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How can i improve the S3's handling for the track?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by ianhg, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. ianhg
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    ianhg Member

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    Hey Guys
    first of all i apologise if this is the 100th thread about this on here. i look in the topic above and couldnt find a link to one,
    basically i love my s3 but i wan to firm up the handling to get more feedback and less tendancy to understeer off the track or swop ends(it did on saturday in the wet on the tracK)
    what suspension setups is everyone else running?
    i look forward to your replies
    #1
  2. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    Well, I have standard suspension, so I'm not an expert. But, after reading on here (a lot!), here is what I would do if I had the money

    Neuspeed anti roll bars 21mm front, 19mm rear (i think off the top of my head)
    H&R springs (a lot of people also use Eibach)
    Bilstein B8 sprint dampers

    I'm plannning to get the anti roll bars, and some Bilstein B6 dampers as I don't want to reduce the ride height.

    For brakes, the Brembo junior GT kit and the Porsche kit that Rich has are the main options, from what i've read anything more is just overkill.

    Hope this helps. Just a quick post, so I've probably missed something that the more knowledgable will fill in.
    #2
  3. ianhg
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    ianhg Member

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    thanks, i have the brembo kit from the cupra r and it behaved very well on the small windy track at anglesey,
    il look into thos suspension options
    #3
  4. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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  5. Grant
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    Grant Active Member

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    In my opinion uprating the front and rear ARBs is overkill for most people.

    Unless you use your S3 on the track, drive it really hard (not just in a straight line) you'll be fine with just uprating your shocks and springs.

    If you were that concerned about the handling of the S3, a) you wouldn't have bought one, or b) you would have uprated your suspension as soon as possible (regardless of cost)!
    #5
  6. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    In my opinion uprating the front and rear ARBs is overkill for most people.

    Unless you use your S3 on the track, drive it really hard (not just in a straight line) you'll be fine with just uprating your shocks and springs.

    If you were that concerned about the handling of the S3, a) you wouldn't have bought one, or b) you would have uprated your suspension as soon as possible (regardless of cost)!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I disagree imola. I would like the anit roll bars, and they're cheaper than lowering, and I can't think of a car for the money which ticks as many boxes as the S3, I don't want a beemer and what else is there? I very nearly bought an Elise, but if I had I would have had to borrow my Mum's car for work.

    As an everyday car, you can't beat it (for the money). Regardless of cost? I went from a Fiesta to the S3, I didn't buy it to mod it. But now I want something that handles better (and have done for a while), but still can't think of a better car for everyday use.
    #6
  7. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    I agree with rob, I bought the S3 as I thought it was the best compromise, again I know it's not the best car and if I could afford it I'd have an order for the new RS4

    However the thing that actually annoys me the most about the car is the body roll going into corners and especially when changing direction quickly I've been in 15 year old merc convertibles that control body roll better so I think the ARB upgrade is well worth it and as soon as I can afford it (I also have other things in my life to spend money on) I'll be getting both the suspension and the engine sorted.

    I've recently realised that either I sell up and buy something else (not a clue what) and loose a boat load of cash after the new engine I paid for last year or I modify the S3 into the car I'd like it to be! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif and at the same time enjoy being in one of the best car interiors I've been in for long periods.
    #7
  8. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    neuspeed arbs are the best mod bar a remap I have done to my car. I did suspension first (koni & h&rs) but it was the arbs that absolutely transformed the cars handling - I recommend them 120% (coupled with sports suspension)

    Dunc
    #8
  9. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    can anyone recommend where to get the neuspeed arb's from and where to get them fitted, as i've got the dmapers and springs and its made a difference but still not happy with the handling around bends.
    #9
  10. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    What about rear tie bars?
    #10
  11. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    In my opinion uprating the front and rear ARBs is overkill for most people.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I dissagree...

    [ QUOTE ]

    Unless you use your S3 on the track, drive it really hard (not just in a straight line) you'll be fine with just uprating your shocks and springs.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    The sad thing is that you'll get just as much of a handling improvement from the ARBs...but many people don’t understand or realize the advantages and gains.

