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Generic stage 1 shark map on S3 DSG

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by R90 STL, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    Hi I am looking for a bit of advice or anyone's experiences of having a generic stage 1 map by shark performance as opposed to the dsg box + stage 1 map as my local dealer can't provide this option unfortunately. He states that having just the map will override the "kick down" function and I'm wondering how people find it as I quite enjoy having this feature. My other option is to save up a little but more and go for the APR map. Impatience getting the better of me as per usual

    thanks in advance for any advice that u can provide. This is the first time I have mapped a car so bare with me.
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  2. nluk100
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    nluk100 Active Member

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    The kickdown feature can not be deleted by just an engine map - you can only change this with a dsg map. I personally don't like this in M mode, which is what you should be driving it in BTW :)
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  3. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    I was told that the map will delete this function. I would rather have it than not have it tbh. I drive it in D more often than not
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  4. Dean_T
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    Dean_T Active Member

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    I'm running Revo 2+ with Revo dsg map. Kick down still works in D but not manual, which I like.
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  5. Gfermer
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    Gfermer Active Member

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    i think you should just go stage 2 + straight away and get dsg mapped :p
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  6. nluk100
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    nluk100 Active Member

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    On an engine ECU map only? What tuner told you this? AFAIK it is only possible with a gearbox map and as above you may want to keep it in D and S but have it removed in M mode. Try driving in M mode as you might find it more rewarding and the car will be more responsive if you hold it in the right gear for the road conditions (I find that in D it changes up far too early and the car is off boost, and when you use kickdown it selects second gear when fourth would of been fine!)
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  7. Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.
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    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    As mentioned,

    The gearbox functions cannot be altered with an engine ECU map, so kick down etc will be unchanged.

    Rick
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  8. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    I have also heard the power gains on just the generic map aren't as good as opposed to the DSG map same as torque figures is this right? I think what I am basically trying to find out is if I am better getting the actual DSG map instead of the generic one. I plan on keeping the car a while so I want to get it right first time. Like Gfermer said might just save up loads and go stage 2 straight away haha probably not though. My aim for this year was to get the car looking how I want it which I basically have done other than spacers and a stage 1 map. next year would be intake and turbo back..
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
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  9. nluk100
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    nluk100 Active Member

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    DSG map isn't needed for stage 1 (or even stage 2+ with the right tuner) but it will help in other areas i.e. faster shifting, more clamping pressure, higher rpm shift point.
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  10. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    sounds like DSG map is definitely going to be the better option then. I just dont want to get the generic map then regret not just waiting to get the DSG map instead. Which I think would probably be the case
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  11. nluk100
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    nluk100 Active Member

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    I think you're missing the point! These are 2 different remaps, one for the engine ECU and the other for the gearbox (DSG) ECU. If you want more power / torque etc.. you will need the engine remap. For stage 1 it is not usually recommended that you get the gearbox remapped as there are very few benefits. You can have the DSG map added later if you end up wanting to go to St2+ and beyond.

    What tuner are you thinking of using as there are still some that are unable to successfully remap a facelift S3 (with DSG) - you could end up having flat spots between gear changes! Also, does the tuner offer revised maps for adding things like exhausts, intakes etc...?
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  12. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    apologies I am totally new to the whole tuning side of car mods which is why I am trying to gather as much info as I can before I make my decision on what route to go down. To be honest my intentions of tuning when I bought the car was to go stage 2. That would be more than enough power for me.

    It was Shark performance. I don't want any flat spots but he mentioned something about him being able to install a "patch". I guess that would override the flat spots? The benefit of the APR map is that it is switchable, I would get dyno time included in the price and any future maps wouldn't cost me anything whereas shark would. It was merely the price of the Shark map that grabbed my interest and a lot of guys I know have the Shark map and rate it but they are all manuals
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
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  13. nluk100
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    nluk100 Active Member

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    If it was a choice of Shark vs APR then I would go with Shark all day long. You will have no lag issues with Shark either (I can't comment on APR). I had an APR map on a previous car but I just left it on the same setting all the time. I think Shark offer a handheld unit to remove the map?
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  14. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    that is what I have narrowed it down to. My mate keeps saying for me to go APR because of the switchable map but like that I probably wouldn't use that at all. I got my map read etc and it wasn't until I found out about it removing the kick down function and that there was a dsg map available (I assumed that is what I was getting) that I would do some more research first
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  15. Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.
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    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    I will try and simplify:

    DSG gearbox has a torque limiter. Even on a Stage 1 you will hit this torque limiter. To over come this torque limiter properly you need to remap the gearbox ECU. You can also alter the shift points etc when this is done.

    There is another way to overcome this torque limiter, which is to trick the ECU into thinking it is making less torque than it actually is. This works fine on stage 1. This is what APR do, and Shark can too. Despite what APR and the like claim, this way isn't as good as actually remapping the box, as the gearbox ECU limits the pressure supplied to the clutch due to receiving a false signal. Having said that, on stage 1 tunes it's fine and the difference between the two methods isn't noticeable.

    Rick
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  16. Brodster
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    Brodster Shark Performance In Scotland Site Sponsor

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    Got it Rik. I was trying to explain in lames terms exactly what youve said so I wont say it al lagain but add afew other bit n pieces

    The problem is the torque limitation inside the DSG control unit. When the ECU calculates that its torque output is 370Nm, the DSG gearbox sends a torque reduction request to the ECU.

    There are two ways to get around this problem. One is to scale down the torque value ECU is showing, other is to remap the DSG controller as well.

    Reprogramming the DSG has other added benefits as well. The force upshift rpm is set to 6700rpm (where DSG will upshift even when you're in manual mode), this cannot be bypassed without a DSG remap. Also the Shark DSG remap has slightly altered shiftpoints when car is in D, so the car wont try to be in 6th gear at 30mph and 1300rpms.

    Other tuners have used this scaling method for a while. Its not ideal, since the DSG wont see the correct torque value but a downscaled one, and can sometimes use less clutch clamping pressure than it should.
    When Shark developed the S3 remap for S-tronic, customers thought the gains were good and clearly noticeable, but afew customers were underwhelmed by the gains. Due to this feedback, we have now added this "patch" to our S3 S-tronic engine software which allows the full potential of the Stage1/2/3 remap to be experienced.
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  17. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    thanks guys. i had misunderstood what Mark had told me on Sunday. Again down to my lack of knowledge in the tuning field. All sorted and booked in for stage 1 shark map on saturday, cant wait!
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  18. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    I can personally vouch for all the above as I went through this exact scenario at Shark HQ with my car.
    For me personally I had the DSG mapped too, BUT and please understand this is for me, this worked really well.
    I wanted it right from the start however I also wanted all the things that mapped DSG gives me.
    Proper manual mode with no kick down at all; Improved gear change's so it does not sit in 6th at 30mph which is crazy. I spend a lot of time on Nottingham's ring road and need this! lol.
    Although only Stage 1, I am still blown away by the performance of my car with it being stupidly fast and the DSG is awesome.
    Manual mode is great now with no kick down messing things up. The increased rev limit is not necessary though from the engine map, I never reach it to worry about it.
    Having the DSG done is down to what you want from the gearbox. I have benefitted from the gear change limits amongst other things.
    Suffice to say, enjoy it when its done!
    #18
  19. R90 STL
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    R90 STL Active Member

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    I hope the map is even half as good as people say it is. begin the countdown! thanks again for all your advice. I can put my mind at ease
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