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Having Revo taken off today

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by ramos333, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. Silky-S3

    Silky-S3 Is loving his new 8V S3!

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    For the record my 2010 S3 which has with V10 of the Stage 1 Map has no misfire issues at all during the 7k its been on. I did have misfire with V9 though. No misfire with OEM.
     
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  3. poverty

    poverty Active Member

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    I will reply properly later but you cannot compare modern TFSI engines to that of older engines. Your plugs themselves might look sooted, but is the actual teeny weeny plug tip actually sooted? It probably wont be.

    Like I said, whether its a 400bhp evo, 360bhp s3 or a 400hp TTRS, plugs will need changing more engine. On tuned evo its recommended every 3k miles for example on iridiums.

    MTM may quote 310bhp but quoted figures at stage 1 at most times doesnt mean much. MTM it, run against a revo car, and see what happens.
     
  4. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Went down the coast today, 40miles each way, at one point tried to overtake a boxster doing 60mph.....put my foot down and slowed down the misfire was so bad. Had to drop back in behind it. If i can keep it above 3k it runs fine so the answer is to go everywhere in Sport mode. ( DSG). Absolutely gutted. Off to Norfolk on Monday and i will have to hire a car. the garage that fitted the revo took it out and of coarse it was good as gold so they are not really interested..The Audi dealership will find its mapped and i will lose the Warranty if i take it in...3900 miles and already its more unreliable than my old 60k miles 3.2.
    The garage that sold it to me also sell landrover. I dont want another audi thats for sure and they are the only people who are going to give me a decent part exchange .. Any one here owned a Freelander ??

    Poverty.....this is not a tuned EVO....its a very mildly set up S3. really just fine tuned to run on 99 octane with a small advance on the ignition and a slight boost increase. I would be amazed if its actually putting out more than 295 bhp so thats barely 12% increase....When i had my 3.2 on the rollers we found that just switching from 95 to 99 ron fuel was worth 10% on the NA V6.
    Plug life is diabolical. I was getting 15k miles from plugs in my tuned R1 bike putting out 160bhp from 1000cc and reving to 12k rpm !!
     
    #43 paddy, Oct 15, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  5. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    Poverty first set of plugs on my stage one oem plugs did over 15k miles, maybe more, 18k, my issues is Audi have changed the plugs for a different type and now my misfire is back and worse, after 2 or 3 k
     
  6. Cheese

    Cheese Member

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    You issue sounds a lot worse than mine Paddy and it is coming in at lower down the revs. I am not sure that we are faced with the same problem. I took a 40-odd mile drive (and maybe because it was cold outside this morning) the car was fine, great in fact. Sounds like you are hitting trouble when the turbo is under a lot of load spinning up. Have you tried to adjust the boost on your SPS - do you then still get the same symptoms?
     
  7. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Ok chaps. this is my thinking on the misfire. I had a play around this morning with my SPS switch.
    The standard settings that are fixed seem to be..
    Boost 6
    Timing 2
    Fuel/air ratio 9

    This when compared to the key equates too..
    BOOST
    Range 0 Valet Mode
    Range 1 Stock Boost
    Range 6 Performance Boost
    Range 9 Aggressive Boost
    TIMING
    Range 0-3 91(US)/95(Euro) Octane Fuel
    Range 4-6 93(US)/98(Euro) Octane Fuel
    Range 7-9 Unleaded Race Fuel over 100 Octane
    FUEL
    Range 0 Stock Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR)
    Range 9 Performance Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR)

    so basically this boost=performance /setting 6
    Timing retarded for 95ron/setting 2
    And Performance fuel air ratio. 9

    To me this seems wrong given that audi recommend 98+ ron and most of us run better than that with Shell V power.
    Therefore my thinking is the timing is retarded to allow for poor fuel in the default performance mode. this would cause poor fuel burn possibly leading to sooty plugs and tail pipes and the possible misfire as the turbo spools up and fuel is not ignited at the optimum part of the stroke.
    Anyway i reset mine to timing 7 which advances the ignition to cope with 99ron fuel by my calculation and there is a definite improvement in throttle response and although i only did 20 miles it didn't miss a beat even though i was trying to make it fault by booting it at low revs in the wrong gear.
    Because the only way to approach these things is one step at a lime i have not looked at the plugs yet but first impressions of altering the settings are promising.

