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Front mount intercooler

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by Lox3n, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. Lox3n
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    Lox3n Member

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
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  3. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
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  4. Lox3n
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    Lox3n Member

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  5. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    unsure, probably more, but the stock parts wouldnt fit my car anyway due to its turbo.
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  6. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    What size oulets and pipes you running aragorn ?? I was thinking of 2.5" with piping in either 2" or 2.5" ??

    what size is outlet on your comp housing as mines same as the stock turbo
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  7. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    that cooler comes with 57mm outlets, so i went with 57mm silicone bends etc on the "hot" side. The "cold" side uses one of the 50mm pre-formed pipes as used in the kit in the first post with a 57 to 51mm reducer off the intercooler, and links in with the original intercooler top hose. Probably a bit restrictive, but its what i had.

    If i were to do it again, i'd get 45 degree bends welded onto the intercooler core, as it would have given me a lot more room around the front bumper grilles.
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  8. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    You got any pics off it installed ?? Did you have to remove fogs or headlight washers etc ??
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  9. Lox3n
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    Lox3n Member

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    [Sep 16, 2013]

    That was my next question haha like the look of seeing the pipes but don't wanna lose my fogs!
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  10. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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  11. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    I use one of the ebay jobbies. To be fair I can't really fault it. Will see how it copes when I get the new turbo and injectors in.

    [​IMG]
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  12. Lox3n
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    Lox3n Member

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    [Sep 16, 2013]
    Thanks for the all the feed back :) ... what turbo and injectors are you going to?
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  13. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    Turbo is a custom K04-023 to fit, not sure about injectors yet but have set of new Astra VXR injectors in the garage.
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  14. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    VXR's should be fine :)

    You'll need a bigger MAF too, and i dropped my base fuel pressure to 3 bar to give the pump an easier life.
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  15. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    VXR Injectors are 440cc arent they ??

    are these ok ??
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  16. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    Been looking at Golf VR6 housings to mount my current sensor. If you have a better suggestion I am listening. Need to get this right as I have quite a bit to do before the car is used in anger in Feb at Bedford Autodrome
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  17. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    Yep VR6 housing with your sensor is the way to go. VXR's are ~440, and yes they should be fine. I'm going to get a set for mine when i finally get the stuff together to tune the hybrid in the avant.

    B5's run 4 bar base pressure, which IMO is silly as when your running say 1.5bar of boost your pushing the rail pressure up to 5.5bar and giving the pump a really hard time. Dropping the static pressure to 3bar seems much more sensible to me, and will increase fuel delivery under full boost.

    You'll also need to sort out a tuner. I think RTech are up there with knowledge of tuning these older ECU's, but even then i suspect they'll want you to swap it for an AGU A3 one, as those are flashable over OBD, whereas the A4 one is not.
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  18. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    I was talking to a chap called Simon Coe at CCC Tech who seemed really positive and did some work for a friend of mine. This was last year though whilst I was enjoying a temporary pedestrian status so it never progressed.

    Quite happy to swap to an AGU ecu as long as I won't lose DIS etc as it's a daily driver so want more grunt without too much compromise to the rest of the car.

    What do you think on clutch as mine is the original at 170k miles so not expecting it to last long with a hike in power and torque. I was contemplating importing a Southbend item from the states
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  19. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    DIS is all independent of the ECU. Fuel consumption might be a bit squiffy, but that can be fixed in the map if needed.

    I'm running a 240mm S2 clutch on a modified Audi 80 flywheel. Its about the cheapest way to more power handling.

    I've never heard of CCC-Tech, but be aware a lot of "tuners" dont actually have a clue what they're doing, and once they get beyond the basic remap stuff they end up just making a complete arse of everything. Its happened too many times to too many different people on here, I'm not saying this guy is going to be like that, but i'd be very wary unless you can find proper backed up tesitmonials from proper custom work on M3.8 ECU's.
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  20. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    It's really annoying as I know a supperb mapper who helps teach the black art and has been developing rolling roads for many years, unfortunately he hasn't access to the kit needed to do my current set up. If an AGU ecu is plug and play I may get one and go that route.

