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Happy days

Discussion in 'Home Cinema, Hi-Fi and Gadgets' started by necroeire, Sep 22, 2005.

  1. necroeire
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    necroeire Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2005]
    Just bought a 27" Philips LCD and they delivered a 32" Philips LCD.

    Don't know if it was a mistake or not as I also bought all the kitchen **** (fridge, cooker, dishwasher, washer, dryer) with the mrs, costing over 4K.

    Oh happy days.....
    #1
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  3. dickys3
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    dickys3 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 22, 2005]
    Result! Hope they don't realise!
    #2
  4. CJ A4
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    CJ A4 Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2005]
    Nice one mate!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/woohoo.gif
    #3
  5. necroeire
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    necroeire Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2005]
    So far, GTA SA and GT4 look superb on it. Should be moving into the new house soon so I will hook it up to my surround system for that true cinema style.

    I also stole a dell projector from work and its brilliant. Really bright but very noisy.

    I'll probably have to return it soon as I'm sure they'll know it was me (only techno boff here)
    #4
  6. TDI-line
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    TDI-line Uber Post Whore

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    [Sep 23, 2005]
    I love it when a plan comes together. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yes.gif
    #5
  7. johnyj
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    johnyj Member

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    [Sep 23, 2005]
    my sis bought a 21" lcd cancelled the order for a different one they both turned up only charged for one.
    she later bought kitchen stuff cancelled the order but it turned up f.o.c.
    this was about 6mnths ago and still no bill chasing.
    #6
  8. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 25, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    my sis bought a 21" lcd cancelled the order for a different one they both turned up only charged for one.
    she later bought kitchen stuff cancelled the order but it turned up f.o.c.
    this was about 6mnths ago and still no bill chasing.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There's nothing to congratulate oneself on in not telling retailers they've made an error. It's just dishonest.
    #7
  9. johnyj
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    johnyj Member

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    [Sep 25, 2005]
    so if currys sent u a 42" lcd by mistake when u cancelled the order i.e. there mistake u would ring them up to come and get it....
    anyone else how would please let me know ass im very interested.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
    #8
  10. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    [Sep 25, 2005]
    i'd ring up, as i'd be constantly paranoid that a bill would be dropping through the door anytime soon..
    #9
  11. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 25, 2005]
    i wouldn't, cos having worked for currys they their delivery drivers are thick, even if they did find out its not like they are going to just drop u a bill, they will contact u and say 'we delivered it by mistake, can we get it back', all u gotta say to justify urself is 'oh my sister didn't tell me she had cancelled the order so i signed for it' but for sure if anything like that happened i wouldn't be phoning them to tell them, id keep it straight. end of the day these are multi million pound companies who can afford a few losses like that, people are gonna say thats not the point but it is. if it was a small private shop for example, where the loss would be like equivelent to a months profit for them, i would ring them straight away and let them know and tell them to take it back.
    #10
  12. TDI-line
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    TDI-line Uber Post Whore

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    A similiar thing happened with me and John Lewis a few years back. We ordered quite alot of matching furniture which arrived at different times due to low stock. There was this sideboard unit which was delivered no problems. The following week, i had a phone call saying Mr TDI we are outside your house with your new sideboard, being put on the spot i expained that they had delivered this the week before. Shame i didn't have my wits about me, as this would have looked nice in the dining room too.
    #11
  13. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    so if currys sent u a 42" lcd by mistake when u cancelled the order i.e. there mistake u would ring them up to come and get it....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, of course I would. You do know the meaning of the word "dishonest", don't you?
    #12
  14. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    people are gonna say thats not the point but it is.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not it's not. If you have not paid for the goods, they do not belong to you, they belong to the retailer. If you do not inform them of the error, that is an indication of the intention permanently to deprive the true owner of the goods. That is theft.
    #13
  15. [Sep 26, 2005]
    I have to agree with jdp on this one chaps, quite strongly.

    And have done it too, with an incorrectly delivered iMac about 2 years ago, had ordered several items and this was in with it, not reflected on the paperwork, would have been no problem to get away with.. but regardless of whether they can 'afford' it, somebody has to account for it..