    I am now running on optional setting A with
    Boost 6
    Timing 7
    Fuel/air 8

    Could it be something as simple as this ? could the stock ignition settings be a tad retarded ? causing the plugs to run too cold and soot up ?
    The problem is i dont know what setting 1-9 equates too, it could be 5 degree's it could be 15 degrees on timing and for that reason i wouldnt recommend people play about to much with these setting.
    It would be very interesting for someone else with a problem to get the stock timing setting turned up from 2 to 7 and see what effect it has on there problem.
     
  8. GNJ_Motorsport

    GNJ_Motorsport Site Sponsor
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    Good to see you are getting somewhere with it. I have a bit of a misfire issue on my 2007 stage 2 REVO tuned S3 as well but I am putting that down to the fact it was running the cooler plugs on standard for a while. It had quite a few misfires then and I reckon that has sooted up the plugs. Gonna fit some new ones next week.
     
  9. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Interesting that the tweaks can remedy the running issues, I tend to run boost 6-7 in summer and 8 in spring / autumn when heat soak causes less impact. Timing 6 as I assume some RON degradation as it decreases with storage time. Fuelling 9.

    Funnily enough, at stage 1 my car was struggling with timing, and I can't remember how much adjustment was being applied by the car knock wise.

    It's almost like the fine tune process requires VCDS logging for an optimised summer / winter setting.

    Other problem with maps is the car has to go through adaptation, so when new code or settings are dialled in the car needs to do a few miles to accommodate it. I sincerely hope this provides a temporary solution for now Paddy as after the V6 issues this is a real kick in the teeth. I will get mine set temporarily to stage 1 and run it for a while to see if mine has any issues before going 2+.

    Could any cars having issues post an entry with date of manufacture, SPS settings and mods so we can see if there are any common themes. Thanks in advance.
     
  10. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral
    Team Ibis Audi S3

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    Paddy...for what it's worth,i'd be wary of running it so close to the timing limits for 99Ron fuel,as the limits given are....

    Range 7-9 Unleaded Race Fuel over 100 Octane

    And you're running timing 7 which is aimed at a higher octane rating than you're running.

    At best it means the ECU may pull back a bit if it detects any pre-ignition,and at worst you may find yourself running higher than safe EGT's.

    I'm sure you also know the Octane to RON conversion.
     
    #49 S3Alex, Oct 16, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  11. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Cheers Alex
    My thinking is that UK V power is 99 octane....in Germany its 100 and in Ireland its just 95. given that timing range 6 is for 98 i went for 7 as i would rather be marginaily advanced than retarded given the plug sooting problems. I think the best thing to do will be to leave it on 7 for a while ( couple of days) and see if it cures the problem or by what degree it improves things and then turn it back to 6 if all is well and see how it goes then. got to be better than the stock position of 2.
     
  12. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral
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    Good luck.

    The real problem is that on this engine,there are many causes of misfires,and isolating it can be a real pain.

    In my case it was down to retaining the stock intake for a stage too far,and was cured instantly by fitting first a Forge CAI,then an ITG.
     
  13. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    What is actually more important is the actual amount of advance. I dont know if i can get that from VCDS but an advance curve on paper would help me a lot. the figures we set on SPS are meaning less unless we know the real increments for example if i want to dial in another 5 degrees of advance over stock is that 1 or 9 or anywhere in between ?
    My experience is with motorcycle engines where i can strobe the advance curb and actually alter the curve to suit. not to mention running glass plugs so i can see the burn colour :)
    I will check plug colour and fit some colder plugs i think in a week if all continues well.
    what i really want is someone else with a misfire problem and SPS to set their advance to 6 or 7 and see if it is more than just luck.
     
