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Full blown racing start in mapped S3

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by siu00adg, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. siu00adg
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    siu00adg Member

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    [Apr 18, 2008]
    I was driving home from work at about half 11pm tonight, the road was emtpy and I was at some lights, so for the first time in the S3 I decided to really cain it from a standing start... OMFG! I've never experienced such savagery! I couldn't believe how well it hooked up!, I turned off ESP, built the revs up to 4k, dropped the clutch and floored it, all four wheels span for a sec (or at least the front two, but I think all four) and wooosh! I was red lining it in 2nd before I knew it!

    Just thought I'd share that with you all, I'm still shocked how ridiculously fast it hooks up from a standing start! :) Get it right and I can't see much living with a remapped S3 in the traffic light GP!
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  3. Boydie
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    Boydie Guest

    [Apr 19, 2008]
    and you have only done this now?? lol

    It was probably the back wheels going at it because, as far as I know, when you floor it, the majority of the power in quattro's is delivered to the back

    Most of the time, quattros are FWD for economy - correct me if I am wrong please
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  4. a3norwich
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    a3norwich Not anymore - Back 2 BMW (shh)

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    No more than 50% goes to the rear on a [standard] haldex equipped car.
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  5. siu00adg
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    siu00adg Member

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    Obviously I've thrashed the pants off it before, but never from a standing start, racing starts aren't ideal for the longevity of the clutch!
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  6. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    I suspect it was the front wheels...
    Normally, you give it beans, the engine power is up, the weight moves backwards unloading the front wheels, the front wheels slip, the Haldex then dumps as much as it can to the rear (up to 50%...no more) and then you are off.
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  7. Randomjim
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    Randomjim Active Member

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    My mate took me out in his s3 the other day and i was shocked by the off the line acceleration. So much grip. I was also suprised how much you could hear the turbo for a standard car.
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  8. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    welcome to "trashing" S3 territory...lolol The more I drive it the more I trash it (within reason)...

    No wonder these I powered cars develop faults... we drive like lunatics...lolol... well no really but because we are well insulated from the feedback/sense of speed we, or should I say I, tend to rev it a bir more than I would normally do...


    Pedro
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  9. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    Sounds fun i can't seem to get the FULL BLOODED launch? it either bogg's down or goes well , but not well enough......maybe i'm not being aggressive enough?

    What do you mean by droping the clutch?

    Talk us through it mate , so i don't end up sitting there with my clutch in bit's! LOL

    p
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  10. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    I'm a wuss as I would never do this to my car until I'm ready to sell/px it, always worried something will go bang !! :(

    Sounds amazing though, I always used to wait until I'd grabbed a handful of 2nd before I gave it any beans with the FWD TT will have to make that 3rd.
    #9
  11. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 19, 2008]
    If the car is under warranty, what's the risk?

    Frying the clutch aside...if something lets go, and you haven't over-revved it or blown it up with too much boost...it's covered.

    I always think that if you warm the car up properly/ cool it down properly, and you can't blow it up in the first 3 years...it's going to be fine.
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  12. Boydie
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    Boydie Guest

    [Apr 19, 2008]
    whats the point in having a sporty car and not giving it a bit the odd time

    I usually do not but I felt spirited today and enjoyed myself!
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  13. L60N
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    L60N Guest

    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Phantom, if its bogging down you dont have the revs or ESP off.

    I havn't done a full on proper launch yet, maybe I feel its a bit unfair to the car as its still very new.

    I might just get a few under the belt in france though :rockwoot:
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  14. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    I do turn the ESP off.

    I'm either being to restrained or i'm launching wrong.

    Thats why i asked to be talked through it in lamans turms hehehe.

    p
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  15. L60N
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    L60N Guest

    [Apr 20, 2008]
    In laymans terms it would be.

    Rev it to 4000rpm. then lift off the clutch in an instant while burrying hte accelerator.

