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Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by ramos333, Oct 14, 2011.
My Revo V10 is fine! Smooth as silk
Above anything else I'm really pleased for you that the car is working as it should be, and the drive is right on the money. What's great about getting it remapped to compare so soon is that least it shows there is something with some of the newer cars the Revo code is conflicting with. As soon as the bloody dealer delivers my car maybe we can find out.
Revo v10 is smooth I can vouch for that now after v9, as for plug issues time will tell.
I had the 2.0TFSI k04, but you cannot compare it to NA engines.
TFSI engines are lean running, hot burning engines, with massive cylinderical pressures being exerted to the spark plugs. A aggressive mapped car boosting 1.5 bar is alot of pressure.
Driving style also depends on how long the plugs will last.
My TTRS is just 12 months old and ive alread had 3 sets of OEM plugs, which audi have released revisions for, and I have now ditched them for NGK race plugs.
Under sustained heavy loads I was suffering massive misfires with the OEM plugs, reducing the timing helped in that it wouldnt do it as often. Race plugs fitted and the misfire is history.
I'm running the latest Revo map and it's a smooth and strong pull all the way through the rev range.
I track my car also which really gives it a work out and cannot fault Revo in the slightest.
I had mine set-up by a Revo technician.
We did logged runs and then adjusted with the SPS before doing more logged runs to get the settings right as opposed to taking "educated" guesses with the settings from information obtained online which could potentially lead to these misfires.
most people who buy revo are not going to pay £150 extra for SPS so the "one map fits all" should be capable of running a wide variety of engine conditions or it should be sold as something that needs to set up by the dealer.
also you are stg 2 with non OEM parts unlike us here with stock engines so its not surprising you needed the map set to your spec.
Paddy, did the dealer tell you what version of code was on your car? (9 I'm presuming).
Wanting to be objective I'm concerned there are version control issues with dealers that need resolving?
I originally had 9 and had a stutter at a constant 3k rpm when on cruise. I went back and found that they had loaded the wrong version and had V10 put on. That was fine for about 2k miles then i got the same stutter back. Its like the engine cuts completely, sort of coughs. Identical to the symptoms i had with V9 but now on anything more than 1/4 throttle when pulling.
Had new plugs fitted yesterday so will give it a couple of days, NGK said dont run Iridiums BKR7EIX in the S3, specifically designed for Porker GT3 only. ??
Its starting to look like we had an initial problem with the V9 map and audi then had a major problem ( which they keep to themselves as usual) with S3 plugs and that is throwing up the same symptoms as the V9 revo on the V10 map which is an unfortunate coincidence....leading people, myself included, to assume the V10 was reverting to the V9 problems., I have a theory on all this but i am late for work !!!!!!!! catch you later
Being fair,and ignoring that mine is an 08 car,it's also been set up on a rolling road(and on the open road) using Revo's software and laptop datalogging,so it's not exactly off-the-shelf.
Paddy, I think it's really interesting that NGK are not recommending the BKR7EIX for the S3, and something that needs more looking into as finding the right answer could save a lot of problems.
I'm intrigued to know, part number aside(I know BMW didnt get round to telling you what they fitted), were the approved NGK plugs you had fitted Iridium?
NGK BKR7EIX have been the recommended tuning plug for this lump since 2008, but as to how this came about??? The Porker engine will operate under very different parameters I'd imagine, so I'm intrigued to see what NGK have recommended as an alternative, and whether the part number will cross reference against the OEM ones Audi stock.
My Dad used to sell spark plugs from his engineering firm 30+ years ago, and he always maintains NGK had the best lifespan performance (most constant & even), and had very low failure rate against say Champion.
Makes you wonder if manufacturers learn from failures of parts in engine (eg revision C to D in dump valves), if the changes and 'environmental' updates (car changed CO2 and tax brackets in 2009) have any bearing on how maps perform. As maps are costly to produce in man hours / acquiring cars / rolling road time etc. it is not feasible to be building 57 varieties of map for an EA888, but it seems it's no longer the case that one size fits all.
