1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Help needed!..3.2Q DSG Hesitant engine ~ 2k rpm

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by 3.2 Ju, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 7, 2009]
    Took a trip up to Harrogate Audi today to see what was happening and they've finally got the car stripped down!. No word on the problem as the tech wasn't in but I expect in another couple of days or so and I should know some more.
    In the meantime it's another weekend without the car:sob:

    Fitting some Eibachs to a mates 3.2 tomorrow although I should be doing mine as I've got a set of shiny new H&R springs under the kitchen table waiting to go on.

    Best of luck tomorrow Coxy!
  2. imran62@gmail.com
    Offline

    imran62@gmail.com DSG

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 8, 2009]
    Hey guys has any one got round to resolving this problem?? i love the dsg box but this just spoils the whole experince of the smooth gear change ?
  3. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 8, 2009]
    Were working on it Imran :) If you have any thoughts then let us know.....if not then watch this space ....
  4. TAC
    Offline

    TAC 3.2 V6 Burble... hmmmmmmm

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    3
    [Nov 8, 2009]
    This problem arising at37k worries me only had my car a week and am at 34K so crossing fingers and hoping for the best!!! Will keep and eye on this thread.....

    Mine at present it fine and there is no spoiling of gear changing I am hoping that the cars mentioned above have just come from a dodgy run from Audi.... Mines an 06 and she runs at present sweet as a nut!!! I've probably jinxed myself now!!!! :keule:
  5. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 8, 2009]
    I wouldn't worry mate, most of the problems with the 3.2's affected the 53/04 and 54 plate cars i.e. the Mk4 R32's and the 8P1 A3 3.2's. I think i've been unlucky with mine being an 05.
    Just enjoy the car as the vast majority of 3.2's out there don't have any problems at all.
  6. TAC
    Offline

    TAC 3.2 V6 Burble... hmmmmmmm

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    3
    [Nov 8, 2009]
    Cheers for that, am certainly enjoying the car some plonker in a RRsport tried to under take me today and I gave him what for don't think he expected that!!!!:kissmyrings:
  7. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 10, 2009]
    update:
    This is what i was greeted with when i cracked the rocker cover off:
    [​IMG]

    quite grim for a 58k engine....

    so i carried on with the investigation cleaning as i went on:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    nice colour eh?

    [​IMG]

    so stripped it down had a good look at the parts, suspected the rear cam sprocket vvt was seized, so swapped it out.

    built it back up and noticed the timing on the rear sprocket is out by half a tooth.
    swapped in every part i had, and the thing was still there, so i can only assume the top timing chain has stretched...
    This is the thing that bakes your head - the front sprocket timed up perfectly, which shouldnt be the case if the chain is stretched, so the only thing I can assume is that the chain has stretched an entire link at the front, allowing me to get the timing correct at the front, and just half a tooth out at the back due to the shorter length between the sprockets at the top and length of chain from the intermediate sprocket to the front cam sprocket. Either that or the VVT is absorbing the reading at the front.

    there was no way to get the timing marks lined up correctly.
    so it looks like the engine is coming out on saturday and the chains are getting done...oh joy.

    sorry to break the bad news guys.

    I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of long life servicing. Dont do it!!

    Ian
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  8. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 10, 2009]
    I cant believe that chain stretched one whole link...given they dont stretch they just wear. you should be able to feel the slack in each link, x that by the number of links and decide if that = a hole link of wear ??
  9. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 10, 2009]
    well i find it difficult to believe to to be honest paddy.
    there are 16 links across the tops of the cams, and that is just less than half a tooth out, with is approximately 4 - 5mm, so you are talking 0.4mm on each link, thats quite small. Doing some more checks before i bite the bullet and go for it, but i think that is the culprit.

    Thinking on I may have slightly mis-set the inlet cam sprocket and that may be fractionally out too, but the VVT on the cam is hiding it. For some reason the rear sprocket vvt locks up when there is no oil pressure in it, but the inlet cam one doesnt.

