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Haldex performance controller

fdussud Mar 20, 2006

  1. fdussud

    fdussud Member

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    Has anyone changed out there Haldex controller for the performance one on a TT or S3?

    What do you think of it if you have installed this? Are you experiencing any more fuel consumption.?

    I have been thinking of getting one but cant find too much information about it. If anyone could help out that would be great.
     
  2. jcb

    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    star perfomrnace have a remapped ECU for the haldex, alters the split front to rear
     
  3. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    I've had it fitted and I'd say it's brilliant. Seems to change the whole attitude of the car in corners, less understeer and more planted.

    There are those that say if you sort out the chassis set-up you don't need the Haldex PP, but I think the option of a sorted chassis and the HPP is the best way to go.
     
  4. jcb

    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    what did it cost and how tricky was it to fit etc
     
  5. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    There are those that say if you sort out the chassis set-up you don't need the Haldex PP, but I think the option of a sorted chassis and the HPP is the best way to go.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm afraid I'm one of them...
    You sort the **** chassis out and you don't need to try to fool it into behaving by messing with the drive...

    If you have enough front end grip, and peroperly matched springs, dampers and ARBs you'll end up with a far more progressive, predictable and enjoyable car to drive...which relies less on electronics to mask and try and cover up underlaying problems with the basic set-up.

    But that's just my view from studying chassis dynamics and understanding how a car works...

    But, as always, there are more than one way to attack a problem...
     
  6. god_thats_quick

    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    [ QUOTE ]
    But that's just my view from studying chassis dynamics and understanding how a car works...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Smart arse! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  7. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Smart arse! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not at all...or wasn't meant to sound that way anyway.


    You can attack the same problem many ways...but to me, trying to fix the faults of an understeering numb chassis by trying to make it oversteer more, is not going to cut it.
    It's like using a sledge hammer to crack a hazlenut.


    I had my S3 snap oversteer under power on two ocassions...both with a standard Haldex controller...the last thing that car needed was any more drive to the rear.

    I could also drive that car using the rear wheels...4 wheel power-slide out of corners etc...all totally predictable, and controllable...and with a standard Haldex controller.

    I really see no need for more rear drive.


    Anyone who's driven my old S3 will confirm that a properly sorted chassis doesn't need any more electronic intervention on the drive front, to make it good to drive...both David and I considered fitting one as an experiment...but decided it was likely to cause instability and unpredictability in an otherwise well sorted and benign car.

    Being a bit of a traditionalist...I'd rather fix the problems, rather than mask them - which I believe this is.
     
  8. eddyg

    eddyg Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    If you have enough front end grip, and peroperly matched springs, dampers and ARBs you'll end up with a far more progressive, predictable and enjoyable car to drive...which relies less on electronics to mask and try and cover up underlaying problems with the basic set-up.

    But that's just my view from studying chassis dynamics and understanding how a car works...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Unfortunately the rest of us haven't studied chassis dynamics and understanding how a car works and instead just drive them. For us it's actually quite hard to determine what the properly matched springs, dampers and ARBs would be. So maybe it's easier (but not better) to go for the Haldex PreX and get 90% of the solution with 10% of the effort /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Note that I personally tried the chassis setup approach before going for the Haldex PreX, but I just found that there were too many options - and I didn't really know what I was doing, and had no decent testing area. And so gave up after simply putting KW adjustable coilovers in - can't even recall what I adjusted them to.

    Cheers, Ed.
     
  9. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Unfortunately the rest of us haven't studied chassis dynamics and understanding how a car works and instead just drive them.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Very good...but there are enough good and proven set-ups listed on here to take the guess work out of it.

    As for driving the damn thing...I'll bet I drive harder than most...but I really struggled with the S3 standard...so something had to be done.


    [ QUOTE ]

    For us it's actually quite hard to determine what the properly matched springs, dampers and ARBs would be.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I disagree...
    You buy the same kit as people who do know what they are doing, and can drive, have used and proven to work.
    To me, that would seem sensible...have someone else do the hard work...there's no shasme in that.
    I would have if I could have found someone to give me all the settings, components etc...it would have saved me 2 years and £1000s.