    Their packing staff may have been less than competent, but when these things are audited (and they are), and an expensive item is unaccounted for.. the packing staff could well be accused (or suspected)of the theft - which is NOT fair - failing on the job, needing more training perhaps, but thats a world apart from suspicion of theft.

    Ive also had it the other way - we sell a few limited edition fine art Marine prints, not many as theyre quite expensive but my wife accidentally packed two copies of one in one tube that was sent out - the lady concerned sent it back with an apologetic note! we sent her some flowers and a big thank you, yes she would have been better off keeping it, and we wouldnt have known, but I wld have been £120 down and unaccounted for, so I was chuffed to bits with her honesty.. with 4 teenagers and one income, £120 is not something I want to 'write off'!

    Its the old 'do as you would be done by' bit I suppose.
    #14
  16. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    people are gonna say thats not the point but it is.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not it's not. If you have not paid for the goods, they do not belong to you, they belong to the retailer. If you do not inform them of the error, that is an indication of the intention permanently to deprive the true owner of the goods. That is theft.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So necrofire had intentions of theft? of course not. in my opinion its just taking advantage of a cock up by the retailer. doesn't make us theives. i have worked in a shop many a time when an old lady has given me more money then she should have, i could easily have taken it. i went to an old chaps house the other day to collect money and he had so many valuables lying around, and money, i could have taken it no-one would have known, but i didn't, cos i'm not a theif, however when it comes to multi-million pound companies, when i know for a fact i'm not hurting anyone, and i also know for a fact that the loss won't hurt the company either, then i would keep it if the tv was delivered to me accidently.
    #15
  17. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    people are gonna say thats not the point but it is.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not it's not. If you have not paid for the goods, they do not belong to you, they belong to the retailer. If you do not inform them of the error, that is an indication of the intention permanently to deprive the true owner of the goods. That is theft.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So necrofire had intentions of theft? of course not. in my opinion its just taking advantage of a cock up by the retailer. doesn't make us theives. i have worked in a shop many a time when an old lady has given me more money then she should have, i could easily have taken it. i went to an old chaps house the other day to collect money and he had so many valuables lying around, and money, i could have taken it no-one would have known, but i didn't, cos i'm not a theif, however when it comes to multi-million pound companies, when i know for a fact i'm not hurting anyone, and i also know for a fact that the loss won't hurt the company either, then i would keep it if the tv was delivered to me accidently.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If you have not paid for the goods, they are not yours. You have no title to them in law. A person who retain goods delivered in error, to which they have knowingly have no title, is committing theft. You cannot credibly say on the one hand you are not a thief, and then say that if the circumstances suited you, you would become one. The law is not a moveable feast according to the size and financial resources of the victim.
    #16
  18. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    when i know for a fact i'm not hurting anyone, and i also know for a fact that the loss won't hurt the company either, then i would keep it if the tv was delivered to me accidently.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, companies create margins for error and mistakes. These are passed directly on to the consumer in their mark ups.

    The less mistakes they make, the less they have to mark up ALL their products by.

    The only people you're hurting is yourselves and the rest of us.

    Strictly speaking though, it isn't theft as this means to criminally remove something without consent.

    It is however immoral, which is where most people will become outraged at another individuals dishonesty.

    If the truths really told though, it was probably packaged and labelled by a worker on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif hours and /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif pay, who really couldn't give a /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif about the company they work for. Whether the company wins or loses is of no interest to them.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/soap.gif
    #17
  19. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Strictly speaking though, it isn't theft as this means to criminally remove something without consent.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    In common law, theft is generally defined as the unauthorised taking or use of someone else's property with the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use. So, in the situation Pimpeda3 is referring to, where good have been delivered but not paid for, an offence of theft may arise if the recipient makes no attempt to alert the owner of the goods to the mistake.

    Necro's situation is different. Here, goods have been supplied but they have been paid for, so he has title to the goods. He is the owner of the goods, so an offence of theft is unlikely to arise simply because the item supplied is of a slightly higher specification than anticipated.

