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Help needed!..3.2Q DSG Hesitant engine ~ 2k rpm

-Ju- Aug 26, 2009

  1. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    na this problem manifests itself when the car is stationary, ruling out dsg problems - Plus I think its Edition who has the same fault and he has a manual box!
     
  2. edition

    edition Active Member

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    That's right Coxy mines manual.

    If you read another thread I have atm. its about the MAF error I have on mine. It didn't go away with a new MAF so suspect wiring...... I'm wondering if this is the issue i'm having with intermitant hesitancy.....
     
  3. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    ah! that just jogged my memory - i am sure i noticed an audi invoice for a wiring loom repair on either the lambda probes or the MAF sensor in my service history.

    wiring would make a lot of sense you know, as its then A3 specific.
     
  4. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Yeah they thought mine was wiring so re-did an earth so they said. Then I took it back with the MAF error again and they replaced it although they did say the normally with MAF issue you get a high figure not a low one and my cars showing low.
     
  5. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    I dont see why a wiring fault would only show up once it comes off choke. I think i am back to my first thought months ago about this fluttering on the advance curve which i am sure starts at 2k rpm. It has a basic ignition point, say 5* BTDC which is variable in so much as the anti stall, choke etc can advance this to increase engine revs but the jump from that to the start of the advance curve is to much and it flutters. I bet if you could advance the tickover timing up so the ramp up on to the advance curve was less it would help. I remember years ago Laverda M/C's did a similar thing and if you put a timing light on them you would see the timing mark jumping about all over the place untill you got through the point where the engine revs increased but the advance bob weights hadn't started the throw out. I know this is all electronic but the principle's the same if its just not set up correctly. i wonder what the factory margin of error on timing is ?? not good i bet.
     
  6. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    reasons why the wiring fault wont show up on choke or warm up, is that lambdas dont get used on the warmup map I am sure.
     
  7. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    OK...so should we draw lots to see who changes the Lambds's :yes:
     
  8. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    well i have changd everything apart from the lambdas and the oil pump so not me lol
     
  9. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Hehe how much are the lambas???
     
  10. IN-A3

    IN-A3 Member

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    Last time i asked about £110 each for pre cat.

    The connectors are on the bulkhead.

    Black for bank 1 and brown for bank 2
     
  11. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    I got original equipment ones for my r32 corrado for 70 quid a piece, from a lambda probe specialist.
     
  12. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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  13. -Ju-

    -Ju- Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    Some interesting and well worded reading on Lambda sensor and fault diagnosis HERE. Might have a go with the scope facility on vcds when I understand it lol!
     
  14. glenn-3.2

    glenn-3.2 Member

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    QUOTE -Observing the sensor’s waveform on a scope is a good way to see whether or not it is slowing down with age. If the sensor becomes sluggish, it can create hesitation problems during sudden acceleration . "the hesitation "is there regardless . @30 -40 mph @2k , if your suddenly start to accelerate you would'nt notice hesitation. I'M SORRY GUYS, it would appear that you've all spent a small fourtune in the race to fix this problem. as i've said in past threads, the guys who's looked at mine have come to the conclusion.after thinking. first off lamba they still think its mapping issues,and a remap they could not garantee a fix. i may have one option to get to the bottom of this problem. long storey cut short. my brother's ex- girlfriend is high up with Volkeswagon in germany. and her brother test wheels and tyres for AUDI . im wondering weather he could find out unofficialy , weather it's worth pursueing spending any more money to fix, or to call it a day , i'll keep you posted
     
  15. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Glen
    I am with you really, we could go on throwing money at this for ever. this is really an Audi problem and its not down to the customer to do their R&D for them.
    I don't think its a coincidence that later engines seem to be quite different in power out put after a fuel intake change.
     
  16. -Ju-

    -Ju- Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    Most of the money that has been spent on mine was to cure the noisy timing chain (£3100) and that was paid for by Audi/Supplying dealer. They also paid to have a new MAF fitted, camshaft sensors and a set of spark plugs in the hope that it cured the misfire. All that I have put on the car is an oil pump (which is believed to be the cause of the timing chain stretching) and a fuel filter that cost £20. I also think you'll find that Coxyladd did his chain for the same reason and most of the subsequent parts that he has tried, were supplied by friends of his.
    Who knows if we will eventually find a cure or even if there IS one!!
    Paddy have you seen the problems that the later FSI 3.2's have with carbon build up!, think I prefer the slight hesitation lol!
     
  17. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Paddy I thought you said yours wasn't like this to start with though.... Kind rules out that theory......