    [ QUOTE ]

    So maybe it's easier (but not better) to go for the Haldex PreX and get 90% of the solution with 10% of the effort /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe it is easier...
    But it's not solving the problems...it's masking them and potentially causing others.

    I disagree about gaining 90% of the gains...adding a Haldex controller to a car with little front end grip doesn't reduce understeer...it only gives more oversteer.
    They are not the same...
    you still can't throw the car about like a properly sorted car with a standard Haldex controller.

    A decent chassis will have as much front end grip as the driver needs...the S3 is standard or mildly modded form, just doesn't provide that...so you can't make use of the additional drive the Haldex controller may/may not provide unless you can keep the damn nose locked to the apex...which you can't on an S3 without plenty of work.

    Or perhaps I just expect more from my cars...or set my standards of what i'll live with a bit higher?


    [ QUOTE ]

    Note that I personally tried the chassis setup approach before going for the Haldex PreX, but I just found that there were too many options - and I didn't really know what I was doing, and had no decent testing area. And so gave up after simply putting KW adjustable coilovers in - can't even recall what I adjusted them to.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, in my view...there are plenty of people who should be able to offer set-up assistance.
    You have one of the finest coilover sets out there (I'm a huge fan of KW) so it seems a waste not to go the last few steps and turn the S3 into a proper Evo and STI beater...which can easily be done...
     
  10. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    Like I said, there are those that aren't too keen on the HPP. I agree with Ess_Three's comments, but disagree at the same time.

    The HPP will help with the S3's chassis issues and make it a much better drive. Sorting out the chassis issues will make it a much better drive. Either way it's better!

    To sort out the alignment and handling, you need front and rear ARBs (£400+VAT), adjustable rear tie-arms (£250+VAT), and a digital re-alignment (£60). I'd also recommend powerflex bushes and decent tyres. If you want to get really anal, you should also think about the unsprung weight - lighter wheels and brakes.

    Or you can have a very good compromise for under £600. The HPP won't give you armfulls of opposite lock, but it will cancel out understeer and give the car a much more planted feel. Also, if you've had a remap and are suffering from torque steer, the HPP gets rid of that too. You get four wheel drive more often, under more circumstances, and in my book that's always better than 2wd. But that's how I drive and how I like the car to feel.

    I think the ultimate goal should be sort out the overall set-up, but there's no reason why you shouldn't take advantage of what the car can do with the errors accounted for electronically. If you want an EVO killer, then don't forget the alphabet of acronyms they use to get from A to B.

    Personally, I like the idea of a well sorted car AND the option of more 4x4 fun!
     
  11. TDI_Boy

    TDI_Boy Member

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    ChriS3,

    You don't make any mention of springs/shocks in your post. I am just curious if you consider the standard ones OK? This is turning into a good thread on sorting the chassis without the modified haldex controller. Obviously with a TDI I have a slightly different starting place to the S3 but the theroy is all still good.

    I'm afraid I am trying to go along the 'somone else has done all the hard work' route as suggested above... so if someone could post the 'How to sort your Quattro Chassis Shopping List' that would be cool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Cheers
    Mark
     
  12. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    [ QUOTE ]
    You don't make any mention of springs/shocks in your post. I am just curious if you consider the standard ones OK?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry, I was still thinking about eddyg's KW coilovers - yum!

    [ QUOTE ]

    I'm afraid I am trying to go along the 'somone else has done all the hard work' route as suggested above... so if someone could post the 'How to sort your Quattro Chassis Shopping List' that would be cool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Cheers
    Mark

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think Ess_Three has spent more time and money than most other's on here looking into it, or he at least shares his knowledge more than any one else. Have a look HERE (Cheers min!)