    Whether it is is or is not theft in Pimpeda3's opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) is frankly neither here or there. I am not expressing a personal opinion here, I am explaining how a principle of the law may apply to certain circumstances.
    #18
  20. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    mate get with it, everyone does it, its not considered theft, whether it really is in the eyes of the law or not, it might possibly be questionable moral wise, but not theft. everyone copies things, downloads films/music, its all the same, ur takin something from the 'rightful owner' without payin for it. as far im concerned the people on the other side always say 'well the cost is always passed on to consumers' i think its rubbish, i think if people stopped pirating the companies still wouldn't reduce the price of cd's, or software, or tv's for that matter, as far as they are concerned if people stopped doing it, it just means more profit from them, non of which would be passed back to the customer by way of price reduction. i mean they can afford to pay robbie williams 80 million, but not bear the brunt of a few lost sales due to copying. and if robbie williams was to loose a few million cos of pirating, so what? who cares, i don't
    #19
  21. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    everyone does it

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That may be so...

    [ QUOTE ]
    its not considered theft

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You're wrong.

    [ QUOTE ]
    everyone copies things, downloads films/music, its all the same, ur takin something from the 'rightful owner' without payin for it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So as everyone does it it's now legal?

    Perhaps you should "get with it" pimp, your conscience may let you pirate software, share music and take something from it's rightfull owner (as many of us do), but please do not fool yourself that it is "legal".

    Kev.
    #20
  22. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    mate get with it,.......(snip),,,, so what? who cares, i don't

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A few posts further up this thread, you were at great pains to say that you were not a thief. Now you seem to be saying that you don't care whether you are or not.

    You may have forgotten, but a few months back you boasted on this forum of how you had persuaded your mother to say that she was driving when you were caught speeding, thus ensuring that you avoided getting additional points on your licence.

    At the time, you presented an assortment of reasons why you felt this was justified in your eyes, but all they amounted to was, you didn't want to get fine, or a possible ban, and the inconvenience of not being able to get around by car. It is unlikely that any of the reasons you gave would constitute a defence against a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The thing is, Pimp, just as the law isn't a moveable feast with regard to the size & financial power of the victim, nor is it a flexible friend that you can either adopt or reject according to what is economically convenient for you.

    You've got a new car, which it's apparent from recent posts you are driving around in. Presumably, it's insured. If it is, then I presume that when you applied for than insurance, you didn't mention to the insurer the speeding offence that your mother put her hands up to. If you had told the insurer the truth, I imagine you'd have to pay more for your cover, or perhaps would have refused insurance altogether.

    If that is the case, then what you did was obtain a pecuniary advantage by deception. This is generally referred to as fraud, which is a form of theft. If you choose not to see it in those terms, I know that I am not going to convince you, whatever I may say. So, if you really believe your position is defensible, why not ask JPO to refer this up on the Police forum that he is signed up on, and get some opinions on there. What do you say?

    But I would say this. A few weeks ago, it was reported in the news that a man who had made a similar boast as you on a forum similar to this one, had been successfully prosecuted after his forum passed information onto the Police.
    #21
  23. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    never said its legal cos everyone does it, no point readin between the lines to form ur judgements. i know its illegal as far as the law is concerned, but there are certain things that people don't consider illegal or breaking the law, even if they are, and pirating is one of them for example. so is throwing litter in the street, so is breaking the speed limit. i never said its legal just cos everyone does it, or that its ok just cos everyone does it, im just sayin people don't think 'wow i just broke the law' or commited a crime, becuase its the norm nowadays.
    #22
  24. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    Not trying to read between the lines pimp or put words in your mouth, I apologise for my assumption.

    However,

    [ QUOTE ]
    everyone does it, its not considered theft, whether it really is in the eyes of the law or not, it might possibly be questionable moral wise, but not theft.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I took issue pimp as your first post seems to imply that it's not theft, and therefore not illegal.

    [ QUOTE ]
    i know its illegal as far as the law is concerned

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So if it is illegal as far as the law is concerned (which you and I agree on) - presummably it is theft?

    Kev.
    #23
  25. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    mate get with it,.......(snip),,,, so what? who cares, i don't

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A few posts further up this thread, you were at great pains to say that you were not a thief. Now you seem to be saying that you don't care whether you are or not.