  14. GNJ_Motorsport

    GNJ_Motorsport Site Sponsor
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    The settings I have on my SPS are boost 8, timing 5, fuelling 6. That is stage 2 and it runs fine now. I went out in it today and what I thought were flatspots/misfires were mostly the traction control I think. I have kept it on all the time as I get used to the car and today turned it off for a while and, well its a different car with it switched off. It just pulls and pulls.

    The 1 thing that has amazed me is they lack of lag and the way it pulls well over 7krpm. My old Astra VXR stage 2 used to run out of steam at 6krpm.
     
  15. S3 BUH

    S3 BUH Member

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    sounds like you guys are getting to the bottom of the problem, glad to hear if for your sakes and mine as i was planning to take my stock S3 to stage 2+ in one go on a revo map. reading this over the last two days put me off completly as i have already had the plugs changed under warrenty due to a hesitation done a couple of hundred miles on the new plugs and touch wood no hesitations but i hope you get it all sorted as it really does spoil driving these sort of cars with issues.
     
  16. ramos333

    ramos333 Member

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    Guys just to update you. I've had the Revo map off since Friday and since then the car has run as smooth as a babies bum!
     
  17. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral
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    Hi...it's a pity that you've had remap related problems,which seems confirmed as you've now reverted to stock,but I can say that in diagnosing the misfire on mine(related to airflow,and not the map)both Revo and AMD were extremely helpful,and went to a lot of effort and time to get to the bottom of the problem.
    I can understand your frustration at going to collect your car and finding it not ready,but on the other hand,seeing that both companies were doing their best to get to the problem is good.
     
  18. ramos333

    ramos333 Member

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    What year is you car Alex? The younger cars seem to be componet issues where as the 2010 / 2011 cars seems software related.

    Condiserding i was decent to AMD from day 1 as in my eyes it was their fault, i felt very fobbed off on Friday, and even gave them the opportunity to keep my money and place the AMD map on my car instead. When i get told after 3 hours and having my car booked in that they haven't got time, that in my opinion is very bad customer service.
     
  19. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    I can imagine how you must be feeling, and if you get it remapped elsewhere will be intrigued to see what happens.

    I have to say that after your troubles AmD turned round with that kind of a response is not what I'd expect, quite a few forum members have had good service levels from AmD.

    A real shame and an unsatisfactory outcome, but at least you have your money back.

    Is AmD your most local tuning house?
     
  20. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral
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    I can only say what I've experienced there and I'd happily recommend them to anyone.

    It doesn't overlook your problems and I'm sure that if you spoke to Shaun,he'd do his best to sort this out.
     
  21. ramos333

    ramos333 Member

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    We have used them before and they have been great, hense the reason for going back, and it was the MD i was dealing with. Being in sales myself and if a client had a query then the i wouldn't deal with them / treat them like I was.

    I'm in Maidstone so where else could I recommend?
     
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  23. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral
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    Well all I can do is say it seems most out of character.

    My car is an 08 by the way
     
  24. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    http://www.qstuning.com/

    H
    aywards heath is not to far Ramos. these guys do the MTM map.

    Mines farting about again today, will try some Iridium's tomorrow as i have them and if that doesn't work it looks like i will have to follow you and get the audi map put back on. Its so frustrating because having had the early version map i know exactly what it feels like when the map is at fault and this new map is doing the same thing. I just know its not plugs or coil packs because is a total ignition cut on all 4 pots, admittedly its only momentary but its enough to throw you forward in the seat and send a clang through the drive train.

    I booked it in to the BMW garage next to my work so they can do the plugs and they are pissing themselves laughing at my 4 month old audi especially given the trouble i had with the last one. :)
     
  25. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Ramos
    When you say you have had the remap off......what do you have on there now ?? ie: do you have the Audi std map reinstalled ??
     