    If you search on the threads and read all you can, I think the conclusion you come to is something like this (my set-up in progress):

    FRONT

    Tyre Pressure: 34psi
    Toe Out: 2 minutes
    Camber: -1.5°
    Castor: Front sub-frame out
    Height: -30mm
    Anti-roll bar: 22mm
    Spacers: 8-16mm



    REAR

    Tyre Pressure: 38psi
    Camber: -0.5°
    Height: -30mm
    Anti-roll bar: 19mm
    Spacers: 15mm



    ADDITIONAL

    Haldex Performance Part
    Eibach Coilovers
    Powerflex Bushes
    BBS CH 18" Wheels
    GSD F1 Tyres

    To adjust the rear camber, you need the adjustable rear tie-arms. As for getting anal, I really want to go for the bling and get the big brake conversion with the six pot cayenne calipers, but the four pots are lighter so I'll have to make do with the 'little' but lighter set-up.
     
  13. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    ChriS3,

    You don't make any mention of springs/shocks in your post. I am just curious if you consider the standard ones OK? This is turning into a good thread on sorting the chassis without the modified haldex controller. Obviously with a TDI I have a slightly different starting place to the S3 but the theroy is all still good.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Mark, perhaps I can add a few comments...

    The TDIq will respond in exactly the same way as the S3s chassis..
    Perhaps the TDI lump is a few KGs heavier...which may mean a change in tyre pressures but the basice will stand.

    I'm pretty sure all the springs, dampers, ARBs and settings will work just as well...but I've not tried it.


    [ QUOTE ]

    I'm afraid I am trying to go along the 'somone else has done all the hard work' route as suggested above... so if someone could post the 'How to sort your Quattro Chassis Shopping List' that would be cool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Do a search of Star Performance Testing....by me, from a few years ago....
    Everything you'll ever want to knowe will be in there...

    And don't be afraid to copy a proven set up...that's the smart thing to do.

    It's what I did with my 911...why should I re-invent the wheel when Porsche offer a proven kit with a tick in the right place on the options list?
    It's be stupid / rude not to.
     
  14. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    One more thing...tha standars springs and shocks are very definately not alright. They are awful...woefully under-damped and giv the chassis an awful feel.
    The dampers are barely competent with standard ARBs and springs...and a liability with the uprasted stuff.

    Budget for decent quality stuff...it'll pay off in the end.
    I favoured the Bilsteins for the quattros...with Konis for the FWD stuff (due to the fact you can crank up the rear damping rates). The Bilsteins are valved impecably.
     
  15. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Like I said, there are those that aren't too keen on the HPP. I agree with Ess_Three's comments, but disagree at the same time.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Don't get me wrong...it's a decent product, that works...and does what it should.
    I just don'r think it's the answer to an S3s **** chassis...it masks the main problems, and while it doeal allow you to drive harder, it moves the chassis to the limit of it's envelope of competence...so when it goes wrong, you crash.

    For me, a totally benign, properly sorted chassis allows more chucking about without the fear of a bite back...

    ..and you can get that on a standard Haldex controller.


    [ QUOTE ]

    The HPP will help with the S3's chassis issues and make it a much better drive. Sorting out the chassis issues will make it a much better drive. Either way it's better!


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree that it adds confidence to the car...and ultimately makes the car faster point to point...but I don't agree that it does it in the most controllable way...or the way that is the best from a keen driver's point of view.


    [ QUOTE ]

    To sort out the alignment and handling, you need front and rear ARBs (£400+VAT), adjustable rear tie-arms (£250+VAT), and a digital re-alignment (£60). I'd also recommend powerflex bushes and decent tyres. If you want to get really anal, you should also think about the unsprung weight - lighter wheels and brakes.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I never bothered with bushes...but to save changing them as the S3 wears them out (which mine did) they are a good idea.

    Wheels are very important...in both size and weight.
    Not too wide (the S3 is overtyred in my view anyway)...and as light as you can.

    Brakes...another subject completely...bling, or performance?


    [ QUOTE ]

    Also, if you've had a remap and are suffering from torque steer, the HPP gets rid of that too. You get four wheel drive more often, under more circumstances, and in my book that's always better than 2wd. But that's how I drive and how I like the car to feel.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Do you get torque steer?