    You may have forgotten, but a few months back you boasted on this forum of how you had persuaded your mother to say that she was driving when you were caught speeding, thus ensuring that you avoided getting additional points on your licence.

    At the time, you presented an assortment of reasons why you felt this was justified in your eyes, but all they amounted to was, you didn't want to get fine, or a possible ban, and the inconvenience of not being able to get around by car. It is unlikely that any of the reasons you gave would constitute a defence against a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The thing is, Pimp, just as the law isn't a moveable feast with regard to the size & financial power of the victim, nor is it a flexible friend that you can either adopt or reject according to what is economically convenient for you.

    You've got a new car, which it's apparent from recent posts you are driving around in. Presumably, it's insured. If it is, then I presume that when you applied for than insurance, you didn't mention to the insurer the speeding offence that your mother put her hands up to. If you had told the insurer the truth, I imagine you'd have to pay more for your cover, or perhaps would have refused insurance altogether.

    If that is the case, then what you did was obtain a pecuniary advantage by deception. This is generally referred to as fraud, which is a form of theft. If you choose not to see it in those terms, I know that I am not going to convince you, whatever I may say. So, if you really believe your position is defensible, why not ask JPO to refer this up on the Police forum that he is signed up on, and get some opinions on there. What do you say?

    But I would say this. A few weeks ago, it was reported in the news that a man who had made a similar boast as you on a forum similar to this one, had been successfully prosecuted after his forum passed information onto the Police.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    well, after u get off ur high horse, and quit making sly threats, which incidently doesn't bother or scare me in the slightest, then u too can stop reading bewteen the lines and quit playin mother teresa. u have ur facts totally wrong (obviously, cos u need to twist them in order to suit ur argument and points). first of all my mum didn't pay the fine, i paid it, it was just put under her name so the points would not go on my licence. don't make it out to be my poor mum as if i tricked her to do it for my convenence, it made sense cos my mum doesn't drive and never will and she was more then happy to do it as her license wasnt important to her wheras mine is to me. finance and money didn't come into it at all, i just simply didnt want the points under my name, cos it could affect jobs etc.

    and about my new car, hey? again, thats 2 paragraphs u've written on the ASSUMPTION (u said urself 'u presume') that i didnt declare the points on my mums license. who told u this, the tooth fairy? i did actually declare the points on my mums licence, as i have to otherwise my insurance would be invalid. shall i pass u the step ladder now then? think the horse might be tired
    #24
  26. jdp1962
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    jdp1962 Grumpy Old Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    mate get with it,.......(snip),,,, so what? who cares, i don't

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A few posts further up this thread, you were at great pains to say that you were not a thief. Now you seem to be saying that you don't care whether you are or not.

    You may have forgotten, but a few months back you boasted on this forum of how you had persuaded your mother to say that she was driving when you were caught speeding, thus ensuring that you avoided getting additional points on your licence.

    At the time, you presented an assortment of reasons why you felt this was justified in your eyes, but all they amounted to was, you didn't want to get fine, or a possible ban, and the inconvenience of not being able to get around by car. It is unlikely that any of the reasons you gave would constitute a defence against a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The thing is, Pimp, just as the law isn't a moveable feast with regard to the size & financial power of the victim, nor is it a flexible friend that you can either adopt or reject according to what is economically convenient for you.

    You've got a new car, which it's apparent from recent posts you are driving around in. Presumably, it's insured. If it is, then I presume that when you applied for than insurance, you didn't mention to the insurer the speeding offence that your mother put her hands up to. If you had told the insurer the truth, I imagine you'd have to pay more for your cover, or perhaps would have refused insurance altogether.

    If that is the case, then what you did was obtain a pecuniary advantage by deception. This is generally referred to as fraud, which is a form of theft. If you choose not to see it in those terms, I know that I am not going to convince you, whatever I may say. So, if you really believe your position is defensible, why not ask JPO to refer this up on the Police forum that he is signed up on, and get some opinions on there. What do you say?

