engine and a vac hose to the actuator. Everything else is left alone and connected electronically. This is a basic EGR delete.

    Hope this helps.

    Phil.
    #18
  20. brownie 25
    Offline

    brownie 25 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2010
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    7
    [May 12, 2011]
    fair play Phil that is grate info,now its time to try all of the above.i don't have vcds but if all else fails is it worth trying to adjust the timing manually without vcds.
    #19

Share This Page