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Go(ne) APR - finally!

Discussion in 'RS3 Forum' started by MBK, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    So what I thought my car needed was a bit more red :laugh: (those of you who know my car will understand...) and this is the new red accessory I chose:

    [​IMG]

    In fact sharp eyed Morells knew my car had been mapped before I did when pictures appeared on the APR Facebook page! Oh and if you check the page I wasn't there alone!

    A big thank you to Gwent VW Gwent VW - Car Specialists who are hugely knowledgeable and enthusiastic about Audi tuning for doing the work quickly and looking after my RS3 so well.

    The full story with pictures, performance figures, some real world driving impressions and, well you know me by now, some video will follow in a few days. I think you will find at least one of the results quite surprising, I know I have.

    Initial impression: for now I will leave you with this, yes you should, while the sale is still on! It's the RS3 you know and love with even more Go.

    Feel free to ask any questions, or suggest any tests, over the next few days and I'll do my best to answer them.
    #1
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  3. Sandra
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    Sandra MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    ​Looking forward to this Mark. Have fun with your testing and be safe. :) x
    #2
  4. Mr_Freeze
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    Mr_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    Mark, i suggest as a test, that i be allowed to drive the Red Rocket, to give an accurate comparison :whistle2:
    #3
  5. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    You're on, I've seen you drive fast and safe! Lets get a meet sorted and you are welcome to have a go. I know you are busy this weekend but after that is good with me.
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  6. Mr_Freeze
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    Mr_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    :jump::friends::jump:
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  7. Veneeringman
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    Veneeringman Bazinga VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    Awww stop it now !!! you are tempting me with this :laugh:
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  8. elton121272
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    elton121272 Active Member

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    MKB - congrats on taking the next step - I'm sure your full review will not only give further confidence to those sceptical of a remap under warranty but also help all UK mappers offering RS3 upgrades see a lift in sales ;-)

    My personal experience of maps has been all about the power curve in relation to acceleration flat spots - i have never really been too interested on top speed effects - so my first Q would be given your own testing before mapping giving an accurate 0-60 in 4.2s, how much faster would you say the stage 1 now offers? Sub 4's would be a real step up to the next level?!?

    Next Q is what is your estimate bhp now? And lastly if I'm not being too personal, how much did the map cost?

    I've been keen to remap since day 1 but then got put off by a very early post about the engine that went puff!

    Like other fellow owners mate, I look forward to your comments and compelling review.

    cheers.
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  9. MB RS3
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    MB RS3 Member

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    [Aug 7, 2013]
    Looking forward to your review matey!

    I have been following this forum in the background closely & have been waiting for you to make the step up to Stage 1!

    I think it's been coming for sometime seeing your posts on RS3OC etc too!

    Congrats & I seriously can't wait to get mine! :thumbsup:
    #8
  10. CarrG
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    CarrG Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Nice one Mark!

    Come on what's the racelogic recording 0-60 lol...

    When you fitting the IC ;-)
    #9
  11. mista sj
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    mista sj New Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Im glad you are happy with it :) r&r session booked In tomorrow for 1030.

    Saj @ gwentvw
    #10
  12. klauster
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    klauster Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    easily sub 4 seconds, light and day, I have had 3 cars mapped up to now and the RS3 is by far the biggest difference! Congrats on taking the leap :jump:
    #11
  13. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Thanks all, just covered about 150 miles of challenging A&B roads, I'd like to say "don't waste your money" but that would be a lie!

    Elton - the APR map cost £671.04 in the 'sale', £838 usually. Good suggestions for tests too I will see what I can do!

    I will video and figure the 0-60 and beyond when I get a mo. I'm confident it's under 4 seconds!

    More soon when I stop laughing and mildly shaking!
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  14. wickedstef
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    wickedstef Active Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Hi Mark,

    Well done!

    Now imagine you're back with that 997. Tell me the new story :)
    #13
  15. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    It would be an interesting one for sure Stef, I think he might still have the edge but who knows!

    How are you getting on with the Michelin Pilot Super Sports? I hope they are wearing much better. Mine are still perfect across the middle and especially the edges/shoulders after 7k miles.
    #14
  16. wickedstef
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    wickedstef Active Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Well, I am very satisfied with them at the front so far and I haven't noticed any abnormal wear.