You are going through the same stages as what I did, and the car was fine for 2 weeks then the issues came back (still running same NGK plugs on new MTM Map) Do what I did. When the issue comes back call out Audi assist for your hesitation issues (saves you keep going to the dealer) and ask them to clear your learning / adaprtion codes from the ECU. I gaurantee it will feel fine until the car re learns itself.
Get a refund, mention me to Kim and i'm sure he'll sort a 'deal' out for you like he did for me
Well I am now running V10 with a new set of plugs, lets see how long they last, but just remember i had v9 on and have done 20k plus, and only used 1 set of plugs, and those were changed to see if that would solve my initial hesitation that V10 has done.
It now could be that the plugs recommended by Audi are not right for revo, where as before they were right.
I've e-mailed NGK/NTN UK this morning and asked their technical team to provide guidance on why the BKR7EIX is being given as the recommended plug for tuned EA888's, and what they would recommend in place of these for:
a) Standard engines
b) tuned engines (inc. race plug option)
I've offered to send them close up pictures of NGK7's / 8's / OEM plugs with various mileage on them so they can do some visual analysis and assessment, and when I get a response I'll post it back on here.
SPARK PLUG UPDATE
This morning I spoke with NGK about some of the misfire issues / plug dilemmas that owners of standard / modified cars have been experiencing, and they have kindly provided a list of considerations for us to think about with respect to selection the optimum plug.
PLEASE NOTE: The following information does not constitute a formal recommendation from NGK/NTK UK Ltd other than where OEM standards and running conditions are quoted.
NGK/NTK's state that a car should always be run with the appropriate spec plug as specified by the manufacturer. Should the owner choose to modify their vehicle and subsequently insert an alternative plug choice NGK/NTK UK accept no responsibility or subsequent liability for failures or damage as a result of these changes. They do not provide a formal recommendation for alternative plug specification for tuned engines. Any guidance provided to the general public by NGK/NTK UK to assist owners in selecting an alternative plug choice for lightly or heavily modified vehicles is done so as a gesture of goodwill, and as part of the process of trial and error by the owner. The owners can choose to follow this advice but does so entirely at their own risk.
Put simply; leave the car as it was intended, and if you do anything else, you are (quite rightly) on your own!
1) What is a spark plug?
Before we go into any detail about the plugs, I'm just going to insert a labelled diagram of the plug shamelessly stolen from NGK's website to help inform the uninititiated!
A spark plug is an electrical device that fits into the cylinder head of some internal combustion engines and ignites compressed fuels such as aerosol, gasoline, ethanol, and liquefied petroleum gas by means of an electric spark.
Spark plugs have an insulated central electrode which is connected by a heavily insulated wire to an ignition coil or magneto circuit on the outside, forming, with a grounded terminal on the base of the plug, a spark gap inside the cylinder.
Reciprocating internal combustion engines can be divided into spark-ignition engines, which require spark plugs to initiate combustion, and compression-ignition engines (diesel engines), which compress the air and then inject diesel fuel into the heated compressed air mixture where it autoignites.
2) OEM specification : NGK Plug part number (Audi S3 2.0TFSi 2007>)
Recommended NGK plug (as supplied to VAG Group): PFR7S8EG
PDF Document Press Release 2010: LINK
Under normal operating conditions this plug is perfectly adequate, so if you run with no modifications and want to purchase a plug in the aftermarket arena that best suits the manufacturers original specification this is the one to buy. It has a copper core, and a platinum electrode, and is an exact match for the manufacturers spec.
3) Running modified : NGK Plug part number (Audi S3 2.0TFSi 2007>)
A suggested option NGK plug which you could use if you felt so inclined(! - legals covered):
BKR7EIX (Stage 1) - Same heat setting as OEM
BKR8EIX (Stage 2+) - One stage cooler than OEM plugs, should run better with increased combustion temps and boost levels
R7434-8 - This plug comes in 8 / 9 / 10 heat settings but 8 would probably be the best to run on modified vehicle - THESE PLUGS CANNOT BE GAPPED DUE TO THE CONSTRUCTION AND DESIGN OF THE PLATINUM BAR.
Engines have a particular resonance when they are running, and due to differences in the construction of plugs and the materials that go into them, there is no guarantee that a race plug will be more robust than a road plug, or more attuned to the engine resonance, it is designed to operate at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for extended periods, so unless your car is used this way it may be of limited benefit).