    I have had 2 other fairly experienced people look at it and they are coming to the same conclusions.
    my mate has timed up loads of R32's and says that back sprocket is definately wrong, and the only thing it can be is the chain.
  10. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 10, 2009]
    Yea but that is still .020" per link and that is a lot !!. If you have that much wear i would expect a/ the sprockets to have worn the same and B/ you would be able to lift the chain off the sprocket ie. hold link 1 to 12 round/on the sprocket and link 6 should be quite lose on the teeth...3mm by your calc's.
    I have timed in dozens of DOHC motorcycle engines and i have nearly always had to slot the sprocket mount holes to get the things right. Manufacturers tolerance can easily be half a tooth. Most proper tuning companies with sell slotted sprockets for cams just so you can time them in...
    this is the sort of thing
    http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=708
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  11. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 10, 2009]
    I am going to check again but to my mind something certainly is not right.
    vernier pulleys aren't an option with the 3.2 as the VVT mechanism is inside the cam sprockets.

    I dont believe that vag can be so lax with that timing mark, and bear in mind I have changed the exhaust cam, the sprocket and the VVT carrier, and it still lines up at the same point. The only component I haven't changed on there is the chain.
  12. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 11, 2009]
    Paddy, can you copy me the section of the manual that has the bit on timing the engine up please. So i can double check everything has been done correctly please.

    cheers mate
  13. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 11, 2009]
    I sent it as a word Doc so you should get the pictures....I hope :thumbsup:
  14. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 11, 2009]
    just read through and it seems everything i have done is correct.
    going have another go tomorrow, but I dont think it will make a difference - that back cam is way out.
  15. edition
    Offline

    edition Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,428
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 11, 2009]
    Engine doesn't look too bad does it?

    That oil clean off easy enough?
  16. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 11, 2009]
    no, that i think is stained for life!
    thats quite poor for the mileage i thought. its like a 2-3mm thick rock hard varnish that not even neat petrol can shift!

    all the working surfaces appear to be clean though.
  17. edition
    Offline

    edition Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,428
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 11, 2009]
    Yeh be nice for all to know what's what once you find the issue.

    Were the timing marks lined up before removal? Sorry if thats a silly question...
  18. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    its like a 2-3mm thick rock hard varnish ....do you mean mm or thou ?? If mm them we ware buggered re oilways...
  19. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 12, 2009]
  20. edition
    Offline

    edition Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,428
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Some fueling issue then..... Maybe....

    Hiccup is the right phrase for what I had when it was doing it....
  21. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    can someone pull the valve of the top of the canister and see if makes a difference?
    I would but my engine is in bits!
  22. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Mines still in bits too. Some of the parts are on back order and they are not expecting to start rebuilding till next Monday, so that's another week without the car.
    It's not really bothering me at the moment though as I'm stuck at home with Flu!
  23. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Coxy...
    Pich black and pissing down here so will have a look tomorrow.....What valve and what canister ?
  24. edition
    Offline

    edition Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,428
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Yeh what valve....
  25. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    Hope he doesn't mean that canister of cyanide i carry in the boot !!
  26. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    no the carbon canister. Its in the front right of the engine bay. actually it might be a read herring as my mate knew about this fault and when i was down his he nipped the pipe from the carbon canister to the inlet manifold and it didnt make a difference.

    still worth a try though, here is the recall data:
    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recall...rchtype=quicksearch&summary=true&refurl=email

    we run the same gear so its feasible that we could suffer the same problems.

    I have a made a nice informative video for anyone interested to watch showing you the plight of my timing chains. I personally believe that its stretched, but lets see what you guys think.
    [​IMG]
  27. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    I haven't got sound at home on this PC so will have a look at work Fri...

    My only comment would be that mine was doing this at 36k miles and 3 oil changes so i doubt my chain had stretched. How far extended is you tensioner ...
    I still think that your looking at manufacturers tolerance their. Half a tooth out is common in my experience. I remember the first engine i built ( a leyland B series race engine for a MGB) don't laugh...I fitted a 712 Kent cam to that and it was nearly a whole tooth out. went like **** of a shovel but was totally flat except for a dynamite power band of about 2000 revs.........lol
  28. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 12, 2009]
    dont know mate, My friends have timed a number of them up and he says they all hit the notches smack on.

    I think you may be right on older engines, but I doubt VAG would be so sloppy.
    Plus they guide for setting the timing up says after 2 revolutions, try and fit the cam tool on the end, and mine doesnt fit!
    Its impossible to see how far the tensioner is extended, its hidden behind everything.

    that picture quality is a bit ropey, i will get something better up tomorrow, and i said advanced when i meant retarded a couple of times at the end of the vid, but you get what i mean :)
  29. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 13, 2009]
    Ian...you said the rear sprocket VVT was probably jammed so you swopped it....Silly question but it is IDENTICAL to the one you fitted ?? tooth position i am thinking ??

