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Horrible rattle...

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by evilscotsman, Nov 4, 2010.

  1. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 4, 2010]
    I have a graunchy, rattly clicky sound coming from either the idler pulley / tensioner or the viscous fan body after the fan burst apart last week so my money is on that, what I cant seem to track down, is whether the viscous fan as it connects to the engine, is just a bearing and a pulley, or does it have any connection whatsoever to the water pump?

    Now I know the waterpump is TB driven, so I'm sure that the viscous fan unit is just a spinny thing with no other function than to be a belt driven fan, cept for the fancy clutch bit in the head of the fan itself, so is it straightforward to pull it and fit one off a breaker? I would get stuck in but its my work vehicle I'd rather know what I was getting into before stripping the car down yet again....any info on the VC unit much appreciated! ive googled and googled to no avail, and thats unusual.
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  2. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 4, 2010]
    If its the same as the 1.8T, its just a bearing the viscous coupling attaches to.

    You can remove it and fit a shorter belt without too much trouble.
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  3. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 5, 2010]
    champion, thats exactly what I was hoping ;) I couldn't even find a picture of the whole VC unit except the fan head, not even a blow up of the engine, thanks mate :thumbsup:
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  4. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 5, 2010]
    ok, it seems the pump is indeed driven by the same belt as the pas, alternator and viscous fan pulley.

    The pulley is a bitch, as it seems held by a left-hand threaded spline bolt from behind, in a cavity on the back of the waterpump housing - and this housing also provides the attachment for the alternator. You need a long spline bit and a caliper spanner to hold the hub still to crack the bolt off. I can wind the tensioner down with an adjustable to slip the belt off and prove for definate what the noise is coming from, as I had a play with one in the scrap yard today but had to give up removing it due to no said caliper spanner which has 2 steel pins on the flat face to engage holes in the pulley itself so the bolt can unscrew. So far I can only find such a spanner on US sites but still searching.

    Not using the viscous fan pulley and a shorter belt may not work properly as the tensioner pulls upward, and the belt goes over it, under the fan pulley, over the alternator, under the pas, over the waterpump then under the crank pulley, so removing the fan pulley means the tensioner is pulling up against nothing except the adjacent alternator which is driven from above so the tensioner would lift the belt off it maybe.

    its a pain....
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  5. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 5, 2010]
    marks running exactly this setup, with no viscous and an electric fan. He should be able to tell you how the tensioner works/belt routing etc.
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  6. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 5, 2010]
    The belt followed the same route as std without having to ( the Viscous fan pulley so it now goes / with the tensioner riding on that straight bit. I used a 1000mm belt instead of a 1200 on my 1.8T. I can attempt pics tomorrow. The VF hub assy is held on with a std direction 8mm allen blot from the back on the 1.8t, i can't imagine the TDi to be much different considering they are similar block setups
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  7. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 5, 2010]
    [​IMG]

    only pic i can find atm, sorry
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
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  8. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 6, 2010]
    cheers lads, will try and find 1m belt tomorrow and see if I can get the damn pulley off.
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  9. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 7, 2010]
    ok the pulley took itself off the engine, so no need to remove the VCF cos it commited hari kari at 5am this morn in the pissin rain and dark on route to work :banghead: snapped the shaft right as it leaves the engine, but the oem belt is a 5PK1587 so if I fit a 1000 belt, thats nearly 600mm shorter obviously, and I cant believe that the VCF pulley at 4" needed 2 feet of belt to go around it? A 1m belt is waaaay shorter, remember the TDi has the water pump, vac pump, pas pump, crank, alternator and tensioner still left to go round. I reckon a 1200 or summat will maybe fit, but halfrauds didnt have any in stock for a car that might still be on the road, austin healey sprite, yeah, but not ford, vauxhall or audi / vw made after 1989 :blink: and their system cant search by part number, just a registration number, so getting a shorter compatible belt was not happening there.....doh!
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
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  10. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 9, 2010]
    well, I got a 5pk1230 belt off a local garage, but its still around 200mm short, and the old one is around 200mm too long now, so its a hunt for a correct length, although I cant decide what length gives a midpoint for the tensioner if you get me, want the tensioner to start taking up the slack halfway from the down position to its normal up position (does that make sense lol) so its not too tight either, dont want to pull the new rad to measure and lose my coolant again just now if I can avoid it as the temps here are in the minus at night just now and im well skint...

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
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  11. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 9, 2010]
    standard 1.8T belt is 1200, and mark fitted a 1000, so that kinda makes sense if your stock belt was 1587 that you'd need one around 1387!