    I really need to pursue the MAF issue my car has as mines been like it since 20k miles and its now done 52k and hasn;t got any worse but is still there intermitantly (i think more so on a cold day).
     
  18. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Julian, how much work was the oil pump? Don't fancy giving a fellow 3.2 a hand do you! :) Just thinking it might be prudent to change it....
     
  19. -Ju-

    -Ju- Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    I have to say Jonathan, it wasn't a particularly nice job as it involved laying under the car for a few hours and taking the sump off with limited access . I don't mind passing tools though:sly:
     
  20. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Hehe cheers for the offer. Wonder how much dealer would charge to replace.........
     
  21. glenn-3.2

    glenn-3.2 Member

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    the predigament i'm in at the moment is,i've owned car since mid december done 1400 miles. have a years warranty, which would appear useless, because unless the car comes up with a fault you can't get it fixed under the dealers warranty. and yet they know there's a problem [fault] .since going to the Independant specialist,who states it could be costly changing a number of parts to hopefuly cure the problem. i have know put this to the main dealer. sugesting ,may be they spend copyiously amounts of money on car to sort it out OR buy the car back as i have told them there has been a problem after the first 200 miles .they say that they will look into that. that was a week ago,my intention is to be a pain in the butt, and then bring in trading standards,as i have been very resonable in them having my car for 19 days of the 55 days i have owned. still with out a cure
     
  22. -Ju-

    -Ju- Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    That's how I got the chain done Glen, I put it in writing after speaking with consumer direct and they had to act on it.
    I also have a 12 month warrany which I purchased myself (Tesco finest) and I'm keeping that in mind as a backup.
    When mine was at it's worst it was anywhere from 1200rpm to 2800rpm and it almost felt like I was stabbing the brakes intermittantly.Now I can only sometimes feel it and it's very, very slight between 1500rpm and 2000rpm so a definate improvement for me.
     
  23. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    I think the carbon build up is mostly on the US market cars where...despite claiming to be the world bench mark for everything...they have 85 Ron petrol :sadlike:

    It is a strange thing these problems. I can live with the hesitation if it gets no worse but it definitely didnt do it for the first 35k miles but does it now at 43k miles.
    My start up problem where it runs on 3 cylinders till you switch off and re start is more of a worry but i brought some electrical contact cleaner with a view to doing the MAF plug etc and put it in the back till the sun comes out......and the car has been fine ever since which means i have scared it into submission without even opening the bonnet. :laugh:
     
  24. glenn-3.2

    glenn-3.2 Member

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    in fairness as i previously said i could live with it as it idles ok, it the fact that your hard pushed to hold it on 2k after it's warmed up and while your driving at 30 -45 mph @ 2k which in fairness is quite a bit nowedays [ built up areas etc] giving you that hunting sensation. because i bought from toyota they obviously have'nt got the same equipment as audi,plus the last time in it was down to them and not toyota warranty. and they said there was no more money in the pot to fix under them selves. as i explained it was't my concerned, hence why i suggested they buy back. bloody cars, should neverhave got rid of my mk iv supra tt
     
  25. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Hehehehe yeah paddy your 3 cyl. issue is one we don't have so think your on your own with that!

    It's the hesitation issue that I think we all have to some degree and there has to be a solution as R32 run the same bits and don't have the issue!

    That said mine is very slight and not too frequent and mines been doing it for the last 35k.....
     
  26. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    On days like today when i put mine in sport mode and drive home with the thing howling through its Remus exhaust at 5-6k rpm... i can forgive it most things. Its simply not meant to do 2krpm...and it is the only A3 to have without a doubt. :yes:
     
  27. edition

    edition Active Member

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    Hehe yeah there is that!!!! Think I need to invest in a sporty exhaust, mines just too quiet!
     
  28. paul_b

    paul_b Member

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    Is this affecting all 3.2s, or just earlier ones? I guess if it's mileage dependent then it stands to reason that earlier cars will be affected first and then 2006 cars as they pick up the miles. Reading this I am tempted to go for a 2.0T instead and remap it, or a Mk5 R32 but the A3 3.2 is good value and I'd rather have the sound of a V6.
     