    Kinda feels like your trying to break it.. hahaha
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  16. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    I'm scared LOL

    p
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  17. james0808
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    james0808 Active Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Sounds like you had fun.
    There is quite alot of cars out there that can live with a remapped S3 in the traffic light GP.Just got to find someone who wants to play.
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  18. RichC
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    RichC RAC 500W

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    This is not something i have ever been able to do properly with my current car with it being FWD, the wheels just spin with the torque. I dont think ill be trying it straight away with the S3 either, i think ill be too scared initially, lol.

    Rich
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  19. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    What's the current car Rich?

    200bhp+ is a waste of time in a FWD car. Got all these lads I work with have Focus STs or Astra VXRs and I wouldn't bother wasting my money on them.

    4WD is awesome!
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  20. RichC
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    RichC RAC 500W

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    My current car is a Fiat Grande Punto 1.9 Sporting. Its diesel, 130bhp as standard and group 6 insurance which was good because of my age. Then i started modifying it and now its around 170-180bhp and 260-270lb-ft of torque. Its a beautiful car imo, i love it, but ive reached the end of the road with it. I would have to look at fitting an LSD to get anything more.

    Exactly, i like some of those cars but torque steer is becoming more and more of a problem with a lot of hot hatches and it lends itself to more brown trouser moments, which i dont want, lol.

    Rich
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  21. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Oh yes you did say what it was in the other thread.

    I have been away for a while and have missed fast cars, but the other day I was in my mates previous gen cupra R and he was wheel spinning like mad and I just thought, what's the point!?
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  22. RichC
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    RichC RAC 500W

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Thats right, a reasonable amount of power and no way of getting it down, its pretty pointless. The only thing its good for is bragging, and where does that get you.

    Rich
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  23. A4CAB
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    A4CAB Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    My standard S3 at Santa Pod vs M3 CSL :)

    In my experience with a good start very little can keep up with the S3 from 0-40 with the more powerful cars starting to see a slight advantage from about 70 onwards.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY3jLkCgJO0
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  24. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    4WD at it's best! :yahoo:
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  25. Nutkins
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    Nutkins Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    I wouldn't say a lot of power in a front wheel drive car is totally pointless. Yes you can only get so much power down in the traffic light GP, but once you're moving it's great for overtaking etc. And you're not going to be spinning the wheels at 60 in third overtaking someone, even with a lot of power going through the front.
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  26. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    No you're right, but to gain any ground at low speeds results in spin. And if you aren't interested in that then you might as well get a diesel with some real overtaking power!
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  27. RichC
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    RichC RAC 500W

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Obviously its not totally pointless, i chose the wrong word. It is limited though. I have managed to spin the wheels of my car in 4th, albeit in the wet. BHP isnt the issue as such anyway, its the torque.

    I love my current car for its overtaking ability, if i am cruising on the motorway in 6th i can put my foot down and it will still get up and go, its great.

    I only hope that the S3 can deliver in the same way, im in very little doubt that it wont.

    Rich
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  28. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    This is a bit of a poinntless and uninformed statement, in my view.

    200 BHP if fine...500 BHP is fine...if the torque isn't too high for the grip.
    It's not the power that breaks traction...it's the torque.

    A turbo'd car with 200 BHP will break traction easier than a NA car with the same power (normally) as the torque comes in more abruptly with the turbo car, breaking traction.

    I have a 200 BHP NA Golf...and traction isn't an issue off the line as long as you don't drive like a clot.

    However, a turbo'd A3/Golf with 200 BHP is far easier to get the wheels spinning...same with the VXR/ST.



    But there is many types of 4WD...some of which are more 'awesome' than the other.
    FWD biased 4WD is fine...but isn't as good at getting off the line as RWD biased 4WD...and it will always understeer when pushed.

