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Front Mount Or Not To Front Mount

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by scoobyra, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. scoobyra
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    scoobyra It's not f@cking ORANGE!!!!!

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    Ive been toying with the idea of getting a front mount intercooler.
    Anyone got any info/thoughts on this.
    #1
  2. Shy19s
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    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

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    Yea, but make it stealth, satin black spray... i'd say go bigger turbo with it and if your doing that.. get urself some injectors and a FPR too, get it remapped.. done. Not really worth moddin without a remap on turbo cars.. correct me if im wrong?
    #2
  3. A3_Turbo
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    A3_Turbo Swaying towards IHI....

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    Depends what you want to do with the car really?

    I had to frount mount mine or i wouldnt make the power i wanted, if you just intend to go for a stage 1 map i dont see the point as a FMIC is very costly.

    J
    #3
  4. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Member

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    What one of these [​IMG] not to much of a gain on s3,having twin i/c's ,better on a modded a3,cheers Andy
    #4
  5. Bellic
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    Bellic Member

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    what fmic is that andy id like one of those?
    #5
  6. Beenie
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    Beenie Member

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    I've also thought about getting a FMIC, is much cutting of the car needed?
    #6
  7. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    Small difference between spending 200-300 on an FMIC than spending 4-5-6k on a turbo conversion:whistle2:
    #7
  8. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    FMIC will keep boost pressures cooler than the twin side mounts, they do flow alright for a standard car tho but any extra cooling is good, so worth the money Id say. Plus its there should you modify the engine further at a later date.

    What cutting you have to do will depend on the kit you buy
    #8
  9. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    so benefits to a standard or remapped car are? ........as a consequence of the cooler air?
    #9
  10. grathies
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    grathies More Points Than Portsmouth FC

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    Well your boost will be better cooled, so you will maintain peak BHP for longer due to less heat soak

    Probably gonna be more noticable if the cars used for very hard driving on a track, or during hot weather
    #10
  11. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    FMIC is really needed if you are cranking the boost right up on a K04...going to a big turbo means you do less work (with the compressor) to get the same boost, so you don't generate the heat, so you don't need an FMIC.

    FMIC won't add any power on a K04...nothing.
    What it will do, is allow your engine to make as much power as it can, based on the map, by heatsoaking less and doing a better job of cooling the inlet charge (less chance of the ECU pulling the timing to protect the engine)

    Get a decent FMIC and no cutting is required at all...
    Some are happy to cut...some not.
    I'm not comfortable cutting - especially the re-enforcing bar - to get a FMIC to fit...crash protection is there for a reason!

    A decent FMIC will allow you run more boost - giving more torque midrange - and still keep the top end power without heatsoaking...if that's what you want.

    spraying black is good...but it'll flake off...you really want it anodising black.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Behind there, there is a black anodised Star Performance FMIC (made by Forge) with a black anodised bespoke Forge made SMIC (like a Mk4 Golf uprated SMIC, but modified to fit an S3) and bespoke pipework.

    Worked a treat...1.98 bar boost (over what the MAP sensor can measure) making 332 lb-ft and holding 1.3 bar+ by the limiter...with no heatsoak. No more than 25-30 degrees inklet charge temperatures even on the dyno.

    ...and the best bit?
    Nobody knew it was there...no Chav 'look at me' bling...just understated performance. :lmfao:
    #11
  12. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    im not bothered then.... was thinking about it but never gonna upgrade the engine any further......track days will amount to one hand full in my time with the car....and the UK has ***** weather 80% of the time...cheers Ryan:anbet::lmfao:
    #12
  13. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I would check your inlet charge temps.
    Even with a simple re-map, I was seeing 70+ degrees at the inlet manifold...which to me, is far too high...so even with a basic remap, you will benefit from better cooling, be it a FMIC or better SMICs.

    You'll find that on std SMICs you'll make the power once...then less and less after every run...
    With an FMIC you make the same every run.

    This is road or track...
    #13
  14. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    So based on the average journey, the more i use the boost, the less i will essentially get every time? ...also can i check the inlet temp using the climate?
    #14
  15. eagle_s3
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    eagle_s3 Member

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    How difficult was the bespoke fitting of the SMIC Glen?

    Is there a saving to be had by making use of upgraded SMIC?