    I am also monitoring the steering wheel behaviour since I had the alignment adjusted as there are really bad roads I take everyday and I fear to see steering wheel vibration coming back. On Another note, I drove the Megane RS for so long that I still find the RS3 nose heavy and heavy on its front tyres. That said, I can't remember what front wheel spinning is about :). I used to have torque steer and quite a bit of spinning with the Megane. Finally, it's frightening how fast you can take a roundabout, drawing its curves on the very left lane. The thing just stick to the tarmac, even when the road goes down then up in the curve.
    Untitled.jpg
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
    #15
  17. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I'm glad you're satisfied with them, always like to know I'm making sensible recommendations.

    I think the Michelin's will help retain the alignment being a stiffer tyre but sadly bad roads are more and more the norm these days. I agree with you the RS3 will always feel front heavy compared to the Megane (I love those little rockets as you know!), it's the Audi way. As you say grip is immense, try just trimming your entry speed slightly and then getting back on the power earlier, I think this helps a lot as it pushes more power rearwards. As you say though no front wheel spin or torque steer - but now you know why those poor old Conti's only lived a short life!

    Oh and wait until you map it, you might well experience some wheel spin again!
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  18. wickedstef
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    wickedstef Active Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I'm fevereshly waiting for your detailed feedback. I bought a 5 year manufacturer warranty :-/. We will see!
    #17
  19. elton121272
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    elton121272 Active Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Thanks for the feedback Mark.

    Sounds like you are having lots of fun and even though I have a few further Q's I hope you can help with, I must admit I am already tempted. Furthermore, there is a dealer close to me so if they can 'flash' my ECU without any bench work needed, I think I may already by sold....however:

    I've been reading APR's website on the upgrade and assume you went for the 98 RON map?

    I note that APR quote up to 76 bhp of an improvement from stock on that remap which in my mind is well worth the upgrade.

    However I also note that they say stock RS3's vary.... with up to 360 bhp as standard - did they benchmark yours before the upgrade?

    Also for that price do they RR the car after remap or is that purely for the ECU software via the port?

    And finally, wheel spin - really?

    Thanks again for the feedback.

    I know I speak for all of us when I say we look forward to your impartial review and compelling conclusions....but sub 4 secs for a family hatchback has got to be a serious statement.

    Even to those in the media who chose to ignore the facts and conclude the RS3 is a decade out of date.....if you are a father with young kids, need the 4 doors as well as a half decent boot, not forgetting 4wd to compliment our winter weather, respectable or at least justifiable fuel economy and insurance...etc etc.... but most of all an engine that is award winning year after year> and not only for its pioneering engineering masterpiece but because it goes ahead with anything on the road and is sheer class - then like most of us already appreciate in this exclusive club....who cares what 'they' think, and in the words of David Wilcox let's "Blow 'Em Away" :)

    Cheers,
    #18
  20. CarrG
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    CarrG Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Hi Elton,

    Having looked into these maps in detail recently, the 671 offer ends this weekend? It does not include RR time.
    Some APR dealers have RR some don't. Its not mapped via obd port it is ecu out bench work. I would assume you would see the TC lights flash more frequent with circa 400hp. Think Mark will be busy getting some bhp figures today. :)
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  21. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Hi Elton, all good questions, I will answer most of them in the article but I'm saving some of the info for that. As Garry says I'm off to the Dyno this morning and will have some actual figures, but after yesterday I don't really need them.

    I think the standard RS3 runs a very strong 335bhp - it's certainly comparable to my previous Evo IX 360 so I wouldn't be surprised by APR's standard dyno figures but as you say it's the increase and difference when driving that matters.

    More later!
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  22. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Oh deary me, well I'm afraid it's not good news from the dyno session at TSR Performance today :(, 2 RS3s with the APR Stage I v1.2 map saw some disappointing results. Now this isn't the end of the world so we'll keep perspective and give APR a couple of days to sort this out. I've already spoken to Gwent VW too - both RS3 owners have - so they are following up with APR for us. Rather than an article I will now do a shorter write up on here because the dyno figures and the feel of the car do not add up at all...

    Anyway for now here are dyno the results:

    [​IMG]
    The first run showed 361bhp and 402 lb ft (a gain of 26bhp & 67 lb ft over the claimed standard 335bhp 332 lb ft) although many other TTRS/RS3s have made more than than basic Audi figures when standard.

    Some TTRS and RS3 have been figured at over 360bhp and 360lb ft when standard, which brings me to the second even more worrying dyno chart:

    [​IMG]
    Just 353bhp and 384 lb ft on the second run. The other similarly APR Stage I mapped RS3 there today ran almost identical figures to this chart earlier in the day. The dyno operators comments were "that hasn't been mapped). The only real difference on his chart to this one was the lack of the small blip you see at the top of the map when the power really kicks in. My RS3 certainly looked and maybe sounded more aggressive on the rollers but again that is subjective and the figures suggest there was little difference.

