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haldex vs fwd.....

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Paradox1, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Not intending for this to start world war but just want peoples opinions on on which is better.fwd guys say they better and same for s3 guys. Anyone driven both? Pros and cons?

    If you say s3/a3 is better,give a reason!
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  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    tbh its a little subjective at best... there needs to be a bit more context...

    ...for example... Prawns track car would own the average S3... but... my S3 will put all my 400hp down all day long... fwd wouldn't without a lot of help and a skillfull driver...

    FWD A3 is lighter and more agile, quattro A3/S3 will take big power in its stride...

    Gen 1 haldex is as dumb as mud... can be improved using the expensive performance haldex and can make the car feel more planted driving out of corners (subject to other handling modifications of course) but due to its potentially 'anvil' like operation it can make the back end unpredictable...

    Having driven big turbo FWD cars I would not hesitate choosing haldex quattro over all that wheel spin nonsense but it can be managed using gear based boost mapping and a rather excitable 450hp LCR Bill mapped felt much nicer to drive because of it but I would personally have a quatty and learn to drive it properly with that level of power and torque

    <tuffty/>
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  4. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    S3 + for traction
    A3 + for the weight saving
    IMO its worth the sacrifice for the Haldex, just need to up the engine power.... :icon_thumright:
    #3
  5. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    350bhp+, Haldex.

    Under that 2WD every time.

    Remember guys, Prawn very rarely uses full boost and power because there just isn't any need. So as he is the most powerful fwd man on this forum as well as the quickest we should follow his lead.

    Personal preference isn't it, mines quicker and yours is safer. Just depends what you want.
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  6. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    250+ bhp is wasted on FWD road going car ..Fact
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  7. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Yeah just to make it clear,I don't want a track car,just a farst road car with the odd ADI/track day but nothing on prawns level.
    Is the Weight that significant? Will you actually notice it as in does it feel heavy or isit just a different driving feel?

    Also what's the handling like?
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  8. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Fact denied Dave, maybe in 1983 when you were rinsing RS Turbos but not in 2013. Things have come on a long way bro.

    I have driven a GT30 Seat Leon, 360bhp+ at the time. It was a really good car to drive, went like **** even with the wheel spin. Very exciting, very engaging, everything was happening. I put my foot down in a 350bhp S3 and it is just a bit sedate for my liking.

    You need to have a drive in a well built 8L Dave, it feels just like your S3 but lighter.

    -

    My plus sides for FWD are;

    02J
    More exciting and engaging drive.
    Light weight.
    Better balance.
    Less power to go just as fast as a Haldex car.
    Dependable wheel spin/driving characteristics.
    Cheap to buy downpipes for.

    :)
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  9. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I had a 250 bhp ko4d MK4 Golf and you are right it is entertaining, but also tiresome, 4 up and wheel spinning in 3rd...
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  10. kwistof
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    kwistof South East Events Moderator Regional Rep

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Granted the FWD may 'feel' just like an S3 but lighter.....but as you're 'feeling' that you can watch the S3 go past you in any damp/wet conditions due to the Quattro giving additional traction. Let's face it....the UK is hardly known as a hot place....and going round corners is more fun than straight line speed IMO. Hence the reason why I ended up with a 4wd S3 and decided against other FWD contenders.

    Once you get used to how and when the Quattro kicks in, it's really not as bad as everyone makes out - it's no Torsen but it's good enough. Everyone I've spoken to who has had stage 2 or more with a Haldex properly raves on about how that although it seems a lot at the start to pay out....it's really worth the upgrade to the blue controller once it's fitted; plus they pretty much keep there value when you need sell the motor.
    #9
  11. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    You guys are getting mixed up in what you think is better and have missed what Marty wants :(

    Marty wants a nice sensible daily that he can cruise around London in, and on a nice day go for a quick blast. He would like to do the odd track day (he lives literally next to Brands) and things like ADI.

    My personal experience is that Marty wants exactly what I used to have.

    ADI 2011 was potentially the best day of my motoring life. I got my in 230bhp stage 2 A3, stripped the rear seats out and put a spare set of wheels in the back. Drove to ADI with my girlfriend in the car, and averaged 38mpg on the way there.

    Swapped the wheels over and sent my girlfriend out for the first session in my car, it was her first time on track and she is an incredibly nervous driver as a result of a horiffic car crash. It was also her first time on slicks...

    She put in a great performance, middle of the field, rinsing everything on the straight then braking early and following the smoothest line in and out that she could.

    Through this first session my car was faultless. Absolutely faultless.

