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Handling Characteristics - 1.9TDi 130 Sport - to 2.5TDi 180 Quattro Sport

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by sc00byd00byd00, Sep 15, 2009.

  1. sc00byd00byd00
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    sc00byd00byd00 Frank and Beans...............

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    Hey all,

    I used to have a 51 plate 130bhp Sport and loved how it was chuckable and the handling was really good for a saloon car.......... (I was running 18" RS4 Reps on Michellin PS2 Rubber)

    Am now in a 2.5 TDi 180bhp Quattro Sport Avant and I find that the car feels ALOT heavier and the turn-in feels alot sloppier and more spongy.....

    Some people have suggested putting an Avant RS4 ARB on, but I think that it also might be a combination of going from PS2's to T1-R's, from 18's to 17's, 1.9TDi to 2.5, and Saloon to Avant ?

    Can anybody settle my mind at this ?

    Also, I find accelerating, especially on trying to get a quick setoff, the 2.5 V6 has quite a slow throttle responce in comparison to the 1.9 130 ? And 1st gear might as well be none existant. (driving style has has to change to be a complete Miss Daisy Chaffeur now, although not to bad when above 3rd gear and moving !!)

    Thoughts ???????
    #1
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  3. paul20v
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    paul20v Audi fanatic

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    Hi
    quattros in general always feel heavier especially with the 2.5 in them
    i have driven and owned both the 1.9 and a lot of various quattros and still do ,
    the 1.9 is a lot more nimble as long as its dry than the 2.5 tdi,
    the quattro will come into its own thou when it rains and you come off a junction a bit quicker also quattros do feel a bit more blunt off the mark (unless you have lots of bhp and torque) but then thats also because there is no drama ,
    hope this helps and im sure im not going to be the only one to comment on this
    Paul
    #2
  4. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    ye i suspect theres quite a weight difference. The quattro system prbably adds at least 100kilos maybe more, and the V6 tdi is going to mean more nose weight too.

    Tyres will make a difference, the larger profile sidewalls on the 17's will feel slightly more "bendy"

    How do the cars compare in terms of mileage? The new car might be in need of a freshen up in terms of bushes and suchlike.

    Even things like wheel alignment can make quite a difference to how a car feels, so i'd get that checked along with the tyre pressures.
    #3
  5. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    The v6 tdi has enough torque to snap the input shaft from nearly tick-over so they gave-it a low ratio gearbox and a notched shaft(will flex like a torsion bar), also being quattro and having to be able to handle muddy roads and snow, etc. The turbocharger is also big so it needs time to spool and its designed to give excelent mid range and also has 4 valves per pot to breathe easy at high speeds. On the other hand, the PD lump has a small turbo wich is designed to work with the engine but runs out of puff at 100+ Mph, where the v6 is into its own element. Learn to change gears quick,then when in third boot-it and it will feel allright. I love the way the engine is on boost when i chuck it on a wet roundabout wich never felt right in a 1.8TQ ?
    #4
  6. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    Interesting post! I have never driven a 1.9 so can only comment from the 2.5Q side of the ring:

    The 2.5 is very low geared as mentioned, (I dont know any specific ratios but will look them up later) I only ever use first to get rolling and go straight to second and let the big wave of torque take over. The 2.5 does have a big torque hole under 1800 rpm which if you change gear at the wrong time can leave you floundering! I have fitted a tuning box which has improved but not eliminated this, and I believe some remaps do the same.

    Again I have no figures, but I imagine a FWD 130 would compare 0-60 wise with a 2.5 Q due the the latters low gearing and extra weight. In wet conditions I'm not so sure .....

    I went from 16" 55 profile tyres to 18" 40 profile's which really firmed up the handling, the car is still running standard SE suspension (for now :sly:) so it still wallows but the 'bite' is much better when you are pushing it.

    RS4 ARB comes very highly recommended by EVERYONE who fits it!
    #5
  7. fjtwelve
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    fjtwelve Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    Remap will assist the lacklustre bottom end response considerably, the standard engine is pretty breathless below 1800rpm, both the Turbochip and Celtic remaps i have had got the engine pulling from 1300-1400rpm, doesn't sound a lot but makes a difference. When around town use lower gears and keep the engine over 1400rpm, gives better response and the oil pressure up (lets not not talk about worn cams now). I used to drive in higher gears as the thing will move at tickover in 6th, but have changed my style now. Our 1.9 is much nippier than the 2.5, the turbo is much smaller and spools up much quicker, but show the 2.5 the open road and theres no doubt which is the better mile muncher. I averaged a very enjoyable 77mph from Moffat to Munich a couple of years ago. Twisty Scottish roads were fun too, but you can't point and squirt, you need to have all your braking out of the way before the apex and foot down so the turbo is blowing when you are cornering, that quattro keeps you stuck to the road. Tyres, pressures, new shocks and set up all make a difference, i have posted everything I have found out in various threads on here, remember the back end of the quattro is adjustable too...Use good quality fuel, I use V Power all the time. I could go on but i'm boring for britain now
    At the end of the day you are in 1.75tonnes of car, its never going to be a sports car, but you can't half have a lot of fun embarrassing someone in one that can't lose that big fat car filling his mirrors...
    #6
  8. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    Here's a few stats (Audi figures) which may be of interest:

    (All figures are for an Avant, 1.9 FWD 130 and 2.5 TDi Q 180)

    Torque: 1.9 - 310 @1900
    2.5 - 370 @ 1500-1500

    Unladen weight: 1.9 - 1460kg
    2.5 - 1650kg

    0-62mph: 1.9 - 10.2 secs
    2.5 - 8.6 secs

    Top speed: 1.9 - 129mph
    2.5 - 140mph

    These are from the brochure, I thought they would list the gear ratios but it appears not :(
    #7
  9. Marc1
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    Marc1 Member

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    I can confirm a well run in 1.9 has better figures than that :). 148BHP, 352NM as standard and top speed is fairly close too to the 2.5 too (at least on a downward gradient).

    V6 and quattro are going to be heavier as mentioned. I think the driving style would need to change to accommodate the additional weight, and early turn in's for the corners. Would love a V6 TDI though.
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  10. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 15, 2009]
    If these figures were taken on a Uk rolling road i do think they are waaay too optimistic ! If yours had a remap then i do believe-it otherwise the 130Bhp the factory quotes will do for the time being...
    #9
  11. Marc1
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    Marc1 Member

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    [Sep 16, 2009]
    It was done on a rolling road, prior to a remap (to 178BHP and 450NM, now back to standard though :mad:). The dynojet rolling roads are supposed to be more accurate and can aparently test between 20HP and 1200HP accurately.

    It's well known though that a lot of the engines are over their suggested outputs. There was a superchip test that showed tests cars over 140BHP as standard. There was also a feature a good while ago in Audi Driver. This does of course mean that the 2.5's are probably over their published outputs too though.

    If you're in good old Yorkshire, you're welcome to come for a spin and see what you think :meeting:
    #10
  12. Nutkin
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    Nutkin Member

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    [Sep 16, 2009]
    agreed my 110 leon was on 2 rolling roads before its map one at 116.9 and another at 118.1 some pd150s came out as near 170bhp a you can get. Was weird but cool.
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  13. JohnboyC
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    JohnboyC Member

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    [Sep 16, 2009]
    Well I have a 2.5TDi Quattro Sport (180hp), running 18" Pirellis (235/40ZR18), with an RS4 ARB. It standard - no re-mapping.
    1st & 2nd gears are pretty low...and are there simply to get you going.....once in 3rd though car pulls very strongly, and on a motorway will sit at 80mph in 6th at about 2500rpm - i.e. very relaxing cruiser...
    Before I had the Audi I had a BMW 328 Sport Coupe (1999 - E36) and it was brilliant - I really loved the way it drove and held the raod - in the dry - but it was awful in the wet.
    Getting into the Audi with the standard ARB I was amazed, in the Sport, just how much body roll there was...which has been significantly improved by the RS4 ARB. The car is very nose heavy....and certainly lacks the balance/poise/grin factor of a BMW 2.8 or 3.0 litre 6 banger (best engines in the world on run of the mill production cars IMHO).

    The 2.5 TDi Q Sport is certainly a heavy old hector, but it feels very safe...and is supurb in the wet.....very sure footed.... Recent 2.0TDi VW Passats I have driven feel very light and very lively.....
    Point of note is that the 2.5 V6 is 1995 & not 2009 technology in terms of engine design....the B7 3.0TDi though looks to be a fantastic motor...

    Due to its weight the 2.5TDi does get through tyres a little to quickly in my view..and there is always the grumble about the exhorbitant cost of a cambelt change.....
    However I do like the style, build quality and the practical side of the A4 Avant has to be said !
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
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  14. Niknak
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    Niknak Member

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    [Sep 16, 2009]
    And a very nice car you have as well! (how you getting on with the new wheel?)

    I have a remapped 1.9tdi 130 and this pulls very well, I can't say I have driven a 2.5 but to my mind the 1.9 does all I need, very light around town, pulls through the gears nice, and cruises at 80 without any effort what so ever, o and now I have a full working DIS a 12 mile trip into Manchester 50 mpg and a trip to Manchester Airport (all motorway) 63MPG bonus!
    #13
  15. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 16, 2009]
    You wont get that from a 2.5 ;)
    #14
  16. adamss24
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    adamss24 Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 16, 2009]
    The only acurate way to test the output of an engine is with an engine dynamometer! Any other roling road just guesses the output and their readings should be taken with a pinch of salt ! Many rolling roads sesions are over optimistic to get your money out of your pocket...:bye:
    #15

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