    Springs and dampers DO improve the handling...within the limits of an inherently numb and understeery chassis...the ARBs shift the balance from predominantly understeering to totally neutral.

    Of course...all the best kit being bolted up, will be wasted without the correct attention to suspension set-up...but you get so much more scope to sort it out with springs & dampers AND ARBs...either one or the other just doesn't do enough.


    This isn’t just a track set up either…my S3 was one of the nicest and easiest to drive cars I’ve ever had…totally progressive, predictable, neutral etc…it had to be provoked to do anything ‘nasty’ and the balance and grip are impressive - as I'm sure you'll testify.
    #11
  12. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    can anyone recommend where to get the neuspeed arb's from and where to get them fitted, as i've got the dmapers and springs and its made a difference but still not happy with the handling around bends.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Awesome GTI do them...
    That's where I got mine from...they are actually TT ARBs from Neuspeed's uprated range.

    Just be sure you don't get the 'wrong' sized ones...
    The ones you want are:

    Front 22mm : 15.02.22.9 (3mm larger than standard)
    Rear 19mm : 25.02.19.9 (4mm larger than standard)

    You could go larger on the front (25) - but that is, in my opinion, too big and won't reduce understeer...it'll add to it!
    You could go larger on the rear (22) - but this is, in my view, getting too big and you risk snap oversteer is it unloads quickly.

    The 22/19mm set up is sublime...absolutely perfect...sorts the chassis balalnce out a treat...neutral by default but very easy to get the back into play...and assuming you have enough torque to spin all 4 wheels up, you can power slide the S3 about easily as 45 degrees to the direction of travel. Great!
    #12
  13. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What about rear tie bars?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Absolutely...
    More expense though...

    Don't fit them...and you wear tyres out on the inside edges..been there, done that.

    Fit them and you can dial in rear end grip to trim the chassis...I ended up with -0.5 degrees per side.
    Wheels (8 x 18" ET33 on 225/40/18 tyres) still tuck under the arches when fitted with 16mm rear spacers...grip was up, drive was up and the chassis was very controllable...

    I tried between 0.0 and -2.0 degrees...and with Bilstein dampers, H&R springs and Neuspeed ARBs, I found -0.5 degrees at the rear to be ideal.

    Ensure you get the rear toe sorted out too...it'll go toe out (I think) when you lower it...Audi have a special tool to reset it back to parallel - where it feels better...more predictable.

    The adjustable bars are expensive...but essential if you want a properly set up chassis that is totally predictable and doesn't eat tyres.
    #13
  14. djmotorsport
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    djmotorsport Member

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    Having had Glen's/David's S3 for a few weeks now, on mostly damp and slippy surfaces, I can only thank Glen for making the S3 chassis so neutral. Listen to what he says - He's done it in the real world and I, for one, can't stop smiling at the fantastic fun I'm having in it. The way it should have been when it left the factory!

    DJ
    #14
  15. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    Ok I found them on the gti store. here is the link http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/audi%20a38l1/suspension.html

    its right on the bottom of the page, one from bottom. but is that for a front and rear setup. ?
    as i can't see the rear setup on the store.
    also is this tricky to put on, as i'd need someone to put this on then...

    does anyone know if AMD do this? or provide the neuspeed arb's.
    #15
  16. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    AMD fitted my neuspeed bars, which I bought from awesome

    Dunc
    #16
  17. chuckys3
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    chuckys3 Member

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    cool, dunc how much was it to fit them. as thats wot i might do as it looks like on there website they only sell the r32 ones.
    #17
  18. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    cool, dunc how much was it to fit them. as thats wot i might do as it looks like on there website they only sell the r32 ones.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think you'll probably find that they won't be able to supply the R32 ARB's (do a search for the full reasoning behind it, i think the thread was called "R32 ARBs"), and if I remember rightly, Awesome are the UK agents for Neuspeed so they'll all be going through them anyway. Hope that helps.
    #18
  19. AndyM
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    AndyM Member

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    Last time I spoke to Awesome (3-4 weeks ago) they said they had no problem getting hold of R32 ARBs yet everyone else I asked had the same story of german restrictions.
    #19
  20. Boydave
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    Boydave New Member