  29. glenn-3.2

    glenn-3.2 Member

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    i'm in a bit of a dilema, as you no i'm in the same boat with regards to this hesitation, and in fairness may be not as bad as some of you. well the garage has come back to me in regards to my question i put to them 2wks ago asking them to fix car or give me a refund. the main princible phoned me yesterday ,saying, as good custermer. would i like to go through there garages web page and see if there a car there i would like, ie toyota -lexus, well i have looked. [a]nothing in toyota range. lexus,anything i liked are all 3-4k more expenseive . so i've again [and it's the last time] put the ball back in there court ,saying find me another 3.2 without the hesitation,and the same spec or better.basicaly i'm thinking whats the chances of them finding one without the 3.2 problems. at least they can't say [a] given the chance to fix change a car with in there garages .[c] find me another audi 3.2..so then finnaly the only option will be to give me a refund. i'm trying to go the softly softly route giving into there,try this etc . in fairness after my 3.0ltr tt supra & 3.2 audi theres not a lot out there that takes my fancy, the wife says keep it's not that bad,but if it gets worse, i'll kick my self for not taking the chance of getting out of this situation, what to you guy's think? any thoughts on what £10k will buy me in comparison. wife metiond she quite liked V.W TOUREG any thoughts:w00t:
     
  30. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    mines really starting to annoy me now. standard type acceleration in d mode up to 2.5k (where D mode always sits) is really surgy and on off, like hunting.

    has anyone on here changed the lambda probes at all?

    Basically all I have left to change is the lambdas and the oil pump. but i am loathed to do it incase its just more money wasted.

    Somebody must be will to take the risk - lord knows I have lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  31. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    This is crazy....We need to get in touch with audi.
     
  32. -Ju-

    -Ju- Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    Not changed the Lambdas yet Ian, but I have logged the output from them. Interestingly the output from the post cat lambdas were very different from each other. I'm looking at exploring this a bit further this weekend by logging a known good 3.2 to see which one is reading high or low. Not sure what this means as yet or what job/influence, if any, the post cat Lambda have on fueling?

    @ Glen, Only you can decide that mate. My hesitation is almost gone now and is only really noticeable when parked. I for one can and will live with it as a characteristic if I have to! I do like the Tuareg by the way but it's vastly different from an A3 3.2!
     
  33. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    the problem we have is no one knows what the lambda reading should actually be. My understanding is the post cat lambdas are only there to check the condition of the cats. if one is not reading right then maybe the cat is on its way out, or the lambda in front of it is not working correctly and its having a knock on effect further back.
     
  34. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    I will hook mine up this morning. coxy is right its the front Lambda's that are controlling the mixture. i will see what my readings are. they will obviously show within range or you would have a fault code
     
  35. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    i suppose we are looking for something that is showing the values jumping up and down somewhere at the right point
     
  36. glenn-3.2

    glenn-3.2 Member

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    i had booked the car in ,for tueseday to get tow bar removed and have a new bottom of bumper sprayed and put on, just been in and canceled until i know what i'm doing. i explaind the predigament i'm in. and he replied ,when he worked for vw. a custumer with a r32 same problem. park on the main road outside the garage, with the car plasterd in posters saying don't buy this type of car etc. he said the garage tried to obsure the golf with van's etc. but because the guy park on the main road it was the garages van's that were know causing the obstructin. they soon sorted the car, he recons from memory on that pacific car the cats were partialy blocked giving intermiten problems. once again it's some thing to consider, unless some one has de-cated and still has problem:crying:
     
  37. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Cats are self cleaning. a good blast up the M-Way should sort that and i do a regular 350 mile stint M25-M11. the cats are restrictive at the top end as i found with my RR session when it was remapped.
     
  38. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    If you have 10 minutes this explains a few basics ( from the vagcom web site)

    Some of the most common Fault Codes (DTC's) pertain to fuel trim (rich mixture, lean mixture, etc.) Here is an explanation of fuel trim and what it does for us. The ECU controls Air/Fuel mixture in order to maintain power, efficiency, and emissions. A/F is expressed as either a ratio (14.7:1 for example) or as a Lambda value. With iso-octane ("ideal" gasoline), Lambda of 1.0 is equal to 14.7:1 A/F. This is known as "Stoichiometric", a condition where there is a perfect balance between oxygen molecules and the various hydrogen and carbon based molecules in petroleum. With the oxygenated gasoline that most of us use, actual A/F ratio of 15:1 is closer to stoichiometric.If Lambda is greater than 1.0, then there is a surplus of air and the engine is running lean. If Lambda is less than 1.0, then there is a surplus of fuel and the engine is running rich. It should be noted that the ratios are mass-based, not volume-based.