    Was reading some old forum post that had a list of all the engine things that you did along with the suspension. Very nice list, but I'm sure you've been told that a lot.
    #15
  16. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    whats the fmic cost for the star model roughly?
    #16
  17. ANDYTQ
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    ANDYTQ Member

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    A one off from concept racing, nr hereford,a genuine racing history outfit,not a mickey mouse company,fantastic quality of work and it works well.
    #17
  18. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Yeah...pretty much.

    The more boost you use, the hotter things get.

    For tuning:
    More boost at the peak point = more torque...but more heat in the system...more heat + less efficient ICs mean less proportional gains at the top end, more heatsoak etc.
    So, usually lots of torque gained for little top end.

    There is a point at which turning up the boost doesn't net you the gains you expect because things get too hot that the ECU protects the engine by pulling the timing.


    Don't know...
    I used VAG Com.
    #18
  19. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Looks like a nice piece of work.
    #19
  20. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Can't remember...£500 ish I think, with hoses and clamps.
    Not even sure if he still offers them.

    Mine was the first Star had done...it worked well. But this was years ago...like 2002 or so.
    #20
  21. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Nothing major...
    You need to get the bumper off and see what you have. Most things can be made to work with enough bends, straight lengths, hoses and clamps...but it may not be neat or leak-proof.
    Ideally, mock it up then have pipework welded up to suit...like Andy's or mine.

    Personally, I'd look for the minimum of joints as you minimise failure points and leak paths.

    Not really...
    The SMIC doesn't seem to be as efficient as a decent FMIC.
    I had mine lead-lag (SMIC and FMIC) as I wanted maximum cooling, no structural cutting, and wanted to free up the space from the passenger SMIC for fitting a 4" duct to the airbox.
    It was the iseal solution all round...not the cheapest, but effective none the less.


    It was a well rounded set-up.
    Everything worked well...I was pleased with it. So, thanks for the positive comments.

    I miss the S3.
    #21
  22. zertek2k
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    zertek2k Member

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    I am not sur ehow effective a FMIC would be for you guys in the UK as I dont think temps get that high anyway? I have a well decent sized FMIC on mine but if you want any form of performance and decent intake temps over here in AUS then you need one as we are dealing with 40 degree celsius days over here. The difference it makes is massive on our cars over here. I have attached a pic of mine sorry about the size of th epic. Not much cutting was needed for mine but I am getting the piping re done as I had to cut the brown plastic taht held the mesh and fog lights. I want to mesh the side vents to cover the piping and hopefully get my fog lights back in.

    [​IMG]
    #22
  23. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    It's not ambient temperature that you should be concerned with...it's the charge air temperature after the compressor.

    Of course, the hotter the air going past the air filter, the hotter the charge air is likely to be...but the more boost you run on a K04, the harder the compressor has to work, and the hotter your inlet charge will be, at the inlet manifold.

    You could ingest 50 degree C ambient air...and if you had a highly afficient IC, then 20 degrees could be achieved at the engine even with a highly strung K04 running 1.8 bar+ boost...but that's unlikely to ever happen with IC efficiency being what it is.

    The main aim is to get the air as cool as possible at the inlet manifold - or more specifically, in the combustion chambers. So, since the turbo adds most of the heat - not ambient - an efficient IC (FMIC or otherwise) is a good move.
    A FMIC just makes it easier in the real world to get the inlet air cooler...reagadless of ambient.

    Of course, down under, when you are running hight boost, ingesting 40 degree C air, and having 'hot' air passing the IC...you have a somewhat harder job than we do in the Uk.
    The principle is the same though...

    Improve the IC efficiency...more air passing over a more efficient IC core = lower inlet charge temperatures.
    Allowing the engine to breath cold air (not hot air from under the bonnet from an open cone filter) just makes this process easier, and a little more efficient.

    Best of all:
    Cold air into the engine...
    Very efficient IC/ICs...
    Cold ambient air...