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    I was wondering, would uprating the haldex controller on a standard suspension S3 improve its handling?,
    Its supposed to change the characteristics of the power delivery, where the power is transferred more to the rear wheels.
    Would this make the S3 more balanced rather than oversteer on every corner.
    What’s ppl’s opinion on this?
    #20
  21. robthehungrymonkey
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    robthehungrymonkey Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I was wondering, would uprating the haldex controller on a standard suspension S3 improve its handling?,
    Its supposed to change the characteristics of the power delivery, where the power is transferred more to the rear wheels.
    Would this make the S3 more balanced rather than oversteer on every corner.
    What’s ppl’s opinion on this?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I assume you mean understeer. I too am interested, to me it sounds like a really good mod, but not that many people seem to have done it. The people that have seem to rave about it, but they're always in massively powerful cars, mainly with a big turbo conversion.
    I would be interested to hear what people think of it in a remapped S3, or anything other than a big turbo.
    #21
  22. Boydave
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    Boydave New Member

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    yep sorry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
    #22
  23. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I was wondering, would uprating the haldex controller on a standard suspension S3 improve its handling?,
    Its supposed to change the characteristics of the power delivery, where the power is transferred more to the rear wheels.
    Would this make the S3 more balanced rather than oversteer on every corner.
    What’s ppl’s opinion on this?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My opinion is that on a standard S3 with wallowy suspension and no front end grip...all you'll do is turn an understeering car into a car that understeers then snaps into oversteer with little chance of catching it....at best you'll power slide off the road instead of understeer off the road.

    You need to sort out the chassis, get the grip dialed in and sort the damping before you will be able to make best use of a Haldex controller...

    In saying that...both David and I both considered fitting one to the S3...but eventually decised it didn't need it...with a correctly set up chassis you can get the back into play without a Haldex controller if you drive accordingly.

    I'd like to have tried it though..
    #23
  24. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    I've had the 'mythical' haldex controller fitted for about 6 months and I have read other people raving about it - my honest opinion is that it should be bottom of the the list of mods to do to your car.
    In normal everyday driving there is no way you would notice anything different, but thats fair enough. In press on driving I cant really tell a difference but my car handles probably about as good as it gets for a S3 (konis, springs, adjustable tie bars, neuspeed arbs).

    PS AMD charged a couple of hours labour for the roll bars

    Dunc
    #24
  25. ianhg
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    ianhg Member

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    we have a guy on vag20v who has the haldex controller in his skoda, he's loving it and says it makes a difference to his re mapped car.
    #25
  26. DuncS3
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    DuncS3 Member

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    Yes, I've read lots of threads where people say it transforms their car, so that means to me that:

    a) the difference is less noticeable on a car that has a heavily modded suspension setup already (aka mine)

    or

    b) theres something wrong with mine, which I doubt...

    I mean after fitting it and booting the car around a long sweeping bend the back end stepped out and that had never happened before but it isnt really that noticeable on my car imo, or as much as other people seem to describe, my car is very neutral.

    Dunc
    #26
  27. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Yes, I've read lots of threads where people say it transforms their car, so that means to me that:

    a) the difference is less noticeable on a car that has a heavily modded suspension setup already (aka mine)

    or

    b) theres something wrong with mine, which I doubt...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    There is an option 'c)' you seem to have forgotten:

    c) The people who are getting 'great' results wouldn't know a great handling or properly set up car if they drove into one, let alone drove one...which means that they don't understand the failings of the car they have, nor how to improve them or resolve them...

    In this situation, different is often mistaken for better. A schoolboy mistake, if we are honest.


    [ QUOTE ]

    I mean after fitting it and booting the car around a long sweeping bend the back end stepped out and that had never happened before but it isnt really that noticeable on my car imo, or as much as other people seem to describe, my car is very neutral.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Exactly...
    ...and is the back end stepping out the fastest or safest way to take a bend?
    I think not...