    Rob from TSR Performance was of the opinion that all we had really gained was a bit of torque which would explain the feeling of more power but the facts as they stand are the gains are nowhere near the +76 bhp and +95lb ft APR claim for the 98 ron map (both RS3's had the 98 ron map)

    My current thinking is the gains are not enough to justify the £800 cost of the map, extra insurance costs and potential loss of the warranty.to give APR and Gwent VW a few days to come up with some answers otherwise for the type of gains here I will take them up on their 30 day money back offer.

    I will contrast this data with my subjective feelings about the mapped car and some performance box figures in another post because the three elements just don't add up! :confused:
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  23. klauster
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    klauster Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    how confident are you the rollers are right is my first question?
    #22
  24. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    That is a good question but TSR are a VW place and they have plenty of other mapped cars to compare against. The technician was convinced the first RS3 on the rollers hadn't been mapped. They had a Stage II+ S3 showing almost 370bhp and a TT with a big turbo showing 440bhp so there is something not right here.

    I think I know where you are coming from though because my car certainly feels different on road, but I also know how easily the mind can be fooled so I'd like the dyno data, performance box figures and subjective experience a lot closer together.
    #23
  25. klauster
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    klauster Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    well I havent dyno'd mine yet, but the map is coming off next week while i try to resolve a fuel regulator issue :gaehn: If I can get that sorted before 23rd I will be having the map re-applied, otherwise its going to have to be a refund under their 30day money back guarantee
    #24
  26. klauster
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    klauster Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    I find it hard to believe mine has increased by 30bhp.... it feels so much faster, and its not just me, but who knows
    #25
  27. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    I think it would be worth having the car dyno'd after seeing this today. Interesting I've seen the fuel pump/regulator type issues mentioned with Revo maps but not these.

    I'm not sure if I got an RS3 that just feels faster or a mapped RS3 that doesn't dyno well - but seeing 2 RS3s there making similar power makes me lean more toward the first. I've know dynos vary by a few % (even the same dyno on different days) but 50bhp and 60lb ft I don't think so.

    Even the tech today said "I'll give your car a second run to see if we can find the missing 50bhp", he said he has know cars run higher and lower figures on their dyno but never by this amount.
    #26
  28. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    And here is the video evidence if you prefer:



    I don't suppose there are too many people who would be willing to share the fact they've just spent £800 for far less than they expected but I'm willing to report the facts as they stand at the moment. Lets face it I'd have been as quick to make a big fuss about it if the dyno had shown 410+bhp and no one would be questioning the dyno then either!

    I have had much worse days with cars, the propshaft detaching itself on my Westfield is probably the scariest and most expensive!

    At the moment his is the most confusing car day, the RS3 feels faster but the figures don't add up! More video from the today later and more on the remap issues tomorrow when the measuring kit is on it. Just speaking to a friend about use of some nice straight private tarmac!
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  29. CarrG
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    CarrG Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    I guess the extra torque from the map in the rs makes it feel "quicker" but the racelogic will tell.

    Would be good to test a std rs at TSR at same time, although you say about their previous results tt, s3.

    Thanks for sharing Mark.

    Hoping they get to the bottom of this for you.
    A call from gvw seemed positive although its APR who hopefully have the answers.

    On the plus your car looks gleaming.

    :)
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  30. Mr_Freeze
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    Mr_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    APR offering 30% off at AITP.
    I'd love to pull the trigger on this, but now i'm even more convinced................not just know!
    #29
  31. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Well I've just had an e-mail from Gwent VW relaying a message from Keith at APR:

    The new v2 map will be ready for me on Tuesday, (I have the v1.2 map loaded now). I'll reserve judgement until then, though I'm still considering the refund option, the whole experience with APR has been underwhelming.

    If you do go for it Neil make sure they give you the v2 map, you can see it on the upload screen:

    [​IMG]
    #30
  32. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Garry, thanks I had to make sure the car was clean enough to show in full HD glory...or failure as it turned out!

    The guys at TSR were pretty sure that neither RS3 had the kind of "bite on the rollers" that 400+bhp cars have, and they had a few high power motors there. They did admit that they sometimes have to go in and play with the ECU settings to get cars to reach the power figures after standard mapping (they are Revo dealers and custom mappers). They were also confident a road run with the laptop or performance box attached would give a good estimate of power so we shall see.