    Then after the cool down lap with the P Zero Corsa's still on I took three or four members of the forum out for a hoon.

    Parked the car up for an hour, went for a wander.

    Went out on track myself, two up. Rinsed everything on the straight and led for the first lap. Prawn passed me coming through Avon Rise on the second lap, and I continued to lead the pack of S3's for the remainder of the track session. Again, apart from boiling the PAS fluid my car was totally faultless.

    Fast forward to 9:10 ish. I was keeping up with the professionally driven NSU's.

    Audi Driver International 2011 @ Castle Combe - Best of the Rest (of my footage) - YouTube

    :)

    Packed my stuff up, drove it home two and a half hours and by the time I got home my MPG average was 32.

    Didn't touch the car afterwards and continued to drive it daily for 6 months afterwards.

    So in short, in my experience, a well built A3 is a perfect balance (NOT COMPROMISE) for a maintainable, affordable and enjoyable competitive track/fast road weapon. Which can still be daily driven by anybody.

    Marty is coming from a 240bhp K03s Mk4 Golf with meth; and if it wasn't for unfortunate demise of his car I am not sure he would be looking to change at all.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
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  12. kwistof
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    kwistof South East Events Moderator Regional Rep

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    What sort of bhp/spec would you want to end up at then Marty?

    Also I didn't know you was right next to Brands hatch! You go to many prept meets?

    I'm also assuming your day at ADI Jardo was one of those rare dry ones ;-)

    Ooooo video posting....

    Well here is my S3 keeping up with my mate in his GT3 then in that case :) haha

    Early morning run 1 - YouTube

    Not sure what the outcome would have been if I was only FWD tbh- I probably wouldn't have pushed so much into the corners as it was a little damp from what I remember through morning dew.
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  13. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Cool video! Roads are nice, they remind me of the A339 back home in Basingstoke.

    And yes, it was a glorious day. If it had of been wet I would have been ****ed; given the Pirelli P Zero Corsas haha.

    At ADI 2011 Prawn rinsed a full fat Bumble with 190bhp...haha :p
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  14. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I think it depends on what drivetrain I have for my next car. If its fwd then 300 max would do me, if an s3 then any high number will do as I'd have the haldex to put the power down.

    Dont get me wrong I think the s3 is a lovely looking car, come with k04 as standard and 4wd. the only thing that shocked me about them is that nobody could touch prawn and Jardo on the track at ADI???

    Last thing I expected.... isit that they dont handle well around corners or are they really THAT heavy??

    As Jardo said I dont want a all out track car or even a million BHP drag car. Just a good all rounder that handles great,stops good, is practical and can handle a few trackdays/drag strip santa pods days.

    Kwistof, I live on the other side of the m25 so about an hour from Brands but its not far really.
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  15. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    What about an LCR?

    PERFECT for what you want. And within budget...

    S3's aren't a BAD car, they are very good. But a properly sorted A3 is a very under estimated car, a lot of S3 owners started with an A3, never really got thay far with modifying them and went to an S3. If you stick with it, learn the problems and how to rectify them then they are a very rewarding car.
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  16. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Dont like em...

    No my cup of Tea. I drove my friends one and didnt think much of it tbh. Much prefered the golf.

    Kwistof - your s3 looks like it pulls hard!
    #15
  17. kwistof
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    kwistof South East Events Moderator Regional Rep

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Cheers dude- was just a small section of a blast to the coast; I'm often getting up and going for a drive with mates at stupid o clock on a Sunday morning to places like Goodwood etc.

    I'm unable to view your video at work, so will have a little watch later on. Yeah I was going to say it must have been a lovely day to use that rubber.......track orientated and one of the best out there.

    With all due respect....on the track you are going to try that bit harder in an A3 than an S3 driver in A3 vs S3 battle...I mean the driver of the A3 is always going to be trying to show up the S3.....Just like any S3 owner would like to give cars such as the Porsche Boxster a run for it's money....in that clip I posted I expect I was trying a lot more harder than my friend in his GT3....lol
    #16
  18. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I would take that as a pinch of salt TBH Marty, i saw it has a fun session, and apart from Prawns they were all road cars, with road tyres...
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  19. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    And at this point I am asking myself what more I can add to this thread; and I can think of nothing.

    Whatever Marty buys it will be epic I am sure of it.

    :beerchug:
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  20. kwistof
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    kwistof South East Events Moderator Regional Rep

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Thanks :wub: she's only stage 1 + handling mods - but Bill did put a great map on her....he could have gone for head line bhp figures I suppose, but I did say I was into fast road and possibly tracking it at some point - so he gave me a very appropriate map for my car and the way I drive.