    But I would say this. A few weeks ago, it was reported in the news that a man who had made a similar boast as you on a forum similar to this one, had been successfully prosecuted after his forum passed information onto the Police.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    well, after u get off ur high horse, and quit making sly threats, which incidently doesn't bother or scare me in the slightest, then u too can stop reading bewteen the lines and quit playin mother teresa. u have ur facts totally wrong (obviously, cos u need to twist them in order to suit ur argument and points). first of all my mum didn't pay the fine, i paid it, it was just put under her name so the points would not go on my licence. don't make it out to be my poor mum as if i tricked her to do it for my convenence, it made sense cos my mum doesn't drive and never will and she was more then happy to do it as her license wasnt important to her wheras mine is to me. finance and money didn't come into it at all, i just simply didnt want the points under my name, cos it could affect jobs etc.

    and about my new car, hey? again, thats 2 paragraphs u've written on the ASSUMPTION (u said urself 'u presume') that i didnt declare the points on my mums license. who told u this, the tooth fairy? i did actually declare the points on my mums licence, as i have to otherwise my insurance would be invalid. shall i pass u the step ladder now then? think the horse might be tired

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So let me get this right, you told the insurance company it was your mother's speeding offence, but not that it was yours, yes?

    I'm not going to add anything. If anyone else wants to it's up to them.
    #25
  27. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    Pimp,

    I'd hate you to think that I'm having ago at you, or anyone else that may pirate etc...

    I just can't see how you seem to think it's not theft.

    Kev.
    #26
  28. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    lol anyway im gonna quit this thread, obviuosly soon as i say something every1 around is ready to jump on me, or hang on a minute, did u guys miss

    DickS3: Result! Hope they don't realise!

    CJ B6 2.0: Nice one mate!!

    TDI-Line: I love it when a plan comes together.

    oh wait thats alright, soon as pimp says it tho......
    #27
  29. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    mate get with it,.......(snip),,,, so what? who cares, i don't

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A few posts further up this thread, you were at great pains to say that you were not a thief. Now you seem to be saying that you don't care whether you are or not.

    You may have forgotten, but a few months back you boasted on this forum of how you had persuaded your mother to say that she was driving when you were caught speeding, thus ensuring that you avoided getting additional points on your licence.

    At the time, you presented an assortment of reasons why you felt this was justified in your eyes, but all they amounted to was, you didn't want to get fine, or a possible ban, and the inconvenience of not being able to get around by car. It is unlikely that any of the reasons you gave would constitute a defence against a charge of conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

    The thing is, Pimp, just as the law isn't a moveable feast with regard to the size & financial power of the victim, nor is it a flexible friend that you can either adopt or reject according to what is economically convenient for you.

    You've got a new car, which it's apparent from recent posts you are driving around in. Presumably, it's insured. If it is, then I presume that when you applied for than insurance, you didn't mention to the insurer the speeding offence that your mother put her hands up to. If you had told the insurer the truth, I imagine you'd have to pay more for your cover, or perhaps would have refused insurance altogether.

    If that is the case, then what you did was obtain a pecuniary advantage by deception. This is generally referred to as fraud, which is a form of theft. If you choose not to see it in those terms, I know that I am not going to convince you, whatever I may say. So, if you really believe your position is defensible, why not ask JPO to refer this up on the Police forum that he is signed up on, and get some opinions on there. What do you say?

    But I would say this. A few weeks ago, it was reported in the news that a man who had made a similar boast as you on a forum similar to this one, had been successfully prosecuted after his forum passed information onto the Police.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    well, after u get off ur high horse, and quit making sly threats, which incidently doesn't bother or scare me in the slightest, then u too can stop reading bewteen the lines and quit playin mother teresa. u have ur facts totally wrong (obviously, cos u need to twist them in order to suit ur argument and points). first of all my mum didn't pay the fine, i paid it, it was just put under her name so the points would not go on my licence. don't make it out to be my poor mum as if i tricked her to do it for my convenence, it made sense cos my mum doesn't drive and never will and she was more then happy to do it as her license wasnt important to her wheras mine is to me. finance and money didn't come into it at all, i just simply didnt want the points under my name, cos it could affect jobs etc.

    and about my new car, hey? again, thats 2 paragraphs u've written on the ASSUMPTION (u said urself 'u presume') that i didnt declare the points on my mums license. who told u this, the tooth fairy? i did actually declare the points on my mums licence, as i have to otherwise my insurance would be invalid. shall i pass u the step ladder now then? think the horse might be tired

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So let me get this right, you told the insurance company it was your mother's speeding offence, but not that it was yours, yes?