    Although 4WD is good...it's not always great. Some are...some are not.
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  29. siu00adg
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    siu00adg Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    had a play with an M5 on the motorway today, I was absolutely shocked that he couldn't drop me! I'm not saying my car is as quick as an M5 or anything, but I'm very happy to report the S3 did much better than I would have thought! Such a quick car, and its a 3 door hatch!! Very pleased :)
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  30. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Ok yes you're right, it's the torque, hence me saying a diesel would be better for overtaking. But generally (I use that word VERY loosely) high HP means high torque also. And yes you can drive a FWD car with power without loosing grip but if you really want to use your car to the max then FWD means you'll loose a lot of power and get nowhere. And why does anyone buy a 200bhp/200lb/ft plus car if they have no intention of putting their foot down once in a while?

    But my examples were car with over 200bhp, which is my point. Another example being the new focus RS. 280-300bhp (and therefore high torque level - unknown at this time) through the front wheels. I don't care what sort of special LSD you fit, straight line from standstill you're going to spin the wheels. And most people who buy an RS will be doing those TLGPs regularly.

    I can see a bit debate starting here over the rights and wrongs of TLGPs! lol

    But of course.
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  31. RichC
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    RichC RAC 500W

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    I dare say your not wrong, lol.

    Rich
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  32. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    Indeed...but the NA vs FI still pays a part in the relationship.

    FI the high torque is low down - say 2000RPM upwards...whereas on a NA car, it can be up at 5000 RPM+...so as the revs rise, the torque doesn't hit like a sledgehammer, which gives the tyres a fighting chance.

    Diesels are a nightmare!
    Lots of grip off the line...but as soon as boost hits, wheelspin.
    Great once rolling though...effortless overtaking due to oodles of low down torque.


    But...modern TC systems are good...and modern ECUs limit boost in low gears to give the ham-footed driver a chance of a clean get-away.
    It takes little skill to get modern 250 BHP FWD cars off the line swiftly...of course you still get wheelspin...but without the electronic aids, your average Joe would sit there in a rubber smokescreen.

    Modern tyre compounds and suspension set-ups also mean 200 BHP+ and high torque is easier to deploy than ever before. That's progress...


    I disagree...
    A talented chassis, TC and boost limits (maybe even a launch control system) will make that car a breeze to get off the line with minimal skill.
    Of course, those with no driving skill or machanical sympathy will still be able to make a pigs ear of it...but I'll wager as standard, it pulls from a standing start very well indeed.

    I have a friend with a 370 BHP Focus RS...and that thing gets off the line like you wouldn't believe.
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  33. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    I'm sorry but no matter what aids or how good the driver or how much power, trying to put it down to the ground through the front wheels is going to result in wheel spin unless you hold back on the power, in which case there's no point having the power in the first place (at those speeds). And TC just holds back power also. Then try and do that whilst also trying to go around a corner for instance and you're in for some real fun!
    #32
  34. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 20, 2008]
    That was never in doubt...
    You either brake a calliper (waste power), limit the boost (make less power) or retard the timing / cut the fuelling (make less power) but as you say...you need to do something...usually in 1st and 2nd gears.

    The point is...once rolling (the ABS sensors verify this) you don't need to hold back...so once you get past 30ft...you can start taking off the limitsd and use the full power.

    As for going round a corner...I can assure you, I'd take a decent chassis with a LSD (Focus RS) over a meadiocre chassis with an indifferent 4WD system every day of the week, for driving pleasure.

    Different ways of achiving the same thing?
    I think so...some better than others...depending on what the benchmarks are.

    At the end of the day, the old 200BHP theoretical limit has long since gone...
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  35. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 21, 2008]
    Well yes of course some FWDs will be better than some 4WDs on the bends. But generally speaking putting power down will cause the inside wheel to slip whilst turning, especially without a LSD. Which means you're not getting the best out of the engine and your car doesn't handle perfectly.

    I don't want to get into a big debate over this but my main case was about those low speed accelerations, in which case I'm right: You can't get the power down so what's the point?