4) Why iridium plugs?
Iridium plugs have a slower wearing tip, and can in some applications take more abuse than it's platinum cousin. Some manufacturers claim that due to conductivity of material and strength they will show better wear rates, stronger sparks, and put less strain on the coil packs, but what's important in modified applications is consistency of performance, and durability due to increased intensity of operating parameters.
In some respects the platinum plug is a better plug for day to day use as it's ground is better protected with it's copper core than the BKR plug, but for outright strength and durability the BKR plug is likely to be the overall best choice.
5) Why go a stage cooler?
When modified turbocharged cars run more boost, the temperatures within the piston chamber will increase significantly. This puts far greater exposure onto the plug, and very often by running either a cooler plug, or changing the plug gap (trial and error), it is likely you will be able to achieve better consistent performance where less pre-ignition occurs.
A cooler plug is visually identifiable from a warmer plug as the insulator is thicker (see below '6' heat plug on the right, '8' plug on the left).
It is generally accepted that a cooler plug is likely to cause less damage than a hotter plug. A cooler plug will just foul up, whereas the hotter plugs can cause catastrophic engine failure if they are to over heat. Which would you prefer, a failure due due a foulled plug or a rebuild?!
Obviously the aim is to get the best performing plug, so if you do a lot of track work then an 8 is likely to be the safer bet, whereas if you tend to use your S2+ car as a shopping car / school bus for local journeys in the main then 7's may be adequate.
As engines become more advanced and have leaner burn cycles the plugs seem to be getting colder and colder, and so I'm told some Fiats are now running '9' plugs (I'd imagine the new Multi Air technology LINK engines which give upto 20% more power for the same CC)
6) Plug gapping
Plug gapping can be a mechanism to fine tune the running of a car with turbo modifications. As the plug tips are generally precious metals and very delicate it is strongly recommended that GREAT CARE is taken when gapping plugs. If you are unsure of what you are doing, get someone qualified to do it for you (dropping a ground electrode into your chamber is never going to be a good idea, and if you damage the tip when you gap it the plug is basically a write off anyway). Only consumer plugs can be gapped, and the general convention of gapping might see a tuned car dropping from 0.8mm to 0.6mm, or an NA to forced induction conversion going from 1.1m to 0.9mm.
OEM Audi recommended gap for stock spec plugs in OEM engine set up: 0.8mm
7) My plugs have a red tinge to them, should I be concerned?
NGK have noted that more recently the insulators on plugs have a more reddish tinge to them than they have in the past. The thinking behind this to date is that as this cleans off, it is likely to be down to additives within the fuels supplied to forecourts and is not a cause for concern.
8) So to summarise
If you choose to stray from the OEM manufacturer recommendation as part of an upgrade or modification path, always engage with a qualified tuning agent to ensure you get the best advice or support. It appears there are a range of options available to us, but as none of these plugs have been put through up to 4 years back to back intensive testing, none of the alternative recommendations can be guaranteed to offer a defined improvement in running or reliability and it is very much a case of suck it and see. Lets all hope the advent of corona plugs is not too far away!!!
9) And finally...
A huge thank you goes out to NGK/NTK UK for coming back to me so quickly with such useful insight which at least means we have a clear list of possible part numbers to test out (at our own risk!), the definitive OEM part number, the recommended gap, and some very useful pointers are food for thought. Top mark guys, great customer service.
Warren great post, just Audi do not fit those plugs as OEM any more, those were the plugs they used to fit that they say they were having issues with. They now fit Bosch 06H 905611 0 241 245 670, which I might add are the ones that failed after 3k ish miles.
As I have all ready posted I have just had mine again replaced with the same Bosch ones. Though my OEM NGK did do 15k before an issue.
Again, interesting. I've always wondered if it comes down to price, availability, or something else (Audi have used Bridgestone SC2's, then Milchelin PS2's, then Conti 3's, and so it moves on). I never know if it's really about product issue or price (NGK state they are still supplying Audi AG with these).