    I think it's also that the map moves the torque swell lower down the rpm range so there is more surge at a particular point, this makes the car feel faster. If you compare the 'Standard' power on the APR dyno chart below and the TSR chart from my car today (takes a bit of doing with the different scale sizes) there really isn't much difference between them. The shape of the map on my car is nothing like the shape of the APR Stage I chart. This rings alarm bells to me, it reads like a diesel map, all surge for a few RPM but no top end urge. As I say though this is at odds with the driving experience which is certainly different.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #31
  33. CarrG
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    CarrG Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Lets see what V2 brings but its time and mileage you could do without.
    Would have been great to hear you say 400+bhp today and get your review :-(

    Agree on the RR, the vid doesn't scream turbo 400bhp.

    Thanks for the heads up, gained a valuable afternoon at the beach. :)
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  34. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    After a couple of hours of driving entertainment :racer: I can give you the 'on road dyno' results using a PerformanceBox and the Dynolicious App as a back up check, oh and a good old fashioned stopwatch too. The GoPro footage will follow later. After yesterday I'm slightly paranoid about getting a set of believable figures so I used all the equipment I have:

    Now for some good news. After the APR map the RS3 is comfortably an under 4 seconds to 60 car, still not quite as quick as APR claim but under 4 seconds for sure. :yes: Oh and launch control is changed significantly by the map and maybe not how you'd expect.

    So after 6 runs here are the average of 12 sets of (PerformanceBox and Dynolicious*) results:

    0-10mph 0.53s
    0-20mph 1.09s
    0-30mph 1.72s
    0-40 mph 2.26s
    0-50mph 2.96s
    0-60mph 3.71s

    (Note - 1ft roll out was off on the PerformanceBox (easy way to get lower figures!) but had to be on for Dynolicious - otherwise Dynolicious read 0.1/0.2 slower than the P-Box.)

    Before the map my car ran 4.2s 0-60 consistently, this is a clear difference. The Dyno results yesterday made me question if I was just feeling a difference in my mind but these results show there really is a difference.

    I also did some 'on road' Dyno testing using the modes on both devices. Again both confirmed between 390-412 bhp across the runs (average 402bhp).

    Much happier now, and the V2 software on the way. More later...
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  35. CarrG
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    CarrG Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Errr Wow!

    I'm a bit lost here..

    This is very good news.

    Thanks for taking the time to triple check!

    Roll on V2.

    :) !!!


    EDIT - Tell me more about Launch??
    #34
  36. MBK
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    MBK Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    I know, I don't understand this either. The car felt good after the map but then the Dyno disagreed on both RS3s.

    I've used the PerformanceBox (upgrading to a Vbox sport soon so easier to share data etc with phone link) on all my cars since I've had it and I trust the numbers it shows. P-Box recorded 4.2/4.3 consistently when standard.

    Launch is totally different - revs hold at just 2200 (3300 standard) but the exhaust spits and pops like an anti-lag system. I'll get the exhaust video up later. It's a proper kick in the back now too and you need to hold the wheel tighter as there is more wheel wriggle - I'd call it torque squirm (ie not as much as torque steer but you still feel it).

    Quicker times might be possible but the torque overwhelms the tyres towards the top of first gear with some wheelspin.

    The shifts seem quicker too but that may just be the rpm climbing faster.
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  37. Morells
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    Morells Active Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Some of the boys on the tt forum have said some dyno's have problems because of the dsg gear box I.e. not being able to get the true figures out of the car. But having said that I don't think this is the case as you have a load of torque and the bhp is down. The performance box readings could all be because of the huge torque increase (0-60 times). But I'm glad they have come back to you saying they are sending you a new map.

    Iv just had mine mapped as you know MBK and it feels like a totally different car when it hits 3000rpm its just a nice smooth power delivery in the first two gears its like you have stepped on a warp speed pedal. I wont talk about figures as i don't know what they are will need to get it on a dyno when I have time. I hope they sort the map out for you and that your happy with the end result.
    #36
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  38. 45bvtc
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    45bvtc Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Blimey Mark; been reading your reports and getting withdrawal symptoms; so I've just been down to the garden centre in Bluey to get some winter veggie plants (I know, but it was a great excuse to use up some Shell V-Power). Off the island and onto the Rugeley by-pass (in manual-mode of course) and Bluey is so bl##dy quick (for a pensioner anyway); I mean, 8/10-seconds of thrap and I'm fast approaching a 3-figure rate of knots; and then I'm off the pedal as there's a pretty quick Beemer, and on-coming traffic, in the way…

    Don't you/we just love this machine…

    Enjoy life Mark, this ain't no practice…
    #37
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  39. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Dont forget the dsg box can be remapped :)
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
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