    I may as well mention that I am in the process of getting my car ready to track it next year as I live 10 minutes away from Lydden Hill and I am determined to go to the Ring next year in my S3. I will be pretty much the same as you in what I want...a daily driver that can have the rear seats whipped out and 17s with R888 stuck on and bung it on the track.

    I will be using this year to gather parts, information and help on my first track day experience.....so 2014 ADI I will be going in hardfor the 8L S3 guys :D
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  21. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    This thread has already turned to ****.
    Tufftys was the only post with any reasoning.

    Marty, jardos claim that he rinsed everyone like prawn did has about as much truth to it as the statement 'haldex is awesome'. Prawn rinsed everyone because of his ability, experience, car. 99% of people on that track that day dont have a car they wish to thrash or risk an accident, and in no way claim to have any sort of track skill or experience.

    The truth about gen1 haldex is its a little lazy, which makes it a little unpredictable when you arent used to it.
    Lets not forget that this is a system designed to give fwd cruising and town driving economy and feel, with as much 4wd grip when needes. IT IS A COMPROMISED SYSTEM from the get go, its trying to do 2 jobs. It will never be as good as a permanent 4 system, so if you have experience of true 4wd cars, you will think its poor.

    However.

    It does do its job. You learn its behaviour, yiu drive to yours and the cars ability. On the road, ive never pushed it hard enough to let me down, it grips and grips and grips, point and shoot styleee! That is what is great about 4wd, any 4wd.
    It delivers a solid driving feel, it feels so connected to the road, and often you know full well that its 4wd.


    The only time it will really catch you out is in wet conditions, slippery horrible roads. Thats when you learn its slow reactions, as you drive enthusiastically, enter a corner too fast, the front will push out hard, ala fwd stylee. Then with a split second it will wake the **** up and correct the situation, save your ass and get you round the corner ready to mash the throttle out of it sooner than any fwd would ever allow. And the good thing is, that situations like that remind you that its there and will save your ass 90% of the time.

    as tuffty has said, this is a never ending battle of opinions and experiences, or lack of, without some context.

    imo there is no winner, just 2 systema both with pros and cons, of which you need to decide the pros you like the most, or the cons you dont mind having.

    i drive a focus ST alot of the time, its very torquey, almost impossible to keep off boost, much like a ko3/s car, and it can be somewhat irritating sometimes when pushing in a rush. Step into the haldex s3, and you can be lazy with throttle input and drive however you want and make dam good progress, its such a relief it honestly is.

    at the end of my rant i think ive come to a little conclusion. If youre a good driver, im talking track driving ability, know how to manage throttle and adapt to your car, ala prawn, then fwd will suffice for sure, and you will see more of the pros of fwd, and less of the cons.
    The average joe, not an experienced driver, like 95% of people in this forum, then you will appreciate more of the pros of 4wd, and less of the cons.

    I hope that makes sense. And offers a reasonable opinion.
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  22. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Simple haldex AWD vs FWD example...

    AWD...


    FWD...


    :)

    <tuffty/>
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  23. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I never said I rinsed everyone SK, I said I rinsed them on the straight and led the pack.

    Which was entirely true; I far outpaced everybody on the straights, I had passed Jojo and an unknown S3 by the time we got to Avon. But my lack of ability/experience and S3's corner exit traction pulled people closer in mid corner. I was always in front by a few car lengths, until the last two or three laps when it came together and I realised it wasn't a race.

    I learnt a lot about driving FWD in that session, you can't be aggressive. You need to plan, enter and exit the corner as smooth as you can with the most linear throttle application possible and maintain your vehicles speed by trusting the chassis to hold you through.

    Being a fast road driver I was totally wrong, and used to point and shoot driving. THATS the difference between Prawn and I; experience.

    Our cars weren't all that different on the day. His had less power, Brembos and a RARB. He wasn't that far into the project at that point, it was still a focused road car adapted for track use.

    My issues with turning in too shallow and washing out the front end are more than evident in the short clip I posted above.

    For the second phase of cornering the S3's behind had a noted traction advantage. No denying that.

    The cash you save on an A3 could buy a diff and rebuilt 02J; then we are talking a whole different kettle of fish.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
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  24. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Horses for courses chaps!

    its as simple as that
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  25. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I think tuffty posted te wrong vid earlier.

    He must have intended to post this one:



    jardo makes a brief appearance.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  26. Sam_
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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    This was always going to end in tears.