    My advice:
    A sealed inlet system, lots of efficient ICs and move to Northern Scotland! :laugh:
    Sorted!
    #23
  24. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    but then we'd be mingling with the Scottish? wheres the upside:lmfao:

    Cheers Glen, im gonna have a look behind the bumper in the summer.... and maybe gauge from my driving style whether i would benefit as much between now and then...if i drive like an old man when the appeal of the remap goes... then wont need it.... it does look like a pretty simple job, just a bit of a ball ache getting the pipes made up etc
    #24
  25. NM3
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    NM3 New Member

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    Interesting that you say a FMIC won't add any power (on a KO4). I have no experience with a KO4, but I dynoed before/after fitting a FMIC to a KO3S and it made 18 bhp difference. So, if it had the effect of lowering inlet charge temps, increasing boost etc, does that not equate to more power? Is your defintion of 'power' here a bit of word play? ie is it 'added' power or 'liberated' power?
    #25
  26. Shy19s
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    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

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    I agree with everything your all saying, but if your going for more power.. The bottom line is that with a turbo charged car if you dont remap it to suit the mods, then your not going to see a great increase, and fitting a FMIC will make a difference, however we all know that remapping a std turbo after the first initial map isnt worth doing, and is a waste of time/money etc...but if you want to go for the maximum effect then surley you'd go for the bigger turbo etc, like Animal said tho, its just the money stopping you.
    #26
  27. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    have to go against you guys on this......

    Not arse licking here but Glen has done a hell of a lot of testing on these sorts of things and would wait for his opinion on the power..... i have read in several places from several members that the FMIC does NOT make anymore power for the car
    #27
  28. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    A FMIC won't add any more power...
    The standard ICs heat soak badly...but you'll get at least one good pull with them, before they do, so if you dyno on a cold set up (cold engine, cold ICs, cold inlet manifold etc...but warm oil - like that's likely!) then you'd get the maximum power the engine is capable of making.
    Add an FMIC and you'll get the same power, but you'll get it on the 2nd run, 3rd run, 4th run etc.

    The standard ICs are effective on an S3 (2, don't forget, over the K03's 1) but not efficient when the temperatures rise....so you get a great first run/few minutes of use...then they get hot and the efficiency drops off...so you make progressively less power.

    I struggle to understand how going from a single SMIC to a FMIC could 'make' 18BHP...unless the gain was measuring a hot, heatsoaked SMIC vs a cold, big FMIC.
    Then, yeah, I could see it...18BHP is more than i'd have expected...but certainly possible, in my view...presumably you are running high boost on your K03S?

    Lowering inlet charge temperatures will technically 'add' power...but you have to be honest with yourself...it doesn't really 'add' power...it just doesn't 'loose' it as the heat builds up.
    You can't make any more power (with a FMIC) than the engine would make on a perfect day - cold dense ambient air, cold ICs, cold inlet manifold/head...warm oil etc. What you get as a power run under those circumstances, is the best you are going to get. (Well, that's not strictly true...if the standard ICs were utterly rubish, and just didn't work, you would see more power...but they aren't that bad...they just heatsoak quickly.)
    With a SMIC/SMISc you get it once, then the numbers start getting less...with a FMIC you get it pretty much all of the time.

    As for boost...an FMIC will not affect boost levels, as your comment seems to suggest - unless I'm reading it wrong.

    The FMIC will, if anything increase lag slightly, as you have to fill more volume with pressurised air...but it shouldn't affect lag.
    You will more than likely get a slight increase in restriction accross the IC (pressure drop, if you will) but I found the MAP sensor being downstream of the ICs allows the same charge air pressure to be seen at the engine regardless...presumably by compensating for slight pressure drops.
    So, no boost gains/losses from the IC...

    What you can do though, is run higher boost than with the SMIC/SMICs and still keep the charge air temperature sensible, such is the 'better' cooling available....but that's a software/hardware change rather than a side effect of the FMIC.
    #28
  29. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Fitting an FMIC will do the same to a re-mapped car, as a standard car...it will delay the onset of heatsoak and allow the engine to make the power for longer before it starts to drop off.

    Heatsoak isn't just an IC issue though...although it's the first place you see it, and the easiest to address...
    Track your S3 and with the best ICs in the world, you will still start to heatsoak...10-15 minutes of track use on my 275+ BHP / 330+ lb-ft S3 and you are dropping power by the minute...time to pull off and let the block/manifolds/turbo/radiator/coolant cool down...
    To stop this...you need to cool that lot better...and that's a whole different issue and level of work...