    I use the 200bhp benchmark because I had a 200bhp car (a type-r, which is all power and not much torque as you'll know) and it just annoyed me.
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  36. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2008]
    I wasn't aware that using all the power was a pre-requisite of getting a fast launch or fast cornering?
    In my view...you don't need to use all the power...you need to use enough to give a little slip at the tyres and enough not to bog down, and no more...so whether you do it manually, or the electronics do it...does it matter?

    Handling...it's completely different.
    Far to divers a subject to say one is 'better' than the other.
    There are good FWD cars and lots of poor ones.
    Same with 4WD.


    The point is, if you get as fast a launch as the car is capable of...does it matter if you aren't using all the throttle?
    Throttle is linear, not digital...you don't need to use it all like a switch.

    All I'm saying is that your original comment:

    Is just not true.
    There are too many variables.


    Different drivers, I suppose.
    I loved mine. 200 BHP easy to use...not so great in the wet, off the line...but as long as you use the throttle like a throttle and not a switch, it was fine.
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  37. rodenal
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    rodenal Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2008]

    This is what really really annoys me about motoring magazine reviews on cars like the astra vxr and previously the 147 GTA, claiming the have far too much torque steer etc -having driven both cars i wondered what the hell they were on about, as if you use the throttle sensibly and try to judge what grip is available at the time they're both fine, and pretty dam quick.

    Use it like an on off switch and you'll not only look silly, but you'll get nowhere, and worse than that you'll then go into an older car without the electronic aids and probably lift off oversteer into a ditch.
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  38. Staz
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    [Apr 21, 2008]
    It's not! But if you could use all the power then your launches and cornering would be faster wouldn't they? That's my whole point.

    I will edit my original statement then:

    200bhp+ is a waste of time in a FWD car. Got all these lads I work with have Focus STs or Astra VXRs and I wouldn't bother wasting my money on them.

    4WD is awesome!

    -in my opinion.
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  39. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2008]
    But that's too big a statement to quantify...

    Using 120 BHP of the available power and getting 5% tyre slip...then starting to feed in the remaining 80 BHP of the available 200, isn't going to make the car any faster.

    For that, you need to find more mechanical grip...
    Better chassis, better suspension, better tyres, better road surface.
    So, yes. If you could use all the power it would be faster - but that would involve re-engineering the car and the road surface.
    That's not going to happen...
    So fully utilising the grip vs power is what's needed...excess power isn't required until mechanical grip exceeds engine power.

    To use all the power, of every car...the suspension technology/tyre technology etc just isn't there...
    Cutting edge competition cars use electronics (where permitted) to get modern high performance cars off the line, and round bends...

    There is only a finite amount of grip available...and short of fitting 18" wide, soft compound drag slicks, and re-surfacing the UKs roads with high grip tarmac, that's the way it's going to be.



    You pick any car you like and it'll have traction issues somewhere along the line.


    And to be fair, cornering has little to do with power...


    That's fine...
    But don't be surprised when people counter your opinion with fact, that gives examples of 200BHP+ not being a waste of time in a FWD car.
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  40. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 21, 2008]
    Read what I last wrote and then read your direct reply to that. It's not even relevent. I was talking hypothetically.

    But anyway, if you didn't have the tyre slip in the first place then you'd be able to feed in more power wouldn't you?!

    Yes and when there're 4 driven wheels you can put more power down to the road (whatever the surface).


    Yeah and FWD cars will have their issues earlier in that line.

    More to do with the steering I guess. But if you want to go around a bend quicker, especially on the exit, you need to put power down, and with 4WD you can put more down.

    All of my statements are generalisations. And I have admitted that the abilities of different cars vary. The basic fact is 4WD is better than FWD. If you were to take 2 identical cars and then fit the 2 different drivetrains then the 4WD would be the better. As long as it's set up properly.