    So, why don't we always run at 1.0 all the time? Well, we do MOST of the time. At cruise and idle, mixture is held tightly to 1.0 to keep the catalytic convertor at optimal efficiency, so the emissions are minimized. However, when we need acceleration, the mixture gets richer. Why? Maximum power is made between 0.85 to 0.95 Lambda (12.5 to 14.0 A/F with iso-octane). So, under acceleration, mixtures get richer. Sometimes you want to get even richer under acceleration to keep detonation (pre-ignition of the mixture from excess cylinder temperatures) away. The 1.8T has a relatively high compression ratio for a turbocharged engine, which especially under lots of boost, is very succeptible to detonation).

    So, now that we know that the ECU wants to be able to control the A/F ratio. It has a prescribed set of values (maps) for a given RPM, Load, etc. So, the ECU tells the injectors to pulse for exactly XX.X milliseconds and that SHOULD get us the proper A/F ratio that we want. Well, if you tell an employee to go do something, you want to make sure they actually did it, right? The ECU has some snitches (the front O2 sensor and the MAF, for the most part) that will report back whether or not the desired mixture has been attained. The rear O2 sensor is used mostly to monitor the condition of the catalytic convertor, although in some applications it also contributes to trim information.

    Based on feedback from the snitches, the ECU learns to apply a correction factor to its commands to the fuel injectors. If you know that your employees take longer than the standard allotted time to do a specified job, you will need to adjust for that in your planning (injectors are in a union, so it is tough to fire them ). The learned values go between the maps in the ECU's Flash ROM (the "chip") and the signal to the fuel injectors. These learned compensations are known as "trim". So, when you see "trim", it means "compensation".

    "Add" means additive trim, which is addressing an imbalance at idle. When the ECU is using additive trim, it is telling the injectors to stay open a fixed amount longer or shorter. The malfunction (e.g. vacuum leak) becomes less significant as RPM increase. For additive adaptation values, the injection timing is changed by a fixed amount. This value is not dependent on the basic injection timing.

    "Mult" mean multiplicative trim, which is addressing an imbalance at all engine speeds. The malfunction (e.g. clogged injector) becomes more severe at increased RPM. For multiplicative adaptation values, there is a percentage change in injection timing. This change is dependent on the basic injection timing.

    You can check your current state of trim by using VAG-COM or equivalent to look in Group 032 (in many modern ECU's, consult your Factory Repair Manual for the specific group for your particular vehicle) in your engine measuring blocks. The first two fields will have percentages. The first field tells the fuel trim at idle (Additive). The second field tells the fuel trim at elevated engine speeds (Multiplicative). Negative values indicate that the engine is running too rich and oxygen sensor control is therefore making it more lean by reducing the amount of time that the injectors are open. Positive values indicate that the engine is running too lean and oxygen sensor control is therefore making it richer by increasing the amount of time that the injectors are open.

    It is totally normal for both the first and second fields to be something other than zero. In fact, zeros IN BOTH FIELDS indicates that either you just cleared codes (which will reset fuel trim values) or something isn't working properly. If values get too far away from zero, it will cause a DTC (fault code) and can set off the MIL (commonly referred to as the Check Engine Light, or CEL). Specifications for normal operation are usually somewhere near +/- 10%.

    In general, an out-of-spec value in the first field (Additive) indicates a vacuum leak since it is mostly present at idle, when vacuum is highest. An out-of-spec value in the second field (Multiplicative) indicates a fault at higher RPM, and may point to a faulty MAF.

    Here's a good sanity check for the status of your MAF. Do a full-throttle run all the way to redline in a single gear (second works fine). Group 002 usually shows air mass in g/s (in many modern ECU's, consult your Factory Repair Manual for the specific group for your particular vehicle). Your peak airflow should be roughly 0.80 times your horsepower if you are close to sea level. So, if you have a stock 150 hp 1.8T, expect around 120 g/s. If you see significantly less than that, you MAF may be on the way out. Also note that airflow will be markedly different at higher altitudes due to reduced ambient air pressure, especially with naturally aspirated engines that do not have forced induction to overcome that deficiency. This still works if you are chipped, but "race" programs may make more power through timing, rather than airflow. Therefore, take all readings with a grain of salt.
    Andy 11:30, 8 May 2006 (Eastern Standard Time)

    VAG-COM-FAQ-1.1
     
  39. Coxylaad

    Coxylaad Member

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    interesting stuff there. but how do you tell if the lamdas are actually reading correctly!
     
  40. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Been up and down the local by-pass today running blocks for lambda bank 1 and 2 but while i cant be sure what the values should be i am sure that both sensors are in agreement. I do get a cylinder mis fire count on pots 1 and 2 but then i know that !! what it dosnt do is register a fault code or reason for the misfire so it could be anything !!
     

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