    I'm not going to add anything. If anyone else wants to it's up to them.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    lol how sad can u get, grown man tryin to make me confess to something, wot u gonna go to fbi with my addmission which ur blatantly tryin to make? u not got anything better or more interesting to do in ur life? or do u need to GET a life? cos i know they going cheap down sainsburys. for the record, shared internet connection at uni halls, IP address is same for every single computer in the 400 flats, not to mention behind proxy server etc etc. oh wait, they might be able to track me down by my username
    #28
  30. johnyj
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    johnyj Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    jdp i congratulate you and your morals, you will make this planet a better place by sending back your un ordered tv's.
    I think all pimped roughly was trying to say is everyone breaks the law but we dont all run to the police station with a signed confesion.
    im 100% certain you have gone over the speed limit but have not turned yourself in.
    is that not breaking the law?
    #29
  31. pimpeda3
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    pimpeda3 Member

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    ^ lol yea thats basically all i was tryin to say, theres certain laws that we all break that don't do no one any harm, and if they did, i wouldnt break them
    #30
  32. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    Theft? I don't think so. By taking delivery of something you are not claiming legal ownership, they delivered it, it's their cock up, it's their responsibility to realise and arrange to come and collect it. Necro is just looking after it while they sort out their shortfall.
    While I respect everyones morality on this thread, are you seriously telling me that if the cashpoint gave you an extra tenner you'd report it to the bank?
    OK, what if it was £100?
    Where do you draw the line?
    If someone in front of you leaves a tenner in the cash machine and walks away then I'd tell them (as long as they were within whispering distance), but if the bank can't maintain the machine correctly then it is my responsibility to penalise them for cutting corners.
    As for the bull about warehouse staff getting the sack then maybe they deserve it.
    Anyone who has had the unpleasant, ludicrously frustrating experience of dealing with an insurance claim will know that if you are totally honest you get completely shafted, and you have to overclaim in order to get what you are legally entitled to, and to compensate for the utter shyte that you have to go through to get it.
    If a company sends me unsolicited goods in the mail I would phone them immediately and report it otherwise I'm a thief? I've never heard such garbage.
    You couldn't be prosecuted for not reporting it so how can it be illegal?
    If you denied receiving it after they realise then that's different, but if they never realise then tough, sort your backoffice processes out, don't leave it to me to point out your systems shortcomings.
    #31
  33. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 26, 2005]
    You could also argue that by reporting a duplicate delivery you are alerting the company to a cock up in the warehouse and the guy might lose his job either way. Would that be OK?
    #32
  34. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    I think the debate had moved on from Necro's example where he had bought something, but had something else delivered, to having duplicates delivered, to saying that piracey is not theft.

    Your example of the £10 at a cash machine is no different - plenty of us would walk away with the tenner nicely tucked in our wallet, others would immediately hand it back into the bank. That's the only line that needs to be drawn.

    Be it £10 or £100 at that cash point, if you take it, it's theft.

    Kev.
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  35. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    So Kev where do you stand on the original example?
    This is exactly what I tried to illustrate, where is the line.
    If Habitat send you an expensive catalogue in the post (which is normally £2.99) is that OK to keep?
    At what point does it become theft (your definition of theft)?
    If the cashpoint gives to £110 when you asked for £100 but you don't realise until later, I don't know of anyone who would go all the way back to the bank to hand it in. Anyone who says they would, incurring additional hassle & expense, is plain and simply lying to sound oh so high & mightly on this forum.
    I drag you back to my original example that if everyone was to hand the tenner back then there would be no reason for the bank to improve the accuracy of their outdated machines and essentially no progress made on the standard of service they provide. No company will improve something unless it will save them money or provide a good ROI (decrease risk etc), that's just simple economics.
    The definition of theft (for those of you who seem to be struggling with this complex issue) is "the wrongful taking of someone else's property without that person's willful consent."
    If that person has given the item to you that consitutes willful consent in law, so not theft.
    #34
  36. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    Andy,

    If original example means Necro's TV, I'm not sure on the legality of it, but I'd not think twice and I'd keep the TV, he has atleast paid for something, but just got a bonus version in the post. None of my posts were as a result of Necro's post, they relate to the examples and arguments that then followed.