  26. shady-ninja

    shady-ninja Active Member

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    does this mean that REVO IS RUBBISH ??
    I know Awesome used to slag off REVO when they put APR on
    my car but now they slag off APR.
    APR was good on my previous AUQ ENGINE and they do alot more
    tuning stuff.
     
  27. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    Does not mean Revo are Rubbish, so far no one has actually got to the bottom of the major misfire problem, though Revo had certainly had issues with the software for the Late s3's, I contacted them 15 months ago regarding my slight hesitation, and took them a yr to bring out a patch to solve it, I not sure yet if it has solved my problem till I solve the major misfire.

    One thing I am pretty sure about is that once you install revo software even in the switched off stock mode it still has some effect on the stock settings. I think this is the problem, and why it has taken so long to find out what our problems are.
     
  28. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator
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    I don't think any of them are rubbish, they're just flavours you either like or you don't. The problem is that sales people often find it easier to deride or rubbish another product when they should be focussed on selling the benefits of their own brand.

    There are issues with the 1.4TSi engines throwing engine lights after being mapped, the TDi 170 engine with DPF had issues after mapping (and without a map for some), so it seems the parameters for mapping are getting tighter and tighter.

    Revo's customers place a heavy focus on the most aggressive power which can potentially ask more of the car and it's components. If Revo fail to deliver the dynamite map, the customer base tend to get upset about it. Problem is if your car is less than 100% the likelihood is it can at exploit any weak points.

    At the end of the day we are pushing our cars beyond the manufacturers recommended outputs. To be fair it wasn't that long ago VW thought 150bhp was adequate from a 1.8T, and now we are all after at least double that, so nothing will always be 100%. That said, it should do what it says on the tin as a minimum.
     
  29. lil_coz

    lil_coz Active Member

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    This has been a very interesting thread for me.

    I'm looking to have my car remapped and I've got to say, the urge to completely write off Revo straight away was there, but I thought I'd do a bit of homework first.

    First of all, I'm looking to have my car remapped by Audi, because then I'm completely care free when it comes to warranty. I did this with my old car and it was done at the dealer itself. This time I got told to go to the remapper themselves. In this case, Richter Sport. They use ABT maps. With that, I then asked him if I can go to any of the remap companies and he said yes, but he can only recommend Richer Sport because they are 'Audi Approved' tuners. So ABT are Audi approved so you will be covered under warranty if you use them. After I chatted to him a bit more, it turns out that ABT are having problems mapping DSG S3's (which mine is). Apparently they cant get it solved yet and have gone as far as taking the remap off some S3's and put them back to stock because they just cant solve the problem yet. So for me, ABT are out.

    Then I got on the phone to Statller. I got told pretty much the same thing by them. They said that Audi have encripted their ECU's and it's not as straight forward as plugging in a machine to map the car. They have to physically take out the ECU and do it the hard way. They also said that a GIAC map won't suit the S3 at all because they just haven't cracked it for the new ones. But they have had problems with hesitation also with other maps they use. I also got told that with the s-tronic, you wont get you're moneys worth because the gearbox limits the power of the engine so you wont see the full capabilities of the map. Baring in mind too that if they have to take the ECU out, that's an extra cost on top of the remap cost itself.

    So next in line was Backdraft (Revo), and I got the impression that the guy on the other end either didnt know what he was talking about, or he wasn't being open about problems that they've had. Lost of hesitations over the phone when I was asking him loads of questions about the gearbox limiting power/hesitation problems. Quite apart from the fact the newest S3 he had mapped was a 2010 model. So I'll probably ring their HQ and see what they say.

    Then I got on the phone with Qs Tuning, they said that they don't have to take the ECU out, and that they can get by the encriptions, and that they've not had a problem with any of their maps on the S3. Also no problems with gearbox allowing you to use the full power and a quoted figure of 310bhp. I know that they are more expensive at £699 + vat, but when you take into account that the others want more for taking the ECU out + any potential problems, I think it makes them worth considering. Also MTM is used by some Audi dealers, so the possibility with full warranty is there. I just need to check and make sure with my dealer that they'll accept them, even though they don't use them themselves.