Personally I've always rated NGK above anything else (including Denso), but every car is it's own entity and gets driven by it's owner in a particular way.
Interesting if it is the case that VAG are struggling so badly with components relating to combustion process (injectors / coils / plugs). Asking to much?????
I had a bit of a fall out with outwith my local Audi service tech desk as they were adament plugs last 60,000 miles in any Audi (even RS). I'd never leave my plugs in a car for 60k, even if it was standard! They had car 8 days and couldn't diagnose misfire that turned out to be related to plugs! The joy of Audi ownership!
, poor you, mine was 5 days in the end to replace the plugs, but they told me they were informed by Audi HQ that they have had issues with the plugs that were fitted in my car being oem NGK supplied with vehicle as new, and replaced them with the Bosch. NOW I got to admit that when I just had them replaced yesterday, by my Revo Dealer, he said that that plug I had in my car was a plug that was recommended by Audi as an alternative to the NGK for ages, and in their view was an oem plug for the car anyhow, they had it in stock as well. So I cant say I really believe Audi too much, the dealer only really saying what they were told.
I do have a sneaking feeling that these plugs will fail in a short time.
So do I; infact I'd be very interested to know if these are just a 'service replacement part' (at low cost to increase their margins at service time), or whether they are a bona fide high quality performance plug worthy of being buried in an S3 block! Time will tell all, and thanks for the update.
I changed my plugs to denso iridiums ik22. They did cure my missfire initially but after about 300miles it started playing up again. Surely if my issue was plugs the denso's should have lasted a bit longer than that. My cars running a standard map too. Any other causes for the plugs failing so quickly?? I just don't want to go and buy yet another set of plugs for this to happen again so quick. If this problem doesn't get sorted in the next week my s3 is going back to the garage and they're giving me my money back, which I don't really want. But it has put me off buying another.
Interesting thread guys.......
For the record my 2010 S3 which is manual has the Stage 1 Revo Map and has no misfire issues at all during the 7k its been on. I am also running the stage 1 map with a full Miltek TBE. The car has and has always remained like 310bhp I expect and truly can't say I have ever had any faults in over the 12months its been on - touch wood.
From memory, my settings are:
Boost 7 or 8
Hope this helps.
what Version Rev software?
Thats a lot of boost, 6 is norm on std stg1.
I'm still running 7 on my timing , i will knock it back one tomorrow.
the plugs i had fitted were specially designed for the S3 and released in July this year, (my guess in response to problems with the Bosch OEM plugs).. NGK7S8EG, not cheap at twice Iridium prices but they have cured my problems so money well spent i hope.
Just picked up some new plugs today from Audi (after them ordering them in on Tuesday, cant believe they dint stock plugs!) and they are NGK branded on the plug but in a VAG box with the part number: PFR7S8EG. Asked them about Bosch plug and said they haven't used them in Audi's for years.
Those are the plugs i have just fitted and they are really good, best the car has ever been TBH...as for Bosch...i just took a set out of my 2011 S3 marked BOSCH/VAG so they were using them 4 months ago.
The NGK's are exclusively for the S3 and although expensive, i think they have been developed withthe S3 plug eating in mind..
Well my engine light back on after 135 miles, do not know why, as as far as I am aware the car has not missed a beat, funny how I only notice the engine light when I start the car, and it stays on but it was not on when I turned it off
My car new was Supplied with NGK 06H 905 601 A
It is a joke how Audi are supplying different types of plugs, maybe the Bosch one was a fill gap while NGK sorted out their's
Getting a bit fed up with it tbh, will stick Laptop on it in the morning
Address 01: Engine (CDL) Labels: 06F-907-115-CDL.clb
Part No SW: 8P0 907 115 AP HW: 8P0 907 115 B
Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0010
Revision: 5BH19--- Serial number: AUX7Z0J1FNI0GF
Shop #: WSC 79668 412 460454
1 Fault Found:
008584 - Bank 1; System too Rich at Idle
P2188 - 008 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
Fault Status: 11101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 40390 km
Time Indication: 0
RPM: 830 /min
Load: 24.7 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.843 V
Readiness: 0000 0001
After 158 miles or so on new plugs.