    Wonder why its different! Does the belt drive anything other than the alternator and PAS pump?

    edit: noticed you've actaully said it also drives the water pump and vac pump.

    On the 1.8T there is a small belt that drives the water pump from the front of the PAS pulley, and obviously no vac pump!
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
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  12. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 9, 2010]
    aye that makes sense mate, around a 1400 sounds likely now, the original is massive. Also the alty and the pas need to run the right way (backwards to the crank lol) while the wp runs crank-wise, and the crank has an extra pulley but that dont match any of the engine ones projection distance from the block, so no chance of fitting 2 belts cos as you know the whole lot have to run off the one tensioner eh.

    Its a pain, in Fife there are very few places you can buy a serp belt, and they want a reg number to find the right one etc etc whic wont work for me without a lot of grief finding a car with the right size and type of belt and having its reg too, fokkin halfords are absolute ***** :(

    I've burnt £60 of super unleaded going to work for 4 days in the leggy which would have bought the belt, half filled the audi wi diesel and still had change for a pint!
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  13. Tuffty
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    Tuffty Member

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    [Nov 9, 2010]
    best thing to do is run a tape measure around where the belt would go, or a bit of string then measure.

    gates do a 5pk:
    1413
    1435
    1440
    1453
    1482
    1495

    damn i've been working in a factors too long lol
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  14. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 10, 2010]
    cheers mate, that would be easy, yeah if the new radiator etc removed again which am loathe to do as I just fitted it and put £20 of coolant in 2 days before the pulley sheared off.....but the string method cant account for the tensioner, so I need to find a length that allows the tensioner to take up from half way thru its travel. There is about 2" of gap between the engine block face and the slam panel and you can barely squeeze yer hand in the space to do anything, never mind winding string or a tape measure around all the opposed pulleys so since I been nights this week, and temps are well below freezing round my way, I havent been able to do any of that.

    Last shift last night tho so I'm off for a gates 1413 or a 1435 from the factors in the next town when I get up.

    The pulley snapped off on friday and we have no factors anywhere near that open after 12 noon on a sat and as I do 12 hour night shifts it was impossible to sort out in-between, I needed a measurement so I could order from work then pick up when I was off again, cheers all for the help and suggestions tho!
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  15. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 10, 2010]
    You can put the front panel into service position without draining the rad, which gives you plenty of room.

    If you do want to remove the rad, drain the coolant into a bucket and put it back in again! I've drained ours three or four times since i've had it and put the same stuff back in without any problems. First time i changed the stat and put new coolant in, new stat was jammed shut, so i had to refit the old one about half an hour later, then drain it again to fit the new one once it arrived, then drained it again when i did the timing belt. At 20quid a pop its mental to pour it away!
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  16. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 10, 2010]
    ****, good point mate - never thought about catching the coolant......would be way easier wi the rad out. Aye its bloody dear stuff eh!

    God ah miss ma Tdi.
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  17. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 11, 2010]
    You tight scots, buy the right bits and be done with it ! Also check the tensioner is running true as they wear and pull the belt outwards thus jumping off the pulleys and it can take the engine out when the pulley wrapps itself round the crank... built 2 of those soo far !
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  18. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 11, 2010]
    You saying that if you'd just filled an engine with brand new coolant, ran it up to temp and discovered the new stat was jammed closed, you'd flush all the coolant down the drain, refit the old stat and put another 20quids worth of new coolant in? Then repeat the process again to fit the replacement stat?

    I aint dumping 40quids worth of coolant away for the sake of a faulty themostat that cost 7 quid. Similarly, when i did the timing belt a few months later, the coolant was only a few months old by that point, so i drained it into a bucket and put it back in!
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  19. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 11, 2010]
    I was reffering to the evilscot post as he wanted to mess up with the removal of the viscous fan...sorry if you thought i was hitting at you ! I would re-use the coolant if it was fresh as well, no doubts about-it !
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  20. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 11, 2010]
    the viscous fan bearing seized, causing the engine to twist the head off the pulley. It is gone, broken off, and I need to get it working again wi less than £20 to me name lol.

    Its not about being tight, its about being skint....
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
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  21. evilscotsman
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    evilscotsman Space Cowboy

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    [Nov 12, 2010]
    W00t!

    She lives. A Gates 5PK1368 belt and a wee tweak by drawing the lower alternator bolt out, jacking the alternator away from the motor and reinserting the bolt, then let it down on the mount, got the perfect tension. The next belt down is too small and the next up too big.

    Like the three bears story I heard once.....

    Ah TDi bliss again.....its sooooo nice and smooth to drive compared to the jap motors.
    #21

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