    I'm not suprised don't worry. But it's pretty obvious it was my own opinion rather than fact wasn't it? And my opinion comes from experience of owning both FWD and 4WD cars, and of course being a passenger. And I'm here on this forum partly to give my opinion. And I stand by what I said.
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  41. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2008]
    Whatever...
    Seems to me you make flippant comments...then don't like someone pointing out inaccuracies.
    Hypothetical or not.


    That's not what I'm getting at...it's been proven time and time again by people cleverer than you and I, that the fastest acceleration is when a tyre is slipping around 5%.
    Competition TC systems don't have total grip...they require some slip...F1, WRC etc...cars or bikes...some slip is required/accepted.
    I don't know why...but that seems to be the way it is.
    It may be to do wirth nursing the clutch/gearbox/driveshafts.

    My comments were based around the requirement of a few % slip, to get the best launch. Very few cars can take a hard (clutch dropped at 5000RPM) launch and hook up perfectly - 4WD or otherwise.
    If you know of one, please let me know...



    Very true.
    But you have to counter this by power actually transmitted to the tarmac.

    A 200 BHP 4WD car loosing 60BHP in losses (8L S3 for example) is only putting 140 BHP to the road. That 140 BHP - assuming a perfect, no tyre slip, no clutch slip launch - is actually making the car go forwards.
    The rest is lost.

    A 200 BHP FWD car loosing 45 BHP in losses and using TC to give 5% slip, may be using 90% of it's available 155 BHP to give good launches with a 10% reserve for slip...140 BHP!

    So, you may not actually be putting any more power to the road than a FWD car...
    Then it becomes swings and roundabouts...more weight, clutch torture and mechanical component failure with 4WD - but a quicker real world 0-60ft....vs lighter weight, less brutal launch of FWD.


    OK...I'm being pedantic...but cornering and traction are different entities entirely....especially where wet roads are concerned.

    Fast cornering - that is carring huge corner speed - is simply mechanical grip vs physics.
    4WD cars don't corner any faster than FWD or RWD.


    Powering out of a corner is indeed the realm of 4WD (or RWD), if you are speaking about hooking up full throttle before the apex and allowing the car to push itself through the bend - assuming the chassis is set up for it.
    Sadly, in the case of most road goinfg Audis (for example) it isn't as they don't have enough mechanical grip at the front to allow the rear to push through...so the car will understeer.

    With a well set up chassis...an Evo/911 etc...you will get the rear to arc out, straightening the steering angle, and powering you out with the steering wheels straight ahead.

    To do this on a FWD car you need to have lots of grip (normally involving an LSD of some type) and have some form of 'rough' tactic to get the rear to pivot (lift off oversteer, for example...or trail braking)


    You probably thing I'm just out for an argument...I'm not.
    I'm merely posting an alternative view...based on slightly different thinking, reserach and lots of experience.

    I don't believe it's possible to make a statement saying "The basic fact is 4WD is better than FWD. If you were to take 2 identical cars and then fit the 2 different drivetrains then the 4WD would be the better. As long as it's set up properly"

    4WD may be easier for more people to drive faster...but better?
    It's just not that simple.

    4WD is 'better' at some things - but there are costs (weight, complexity, wear etc)
    FWD can be better at others...why is an Integra Type-R a better drivers car than an 8L S3 when the S3 has 4WD and more power?

    The set up is critical...I agree.
    But the set up for 4WD differs vastly from that of a FWD car...that optimise them both...and you end up back at status quo. Swings and roundabouts.


    No, it wasn't...
    This part:
    In my view cannot be stated as black and white as that.

    As I said...I'm not out for an argument...but if you'd spent enough time setting up car chassis, playing with ATB/LSDs, TC/Launch Control systems, suspension geometry & settings etc you'd be amazed what is possible from an 'inferior' FWD car.

    Your opinion is yours...but the facts are there...FWD is not always inferior.
    It's all swings and roundabouts.
    #40

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