    So now I'm still waiting to hear back from AMD and I'll be giving them the 3rd degree as well. I think my 2 options as things stand at the mo are MTM or AMD (depending on what they say). We'll see...
     
  30. andywaddy

    andywaddy Member

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    Have you not thought about a Shark Peformance remap? I haven't heard a single derogatory thing about them. That's who I'm planning on getting mine mapped with when the S3 arrives.
     
  31. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    Interesting post above, ^^^, and certainly I am afriad been mis led a little.

    No Audi dealer carry out tuning under Audi GB., I have heard of a Audi garage being a tuning specialist, but separate to the Audi part. or do they recommend anyone, and if Audi HQ find out the warranty would almost be void on their discretion, Dealer level is purely on the dealers discretion UN-officially of course. My Opinion is take it for granted that AUDI GB have a 100% case to refuse warranty work if they know that a car has been remapped.

    My Latest update, I have had the plugs replaced today, and that has solved the misfire. The V10 Revo software upgrade I am almost 99.9% sure it has solved the slight hesitation i have had ever since Revo was put on to my car. I feel so far that V10 is not as aggressive as 9, but it is early days and need the ECU to settle down. I will wait for say 500 miles and then switch off the software via the switch and see how it drives with software stock mode.

    NOW this is the worrying part, and it is my opinion so far based my own evidence, reading other peoples opinions, I am not 100% sure my very slight hesitation that I reported on here as soon as the Revo software was installed was on the car before the install, but one thing I do know for sure is that in stock mode after the software was installed the hesitation was still there just a lot more subtle, but it was there. a few people who drove my car agreed it was there, though most cases they admitted unless I told them and showed them they would not notice it. Now, If I return my car to stock that hesitation should return as Revo maintain that the initial hesitation is a problem with the car, and I had to agree at the time, on information that stock meant that no revo mods were effecting the ECU, I now in my view disagree, I am pretty certain that this hesitation was caused by Revo, and it also caused the hesitation in stock mode as well.

    Thoughts please.

    Lets see how long these plugs last?
     
  32. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    Just another note, If I was to Choose any remaping on my S3 now, I would have gone to MTM, it is in my view the closest worked with Audi tuning I think, it may cost a lot more, but it would have been a bargain for me compared to the costs I have paid out with Revo related problems. also DO not take it for granted that is what you would pay £699-00 + VAT :)
     
  33. lil_coz

    lil_coz Active Member

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    Not considered them tbh. Bit far from me, but I'll give them a call and see what they say.

    I made sure I was still covered under warranty on my previous car. I had it down in writing that no matter what the problem was, I'd still be covered under warranty. I'm going to try to get a smiliar thing again. I've bought this car from a different dealer. Going to do a bit of homework first and then go back to them and see what they say.

    It's interesting you say that it's not as agressive with the update because when I was speaking with MTM yesterday, they were aware of Revo's problems and he said that they were trying to boost them too much which brought up the problems? No idea. But I've just come off the phone with Revo HQ and he told me that Audi have NOT encripted their ECU and that the gearbox will NOT hold back the power of the map. Same thing that MTM told me, and contrary to what Statller told me.

    On the problems that they had, he explained it as a firmware issue that clashed and claims that it's all solved now. Apparently about the spark plugs, Audi had a batch that weren't up to the job and they were changing them a lot under warranty and says that as mine is new, it shouldn't be affected.

    Thats the way I see it tbh.
     
  34. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    The spark plugs are still an issue, my last set was the replaced by Audi 2 or 3 k miles ago, according to them the upgraded new type, they lasted 2/3k and I have just replaced them again today, (maybe Revo version 9 gave them a short life) with the same type, so this is the crunch time, I spoke to my Audi dealer today and asked have they had any come back from the new spark plug upgrades he said no, and they have done a few cars, so ? is why did mine only last 2/3k?