    Even running 1.85 bar boost and 320+ lb-ft I was getting no torque steer at all...
    Your set up must be off...


    [ QUOTE ]

    I think the ultimate goal should be sort out the overall set-up, but there's no reason why you shouldn't take advantage of what the car can do with the errors accounted for electronically. If you want an EVO killer, then don't forget the alphabet of acronyms they use to get from A to B.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    True...but you get an artificial feel to the drive then...I much prefer an organic feel...and although the numb S3 chassis isn't the best place to start...it can be done...with pretty good results.

    Probably why both myself and David R wish we'd never sold 'my' old S3.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Personally, I like the idea of a well sorted car AND the option of more 4x4 fun!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe that's the difference...I don't care how many wheels are being driven...as long as it goes where I want, at the speed I want, excites, challenges and is neutral when I cock-up...it'll do for me.
     
  16. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    I think Ess_Three has spent more time and money than most other's on here looking into it, or he at least shares his knowledge more than any one else. Have a look HERE (Cheers min!)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    My pleasure...even if it only helps one person, it'll be useful.


    [ QUOTE ]

    As for getting anal, I really want to go for the bling and get the big brake conversion with the six pot cayenne calipers, but the four pots are lighter so I'll have to make do with the 'little' but lighter set-up.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ooh...another passionate subject.

    Unsprung weight is bad...so as light as will do the job, is best...in my opinion.

    Also, 'big' callipers are a missmatch for the master cylinder, which ends up with long pedal travel and bad feel...

    The Brembo GT kit is perfect,...it's all anyone will ever need on road or track...as they were designed to work with a S3 sized MS.
    Any more is just additional weight and bling.

    That's my controvertial view...
     
  17. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    <font color="black"> Bah! Another post hacked to pieces! How can I reply when I can hardly keep up? </font>

    [ QUOTE ]

    Brakes...another subject completely...bling, or performance?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    My current dilemma. I'm tempted by the bling...

    [ QUOTE ]

    Do you get torque steer?

    Even running 1.85 bar boost and 320+ lb-ft I was getting no torque steer at all...
    Your set up must be off...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not so much torque steer, but more of a squirm under heavy acceleration. I'm running at 1.4 bar on a Star re-map and a few other bits. It was also before the rear tie-arms went in.

    Your thread's have certainly help me. My car handles well just now, and it's getting better.
     
  18. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Unsprung weight is bad...so as light as will do the job, is best...in my opinion.

    Also, 'big' callipers are a missmatch for the master cylinder, which ends up with long pedal travel and bad feel...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, but the big ones look better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
     
  19. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, but the big ones look better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Jesus...is that what I'm up against? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  20. TDI_Boy

    TDI_Boy Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    My pleasure...even if it only helps one person, it'll be useful.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Believe me, it helps! Cheers.

    I will now go and study some threads! I had a -30mm eibach setup with a neuspeed rear arb on my Mk4 golf and was very happy with it, but I would like to get a bit more out of the A3.

    In terms of ARBs, are the r32 items a good upgrade? I don't know the sizes of them compared to the neuspeed versions?

    Cheers
    Mark
     
  21. TDI_Boy

    TDI_Boy Member

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    Just read the debate about r32 arbs on the link above!

    ta
    Mark
     
  22. fdussud

    fdussud Member

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    Seeing as my audi dealer told me my standard Haldex controler was going bad and quoted me 900 pounds to replace it, I think I will go for the cheaper and better handling solution...
     
  23. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    The HPP is £499+VAT and fitting, under 600 all in.
     
  24. amb276s3

    amb276s3 bird spotter

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    I went for the Haldex controller and H&R front and rear ARB's , i find the car sits well etc in all conditions and handles perfectly, i steered away from changing springs and dampers because i feared losing ride quality, although i imagine springs etc would improve setup further each to their own, try something and see for yourself, my concern was to reduce body roll on cornering and get more drive to the rear wheels earlier when exiting roundabouts etc, and thats what i achieved.
     
  25. dummi

    dummi smoking a6

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    does haldex work with an electric clutch then?
     

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