    It soon went on from getting an "upgrade" to being sent items purely by mistake or duplicates and then latterly onto how copying music or downloading programs form the internet is generally done and therefore must be ok.

    If you refer to the original example being your cash point scenario, again, if it spewed out £110 instead of the £100 you asked for I think most would put it in there pocket - but does that mean to say it's ok? that it's legal?

    Legality aside, I've no case law on the cash machine example, although I'm sure some must exist, but consider it this way, taking something which is not rightlyfull yours is wrong, yes?

    As for where I personally stand on either example I must say in depends, I'm not whiter than white and each case would have to be taken on the risk I perceived.

    I've not stated once that I'd of sent the TV back, sent duplicate items back, or hand the tenner back into the bank. The only reason I jumped in and posted on this debate is I cannot agree with the Pimp on this one about what is or isn't illegal, when in my view Piracy clearly is!

    Kev.
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  37. CJ A4
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    CJ A4 Active Member

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    If you get something for free i put it down to good fortune and think nothing more about it......if its men't to be it's men't to be and if it's not then no worries!
    #36
  38. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    "taking something which is not rightfully yours is wrong, yes?"
    Yes, but we're talking about being given something by the owner, not taking it without their consent.
    They have sent it to us (the reason is irrelevant), the cash machine has given us the money, are we supposed to just leave it and walk away.
    No one will thank you for returning it.
    The licencing issue is completely different as that is proactively taking something, just like shoplifting but depersonalised. With iTunes there is no need to pirate music, but don't forget if it wasn't for napster and kazaa we might not have iTunes. So that perfectly illustrates my point, it took a shed load of dubious activity to get on the directors radar so that the music bosses eventually got off their fat arses and did something about it.
    The world is unfair, life is unfair, you get shafted everywhere you go, by everyone you deal with so when the odd bonus falls in your lap you take it. Or rather you don't "take it", you just don't return it.
    It's real life karma.
    #37
  39. CJ A4
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    CJ A4 Active Member

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    Exactly AndyMac...well put /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ok.gif
    #38
  40. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    The donor tenner issue I still think is a grey area without any case law to point otherwise - I think we'll have to agree to leave that one here.

    On the licencing issue, I think we're both saying the same thing.

    Kev.
    #39
  41. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 27, 2005]
    There's no grey area as far as the law is concerned.
    There's no case law on the cashpoint scenario because:
    1. no bank would admit to it,
    2. no individual could be charged with theft as it is only theft if the bank can prove the error occurred (which is impossible) and then on persuing the individual they refuse to return it.
    You can't charge someone with theft when you gave them the item in question, unless you can prove it was a mistake and then they refuse to give it back.
    Whether it's moral or not has nothing to do with the law (and rarely does).
    Is it moral to sue your employer because you're an incompetant clumsy tw@t who pours hot tar over himself on a building site?
    No, take responsibility for your own stupidity you fool and take comfort from the fact that you're now unemployable.
    But in the eyes of the law it's perfectly valid, "I didn't know the coffee would be hot when I poured it in my lap, I want some money".
    On the morality side of it, I would take anything I can get with no hint of guilt, in fact it would give me a sense of justice.
    Banks waste millions unnecessarily every year writing off fraud which is largely avoidable, they charge me £20 just to tell me I've gone overdrawn, but continue to send me unsolicited loan offers on a daily basis, they still can't explain where my money goes while they take 5 days to clear a cheque paid in but only 2 days to take it out of my account, the list goes on.
    So my legitimate extra tenner in its very very small way is just payback.
    Ahhh, the pills are starting to kick in so I can stop now
    "Nurse, nurse, he's out of bed again!"
    #40

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