    Time gonna tell.
     
  35. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    lil coz
    Audi will not warranty your engine with a remap. The confusion come because if you use a ABT map it cost you £2000 for a stg1 so you are in effect buying a warranty on the engine with the map....but its not an audi warranty, their stg2 will cost you £6k. Nuff said.

    Put new plugs in to day...or BMW did .lol
    I gave them a set of BKR7EIX to fit and they rang me up mid morning to say they wouldnt fit them. Apparently they are listed for the Porker 911 GT3 exclusively. They contacted NGK on my behalf and NGK said absolutely deffo do not run them on a S3 even stg1 mapped...They sent over another set and boy does my engine run smooth now !! stupidly i didnt ask what they fitted but i will tomorrow. To soon to tell about the engine stutter but the misfire is cured. it was better coming home tonight but thats only 8 miles.
    Tomorrow i will put a mega tester on the old audi plugs and check their resistance break down at 500v and see if i can fault them. They look perfect, colour and condition so it will be interesting to see what goes wrong with them.
    Brett did audi tell you what the plug problem is ?? I mean there isnt that much to go wrong with a plug !!
     
    #73 paddy, Oct 18, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
  36. Brett Butler

    Brett Butler Member

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    Paddy they said bad batch at first, I personally don't believe that you would change the type of plug if it was fine before the batch just replace the old with new of the same type from a new batch. They have used many words like upgraded etc. but not why, except misfires, apparently on brand new cars at the dock as well.

    I am amused at one thing though, I had the fault codes reset, and V10 uploaded, tested car but Misfire was still really bad, so I actually drove about 40/50 miles with the misfire, and I am talking misfiring on more than one cylinder, so bad you had to back off, with it starting to mess about at around 3k revs, and never did log a fault again in those 50 ish miles, and this misfire was really bad.

    My plugs did not look perfect, were quite dark especially 2 of them. I got to admit these days in cars there is a hell of a lot more power going through a plug than years ago.
     
  37. ramos333

    ramos333 Member

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    Guys,


    Update which will answer a few questions. Went to see QST Kim Collins today and I must say what a really nice knowledgeable bloke!! Not a bad word to say and would 100% recommend. When you pull up to an Audi tuning company and the owner has a mapped RS3 gives you confidence straight away. I had the MTM map put on today which is now showing 322bhp, so all the people who said a lot of money for not much power gains are wrong, and the map itself is a very nice power and very smooth. And guess what no hesitations!!!! Same NGK pplugs, same coil packs, so the issues IS the revo map.

    From what I can read I'm the first to try a new map to fix the problems and it has!!

    For all those who are considering getting a map or changing your map QST with the MTM map should be your number one choice.

    Ramos
     
  38. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Funnily enough I switched from MTM to Revo when it was £1000. I ran MTM for a month and it just didn't float my boat. No way on this earth mine was anything over 300bhp from driving it. What other mods do you have for 322bhp?
     
  39. paddy

    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Personally i dont think the figures matter, its more a case of if you are happy then who cares if its 320bhp or 620bhp. :)
     
    ramos333 likes this.
  40. warren_S5

    warren_S5 Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    I do agree to a point, I just wonder how they come up with some of the figures. When my wife got in the car after I had the MTM map she actually asked me whether id had it done as she said it didn't feel any different. Yes the car hadn't done huge mileage, but against the cost it just didn't deliver. By the sounds of it the code has evolved from where it was which is great news.
     
  41. ramos333

    ramos333 Member

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    Only a pipercross panel filter. I was getting 323 with Revo with the same small mod. The power is not as 'harsh' when it comes in as Revo but much smoother pull right through.

    Having had the two 'taking out the issues' Revo is with a punch early on but fades at the back end but the MTM comes in nice and smooth and pulls right through.

    At least we can say the hesitation issues are with the Revo software and people are now aware
     
  42. Rob W8

    Rob W8 Member

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    Glad it's all sorted for you.
     
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