    I could provoke the rear into play very easily on my S3...get oversteer whenever showboating was required...but in everyday driving I'd much prefer a car that maximises grip and drive but is neutral...ie, no stepping out of the rear end!

    As I said, I'd like to have tried one...but I really don't see the need if you set the car up properly, I'd just like to have seen what effect it would have had.

    I do however, find it hard to believe that my old S3 could have been improved by sending more torque to the rear...made more difficult to drive possibly, or made more dangerous...but 'better', I doubt.

    You never know though...
    #27
  28. Boydave
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    Boydave New Member

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    Ok thanks for your views guys.
    My S3 is supposedly got the quattro GmbH lowered suspension from factory, but it still does tend to understeer too much for my liking.
    I’m thinking uprating the suspension and anti-roll bars is the way forward.
    Would I be best suited just uprating the dampers i.e a set of billy’s, or doing the whole lot, or just the anti-roll bars?

    TIA
    #28
  29. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    If you have quattro GMBH springs, they'll be fine, assuming you like the ride height.
    You should fit uprated dampers...the Bilstein sprint (shorter) dampers are superb...they just work, and work well.

    I would do this before even looking at ARBs.

    If you stick with quattro GMBH springs, you shouldn't need the rear adjustable tie-bars to sort out the suspension geometry...but if you feel like spending another few hundred quid, i'd fit them, as they let you adjust the rear for best set up.

    With that lot fitted...get the suspension alignment done and try to add as much front negative camber as you can....that'll add some front end grip...adding a little toe out will also give the steering some feel...reducing that numb feeling.

    Then look at ARBs...when you have the front end grip to really work the chassis...that way you'll maximise all the individual parts.
    #29
  30. Boydave
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    Boydave New Member

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    Ok thanks for your help m8.
    #30
  31. ianhg
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    ianhg Member

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    thanks for all the info
    #31
  32. myrichdad
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    myrichdad Member

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    LOL, get back coming out whenever you want with zero grip on rears as I currently have!!! eek.....

    just been quoted £85 each for 225/45 17s though P6000s. pretty good i thought.
    #32
  33. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    Not too bad, but... I got two eagle F1 GSD3s fitted and the other two tyres on the car balanced for 177 (170 or less for the two fitted tyres) and after past experiences with both P6000s and P Zero Rossos I won't be paying for either again!
    #33
  34. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    just been quoted £85 each for 225/45 17s though P6000s. pretty good i thought.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's not a bad price...

    I recently had the pleasure of being quoted £288 each for my rear tyres (not on an S3 obviously...)
    Now that was a shock.
    #34
  35. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]

    just been quoted £85 each for 225/45 17s though P6000s. pretty good i thought.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's not a bad price...

    I recently had the pleasure of being quoted £288 each for my rear tyres (not on an S3 obviously...)
    Now that was a shock.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    They are worth every penny though - right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
    #35
  36. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Absolutely JoJo...absolutely.

    Still hurts though...
    #36
  37. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    which tyres does it use then glen?

    I remember have a chuckle when an M3 owner in front of me in the tyre place had to part with pretty close to £500 for two new rear tyres and that's a cheap place!
    #37
  38. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    295/30/18 ZR Rated Michelin Pilot Sport 2s (I'm assured they are PS2s) with the correct Porsche chassis rating (N1)


    I'm still waiting for the contribution from David R to arrive...as he is responsible for at least 2mm worth of wear... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    #38
  39. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    [ QUOTE ]
    295/30/18 ZR Rated Michelin Pilot Sport 2s (I'm assured they are PS2s) with the correct Porsche chassis rating (N1)


    I'm still waiting for the contribution from David R to arrive...as he is responsible for at least 2mm worth of wear... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm sure you were encouraging him! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    Must be a bit of a pain to find the correct tyres!
    #39
  40. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    I'm sure you were encouraging him! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think the sharp inhalation of breath heard on the video whilst David was doing a hot lap, would suggest otherwise...I think I was too frightened to tell him to back off!

    [ QUOTE ]

    Must be a bit of a pain to find the correct tyres!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not too bad...there are tyres from Michelin, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Yokohama and Continental available...
    #40

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