I might try these as my REVO stage 2 is misfiring quite badly again
Are they only available from Audi and how much are they?
OPIE Oils are doing a set of 4 for about £39 (when you register and sign up).
I checked out this morning that Audi do list 2 types of plugs for the S3, (My S3) both Bosch, and NGK, the part number for the NGK is the same, seems they had fitted that plug for a while, (My car was supplied with those plugs) not sure if the plug are now the same or NGK have modified them, with the same Number.
The Bosch number was what I have in my car that so far my 2nd set has bought the engine light on.
Apparently Revo seem to recommend:-
BKR8EIX (Stage 2+) - One stage cooler than OEM plugs, should run better with increased combustion temps and boost levels
For my car even though it is Stage one. I am having these fitted this afternoon.
I am not sure which plugs I had fitted by AmD after I went stage2 and had misfires, but I remeber them saying they were a stage cooler.
Has anyone gone from S3 OEM plugs PFR7S8EG to BKR8EIX (Stage 2 Plugs NGK) , or vice versa, I just wondered if there was difference in fuel comsumption? did the stage 2 plugs use more fuel in general?
funny you should say that Brett I have just gone from Bosch OEM plugs to the PFR plugs and i would say i am doing a couple of MPG less but then the performance is so improved maybe i am using the loud peddle more....did a usual slow trip today Dorking to Worthing down the A24 60 miles and ave 31mpg, normally that would be 35mpg on a 60mph cruise.
I am thinking so far my fuel is 15% down did 120 mile round trip, and on the way got like 28mpg, and on way back 30, but tbh on the way back i was just podding along most of the way cos of traffic so would have expected 34 to 35, it seems to drink it though when knocking along a bit compared to before, will give it a few more miles for the jury to make its mind up, but so far not impressed, the low revs just do not seem quite as smooth as on oem plugs, If after a few more miles on journies i know what mpg and how i drive what to expect if it is down 15% they are coming out and the oem ngk going back, if they fail with in a too shorter time, revo coming off, unless someone can prove to me that something is gonna change with the coding. I dont mind a car drinking fuel, but one of the reasons I mapped the car was for better fuel consumption when just driving normally.
Fitted my HPFP internals yesterday and whipped out the plugs while I was there. Mine had the NGK ones is, exactly the same as I have just bought. I put the new ones in (old ones been in for 6k) just as I had them, but the old ones looked spot on really.
The car feels ever better now with the HPFP, pulls like a good un!
How do you know when it's miss firing? In 2nd gear mine boosts fully then at about 4000rpm comes off abit and then full boost again at 5000rpm..... Mines got Revo stage 1, only done 1000miles ago in January haven't noticed it until today, didn't do it when the remap was done though. What could cause this?
Ooooopppssss.... Forgot to mention those.
Serviced at Audi about 1200miles ago, beggining of January, Full service, and MOT'd.
Tesco 99ron always!
Cambelt and coil packs changed beggining of december by audi.
I do about 500miles a month roughly, got a company car through the week.
Remap was done at the end of January, so everything was in fully working order.
I bought the uprated version of the diverter valve and fitted about 1month ago to cope with the remap.
Might be worth changing your plugs if they haven't been done recently.
One thing I noticed is if I run the Revo settings are really aggressive when the plugs wear you can feel a deterioration in performance on the limit.
I take it the dealer who set it up didn't tell you where they'd set it at? (Boost / Timing / Fuelling).
An SPS switch is such a useful tool not only for tweaks to the car as you change modifications, but the plus model also offers full throttle body disablement as an anti theft tool. May be worth investing if you see one come up second hand.
I got the sps switch, i did the Christmas deal they had on at the time. I just can't remember what the actual numbers are for timing and so on. The switch is at home with the little book thing you get with it. They wrote the stuff down in there. Didn't know there was a plus model but i've also got the anti theft one, so must mean i have the plus model.
Any recommendation on plugs? How easy are they to change yourself?
Post 94 in this thread : http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/new-a3...ving-revo-taken-off-today-10.html#post1394492
Hardest part is getting the engine cover off, but make sure you do the plugs up to recommended torque settings (don't overtighten or undertighten as both have different but negative effects!)