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GATSO Speeding and what to do

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by jcb, Feb 9, 2007.

  1. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    Meant to put this in a new thread so here it is
    Sorry this is long but I have read more posts and information in the last 24 hours than I ever did at school and university.

    I received a NIP (Notice of Intended Prosecution) for doing 39 in a 30. It was a fixed Gatso.
    On the NIP they have a link to a website showing the photos, the certificate or calibration, the reason for the gatso siting and its official justification including photos of the site.

    I am writing this as there appears to be an awful lot of cr@p and urban myth about what you can and can't get away with.
    As I see it there are only a few reasons you will get away without the fine and points.

    1) No offence committed - camera is inaccurate (proving that is tricky)
    2) You weren't driving - (proving this is easier)
    3) The camera is unlawfully sited or operated (tricky)
    4) They don't send you the NIP within 17 days (14 plus 3 days leaway for post) of the offence
    5) The method in which they collect the evidence is unlawful



    1) I am pretty sure that I was doing between 30-35, I checked both the speedo and the GPS indicated speed on my Origin B2. In which case I was under the buffer zone of 10%+2 (that is my second arguement but more difficult to prove)

    2) I was the only person in the car and am the only person on the insurance. pretty hard to deny I was driving without lying.

    3) they have provided me with all the evidence that the camera is lawfully sited and that it has been calibrated. My problem here is that this camera was calibrated in July 2006. By all accounts a "large" number of cameras are require some repair to calibrate them effectively, this fact throws into doubt the accuracy of all subsequent measurements. in short, the calibration certificcate you should be interested in is the next one. still very difficult to prove and time consuming=expensive.

    4) I got the NIP 6 days after the alleged offence

    5) having trawled the web and even requested some extra info from one of the kind chaps on here, in my opinion your best defence is the PACE submission form on the PePiPoo website.

    The premise is that the NIP and request for identity of the driver is in fact a statement. The law says that any statement that is used in evidence against you must be obtained under caution (the old "you have the right to blahblahh and anything you say may be used in evidence against you" routine).
    Since the NIP is just mailed to you and you have received no caution, the evidence (i.e. my telling them I was the driver) CANNOT be legally used against you. Their case relies on this.

    I have sent the dowloaded PACE form off and will wait and see

    From the www.Pepipoo.com website
    "After you send a PACE statement, the police will probably take one of the following approaches:
    They will write or phone you saying you MUST fill the form in or you will be prosecuted for failing to provide the information required by Section 172 Road Traffic Act 1988. Although some partnerships have tried, to date, we are not aware of anyone who has been successfully prosecuted for this, after they submitted a PACE statement - see dpp v Jones.
    You may receive a Conditional offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and reminders.
    In either case, if you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence until you receive a summons.

    Keep copies of everything and if they phone you, say something like: "As I have not yet seen the evidence relating to the alleged offence including the full session video recording, it would be unreasonable in the circumstances to expect me to answer any questions". Any additional questioning should be answered with "no comment". If they leave an answer machine message, record a copy and keep it in a safe place.

    They have 6 months from the date of offence to do this, so for speeding 6 months from date you were flashed + another 28 days for the S172. You may not receive the papers until after this date"

    If they don't get the evidence within 6 months it times out and goes away

    my opinion:
    Do your homework, use the web and work within the law.
    Do not ignore the NIP

    will update before i get sent down....
    #1
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  3. Aldo
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    Aldo Active Member

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    Be interesting to see the reply thery give you :)
    #2
  4. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    There's an EU ruling this month on whether the PACE statement can be used as a valid defence, as it's a grey area at the moment. Basically the whole premise of UK law is violated by the use of speed camera's and mobile traps i.e. you are guilty by association to the vehicle and you are not cautioned according to PACE before you are charged with a criminal offence.
    I honestly don't know how they are allowed to implement this process and get away with it. If they interviewed a rapist or paedophile without a caution and then used the evidence gained in court, the case would be thrown out. It really does beggar belief that the British motorist is treated with less respect and has less rights than a rapist or kiddly fiddler. We are just an easy target with absolutely no rights whatsoever. How can you be charged with a criminal offence without being able to see the evidence, unless you plead not guilty?
    The consensus on PePiPoo is really for every NIP to be challenged and use the maximum amount of time you are allowed to delay proceedings as much as possible.
    The EU ruling should then clarify what proceedure is legal/illegal and we'll be in a better position to know what to do in these cases.
    #3
  5. Defratos
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    Defratos You’re Dethpicable!!

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    My brother just got an NIP, does this procedure still work?
    #4
  6. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    Nothing is guaranteed to work, but by delaying the whole process and making them work for their money you are keeping your options open and there's a chance they'll **** up somewhere.
    But you must do everything within the timeframes stated so they have no opportunity to charge you with anything else.
    Basically if every NIP issued was disputed their system would implode, which would be nice.
    #5
  7. Andyuk911
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    Andyuk911 New Member

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    JCB have a read on Pistonheads, lots of info
    #6
  8. Andyuk911
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    Andyuk911 New Member

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    update to s172

    Section 172 RTA 88 was replaced with that contained in Section 21 RTA 91.

    Sub Section 7 states that such a notice may be served by post.

    Section 7 Interpretation Act 1978 defines under law what served means:


    "Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used)the, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properley addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of the post."
    #7
  9. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    yes but the point is I HAVE provided the info they have asked for and am not in breach of S172.
    The issue is that they are not leaglly able to use that against me without a caution...or at least that is the premise.

    Well it's too late now anyway, I have sent it!
    Watch this space
    #8
  10. Onlyme
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    Onlyme Member

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    [Feb 9, 2007]
    Read the other weekin sunday paper and this was from majorstrate that if you get flashed by 3 cameras in one day what you need to do is say that it was one complete journey and that you did not stop at all that way you only get 3 points for the first camera, if you say you stopped and then continued with your journey you will get points for the second camera and third ect, his advice was state that it was one complete journey and that you did not stop.
    #9
  11. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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  12. Aldo
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    Aldo Active Member

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    [Feb 11, 2007]
    They will still do you the 3 times though?
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  13. Vron
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    [Feb 11, 2007]
    10% + 2mph is an urban myth, I g0t done at 78 by a speed camera van on the hard shoulder of the M180, didn't even worry at the time when I went past then the NIP arrived. When I disputed it I was told to be clocked at 78 my speedo would have been showing at least 80 so get stuffed basically. 3pts and £60.
    #12
  14. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 11, 2007]
    There are many urban myths to do with speeding. Most stem from the good old days when a proper traffic cop had to actually pull you over.
    Those days are gone unfortunately and with the obsession with speeding, the technology available and the successful perversion of the cause of justice that stems from NIP's and FP's (guilty until proven innocent) you don't have a leg to stand on.
    #13

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