    I've driven powerful FWD cars and owned a 750kg/170hp n/a 205 which even at that low power loved to wheel spin on corner exit etc. High power FWD is fun sure, but a different kind of fun. Can be remedied with decent diffs (ATB or even better, plate) though.

    As Karl says, it can be much more of a point and squirt affair in an S3. Mine's far from stock suspension-wise now (solid bushed, rose jointed etc) and it's hard to remember what stock was like since I changed suspension and Haldex controller (blue) almost straight away. I've only ever got out of shape when the alignment was off (made a big difference) after fitting the camber plates and adjustable rear control arms. I'm keen to get it on the track and see how it really handles.

    Would be cool to give a properly sorted A3 a go to compare but doubt it'll happen unless I came back there...
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  27. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    "****ing hell, that things quick on the straight!"

    Cheers Prawn.

    I stand by my original comment having reviewed that, I ****ing rinsed you lot haha.

    Eclipsed by Prawns 190bhp fury.
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  28. Sam_
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    Sam_ Down under

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Stacey really needs to get his car finished, Andrew stop blowing his up, Tuffty finish his and you all go on a trackday. Comparing to stage 1/2 cars isn't exactly fair. Prawns obviously got more balls/skills than the guys there, combined with better power to weight.

    If you're going for high power, then the S3 would clearly be a better base as already stated. You have to wonder why a lot of the A3 guys retro fit many of the parts from the S3. The price difference can't be that high anymore back there anyway?

    There's also the better rear suspension setup on the S3.
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  29. koruptc5
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    koruptc5 Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    RWD ;-)
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  30. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    what video are you watching?! you start at the front, get wasted by prawn, and then thats it, no where to be seen. you didnt catch up with the back runners, because prawn only just managed it on the last lap.

    you really are deluded.
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  31. koruptc5
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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Anyway, ive had RWD, FWD & 4WD cars, and to be honest, my favourite by a mile is RWD....but if your car is set up properly you can have fun in them all, i know i can out drive most impreza drivers (average) with my FWD A6.
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  32. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Are you unable to judge distances SK haha, look at the gulf of tarmac between JJ and I; Prawn mullered the entire field in the time it took him to get from Jo to me.

    Worth noting I started two cars behind Jo and passed both of them before Avon; you can clearly see me take both of them on the right as Prawn exits the pit.

    I am miiiiles ahead after half a lap. I guess it was hard to see for you, 1/4 of a mile behind. Its there on video, huge gap between Jo and I.

    :p
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
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  33. koruptc5
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    koruptc5 Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Civic vs skylines RACE - YouTube

    This shows a Ek9 turbo FWD (i have owned) holding its own against the greatest car ever built imho ( i do love gtr's) Sorry.lol Not a street race btw, real track action
    #32
  34. Jason.s
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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Yawn....

    Jardo we`re planning another ASN trackday at Bedford in a few months you should come and get out on track. Prawn is coming too. There will be a mix of A3 and S3 in various tunes so the perfect way to make a final judgement.
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  35. ScottD3
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    ScottD3 I want your faulty electronics Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]

    I'll bring Audrey, it will give him something to lap. :ninja:
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  36. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    you overtake people out of a pit lane at the very start. lmao
    yeh, geeeee, very fast, and very capable
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  37. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    It took Prawn 41 seconds to get from the A4 at Avon Rise to be along side Jo just before the kink after esses.

    When Jo is along side Prawn at Hammer I am half way into Tower.

    It then took Prawn 36 seconds to get from Jo to alongside me; he passes me moments before saying "**** me that thing is quick on the straights!", I remember this because after I had regained traction I was along side him on the run up to Croft long enough for his passenger (Andy) to call me a ****er through the window.

    Prawn them says "**** me that thing is fast on the straights!" due to the fact we were sat next to each other all through the straight to Croft and rockets ahead as I brake for Croft.

    Which means that by Folly I must have been a minimum of 30 seconds ahead of Jo; and he was by far the closest car on the day.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
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  38. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    Give me dates and I will try to book Bedford :)

    I will make a concious effort to make ADI this year again as well.
    #37
  39. Sam_
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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    As I said, this will be good to see.
    #38
  40. koruptc5
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    koruptc5 Member

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I hate to say it, and i have no biased whatsoever BUT he caught you up from the back, and drove straight past you...he is quicker...much quicker
    #39
  41. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

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    [Jun 12, 2013]
    I never questioned Prawns speed, I commented on how much quicker my FWD A3 was than every Haldex S3 on the track at the same time.

    And given the distance shown in the video by less than a lap, I think the advantages of a light weight car with FWD are quite nicely shown :)
    #40

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