    I disagree...
    It depends what you want. I never had any intention of having a big turbo on my S3 as chasing big BHP at the expense of lag, on a 1400Kg hatchback, is silly in my view...
    I wanted as much low down torque as possible...so a K04 is the answer to that...
    OK, I loose out at the top end...(Personally, I think the JBS K05 thingy would be the beast for me) but I wanted as much torque as possible and as much mid range...so this can be achived by very efficient ICs and very high boost at peak boost (1.89 bar in my case)
    I had several maps on mine...and ended up with an S3 that was still, point to point, on the back roads I drive on...as quick as any big turbo car I've driven (and I've driven a few) but without the massive bill.

    Ideally, something with K04 bottom end with GT28 top end would be ideal..but this doesn't exist...yet. Although the JBS K05 kit sounds closest.
    #29
  30. Shy19s
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    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

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    I agree with what your saying, it definatly depends on what your after.. My point was simply; that it wont make a big difference if you get a FMIC unless you uprate other parts of your intake/fuel system..
    But like you said depends on what your after.. Big turbo with big power top end.. or smallish turbo with Torquey bottom end.. Personally i'd prefere a turbo that pulls harder and stronger to redline, even if its abit laggy in the first few thousand revs..
    Obviously a good map is cruicial too tho.
    Just out of curiousity also.. Is there a Cam upgrade for these engines? If so any you'd recommend?
    #30
  31. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I think there is a good reason to add a FMIC.
    you keep the same amount of power for longer...and delay the onset of heatsoak.
    So for me, that's worthwhile.


    I believe there is...
    But personally, can't see the point.

    High lift, long duration cams make sense on NA engines...on FI engines, just turn up the boost. Same result...less hassle.
    #31
  32. Shy19s
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    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

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    Cool.. well I'll be getting one when i choose a turbo kit either way.. but interesting to hear your points.. so thanks.. so im guessing by changing cams wont get any more power before turbo kicks in?
    #32
  33. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    so would uprated side mount ic's be ok instead of fitting a fmic as we have 2 of them?? plus can you actually get uprated side ic's and if so where from??
    #33
  34. sitrials
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    sitrials Member

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    forge did an uprated Side mount but as answered above the smic are pants basically.
    #34
  35. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    didnt no if uprated ones would over come the fact there pants thought it might have been an issue with the standard setup as i thought they were in quite good positions and well vented
    #35
  36. HTC
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    HTC Active Member

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    I have a uprated smic from the states. My car is being mapped as we speak, so I'll have to record some logs when I get it back and report.
    #36
  37. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    Yes...they'd be better...but cost a lot more and possibly work no better - if as good - as a well designed FMIC.

    I don't know of anyone who makes a pair of uprated SMICs...Forge did me a one off drivers side SMIC years ago...and I know you can get them for Golg 4 / A3s.

    The SMICs are actually in a good place, lots of cold ducted air...they just don't have the surface area to knock the heat out of the inlet charge when you whack the boost up.

    I'd still go FMIC over 2 x uprated SMICs simply because you get more surface area and likely less cost.

    I ran SMIC - FMIC in lead lag...and although the FMIC did the most work, the uprated SMIC took the sting out of the charge, giving the FMIC less work to do.
    It worked well...

    A decent FMIC should do just as well...
    #37
  38. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    No, they aren't pants.
    It depends on what application you are using them for.

    Standard S3 they are fine...re-mapped they start to struggle, with an aggressive re-map on a K04, they are inadequate.

    But, big turbo, they are fine again as the big turbo doesn't generate nearly as much heat as a K04 running flat out (above 1.6 bar boost the K04 becomes a heat pump!)

    So, they aren't pants...there are just better individual solutions to individual problems.
    #38
  39. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    I've never played with cams on FI engines, so can't say from experience...
    but normally cams are used to open the valves longer, and further

    Great for getting more air into a NA engine...but long duration cams and FI = lots of wasted boost passing straight through the engine, not being burned.
    Not good.

    Perhaps if the FI cams were higher lift and the same duration, they'd work well.
    But overcoming lag on a BT application?
    I can't see that...it's physics...you just don't overcome that!
    #39
  40. Shy19s
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    Shy19s Oil running through my veins.

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    lol ok mate.. thanks for takin the time out to reply.. see how bad it is when its all assembled.
    #40

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