    I booked mine in for a remap with Austec Racing UK for next Friday so if its a not mapping we should be able to cross that off the list.
  30. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 13, 2009]
    Is that a custom map Paddy or a generic one? I would think if it's custom then they would be able to just allow for any timing issue in the map if that's causing the issue!
    I'm starting to feel were getting somewhere now though with all the investigating that Ian's doing:applaus:
  31. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 13, 2009]
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  32. edition
    Offline

    edition Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,428
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 13, 2009]
    How much is that if you dont mind me asking....
  33. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 13, 2009]
    Know what ?...i dont know.....lol
    I think he said £380 inc Vat...buit it might have been £280......just hope it wasnt £880 or something. trouble with being half deaf !!
    any way AMD Woking wanted £500 +vat !!

    Its only money and you only live once :))
  34. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 13, 2009]
    Will be interesting to see the RR read outs before and after.
    I think my vote is still with APR though once fixed as you get so much more via the cruise control i.e Anti theft and its £430 all in.
  35. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 15, 2009]
    ok we have some progress and I am believeI have the answer to our problems.

    so i changed the chains over today, which ended up being a full engine out job, oh joy.

    The chains were indeed worn and were about 4mm longer than the new ones i put in. Everything is a lot tighter now. The rollers were worn on the chains too, and you could lift them off the teeth when they were on the sprocket.

    So all in all with the engine out I am going to replace all the bits that would ever need doing, so i dont have to worry about anything wearing out and getting any more nasty bills (sick of working on cars) water pump, serpentine belt, seals and temp senders etc. Will replace the radiator too as that looks like its got a slight leak.

    Anyways, all of this above was not the problem that we are experiencing. The problem I am 99% certain lies in the rear cam sprocket. inside it there is a locking pin that locks the cam in an advanced position when the engine is off. this is the start position of the cams. as the revs rise the exhaust vvt activates the and the oil pressure releases the pin and the forces the cam back into a retarded positon, to allow the exhaust valves to be still slightly open as the inlet valves open, increasing flow in the cylinder.
    Whats happening is this pin is made of hardened steel, and the hole it sits in isn't and the pin has worn away at the hole on the power side and elongated it. Basically the upshot of this is the exhaust cam runs too retarded at slow speeds and its allowing mixture to enter through the inlet and leave through exhaust valves before it has a chance to be burned.

    This will manifest itself as slightly rough running, and mpgs will suffer depending on how worn that sprocket is. Now I know this to be the case as I have a spare sprocket and that is elongated too, but not as much as my old one! that hesitancy 'on off' the throttle feeling i am certain is the cam slogging about because of that sprocket

    My mate has an A3 motor too and that has the same problem, but its throwing his timing a mile out!

    there are loads of examples on the web when you look and they all have the same problem and they are all the audi engine.

    Interestingly the r32 engine doesnt have these locking pins in the rear sprocket...no idea why not.

    so the next thing I am going to do is make audi aware of this major design flaw and see if we can get something from it.

    pictures to follow tomorrow.

    Ian
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2009
  36. paddy
    Offline

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes Received:
    123
    [Nov 15, 2009]
    "Interestingly the r32 engine doesnt have these locking pins in the rear sprocket...no idea why not."

    I would guess Audi know they have a problem then. still ..top marks mate. for the rest of us a sproket change is not the end of the world..Maybe Julian could have a look at his while his engine is down as well ?
  37. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 15, 2009]
    I could give them a ring tomorrow and ask them to check it, but it's pretty much out of my hands at the moment.
    Thing is though, if we both changed chains AND sprockets, would we really know where the fault was?
    At this moment in time I'll just be glad to get the car back as it's been almost 3 weeks now and the only news I've had in that time, I've had to chase them for:mad:

    On another note, I wonder which parts they are waiting for if Ian didn't have any problems getting them........mmm interesting!! Surely they wouldn't tell me fibs:whistle2:
  38. 3.2 Ju
    Offline

    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,380
    Likes Received:
    84
    [Nov 15, 2009]
    Looking forward to seeing a pic of the offending article!

    Good work detective:icon_thumright:
  39. Coxylaad
    Offline

    Coxylaad Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 15, 2009]
    cheers, I have some very helpful and clever friends willing to help me out which helps a lot!
  40. imran62@gmail.com
    Offline

    imran62@gmail.com DSG

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Nov 16, 2009]
    If you dont mind me asking who have you taken your car too.. Not too far from bradford ,just noticed? Also whats you mpg showing steady driving ??

Share This Page