    Also unsure what the crack is with my TIP, got to expect problems doing this stuff, it kind of makes it fun
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  21. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    my turbo uses a K04-023 compressor housing too, its similar to yours but has hybrid internals rather than stock K04-023 bits. The stock tip doesnt fit as the turbo intakes larger, as well as the maf being bigger.

    I bought a TIP from frankenturbo which has the 2" turbo end and 3" MAF end so fits the S3 turbo and 3" maf combo just nicely.


    The AGU ECU is plug and play if you currently have a two plug ECU. If its a 5 plug, you're going to have to change the loom i recon, because i doubt anyone can do anything with the old 5 plug ECU's these days.
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  22. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    I seem to recall when we pulled it out for the original rechip it was a 2 plug ECU but couldn't say for certain. I will have to ask Rob what he was using for the TIP and maybe see if he wants to sell that too.

    What sort of power and torque level are you expecting to see?
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  23. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    My turbo has a 2280 compressor (Same as that used in the Focus ST) which is capable of around 320hp. Turbine is from an RS6 and is capable of over 320. The big issue is the turbine housing is very restrictive, so TBH i suspect i probably wont see much more than about 280hp. I suspect that the K04-023 might be a better match to this turbine housing delivering similar performance with less lag, but we'll need to see what happens once i get it tuned.

    Currently running 10-12psi actuator pressure, and its making around 230hp from what i can tell from the MAF figures, and its not been mapped yet, just running stock map with C20LET injectors and MAF nailed on.
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  24. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    Hmm, be interesting to see what my old barge does then as 230bhp with the bits just nailed on sounds appealing
    #23
  25. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    This is the route im looking at going with an agu ecu but wont be for a while as the mrs is expecting so no mods for me for now :( iirc the AGU ECU has to end in 018 R or 018 CJ to work with out cars

    hmm the VXR injectors sound tempting if i can get some at a steal !! I work for vauxhall/citroen so see what they cost new or if any vauxhall techs have any lying around :)

    230hp is a good figure till i get the chance to throw some rods in lol
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  26. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    they're pretty cheap new, only ~100ish for four
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  27. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    Ive just priced them up and he said £77 +vat each !!
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  28. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    My brother got his set from Courtney, I'm paying £100 for them from him which is what he paid.
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  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
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  30. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    That does ring a bell as to what he did. They were supposed to be going into his Fiesta RS Turbo project but he opted to buy an M3 and a house instead of finishing it. Shame as it was looking to be an absolute animal.

    Vauxhall bits purchased for a Ford and ending on an Audi. Got to laugh.
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  31. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    Will get the other parts lad whos back in tomorrow to check as the lad i asked is a complete mong as the picture did show the rail with all injectors attached so i could get them at cost plus 10% which should be around the £100 mark.
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  32. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 17, 2013]
    VXR ones are 470cc looking on ebay !!
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  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    I should add that if you want to just nail them on, you probably cant use the VXR injectors.

    The ECU only has so much adaption for fuelling, around 15%, so the injectors and MAF need to be fairly closely matched if you want to keep within the ECU's adaption limits.

    I'm using C20LET injectors, which are ~320cc with a 3 bar regulator. As it happens the C20LETs on 3bar is almost exactly the same increase over stock as is the change from a stock to VR6 MAF, which means everything lines up nicely. You could probably also use Z20LET injectors, which are also ~320cc. VXR/Z20LEH injectors are just too much larger than stock, the ECU would never be able to adapt to them without a tune explicitly programming the injector size.

    The other issue with running the car like this, is the ignition timing ends up a bit over advanced, as the ECU essentially cant "see" the additional airflow and power. I stick to only ever using super unleaded, and the ECU's knock control seems to keep things in check. It needs very careful checking though, especially if you plan to use the car hard, ideally it wants a run up on a dyno to check the fuelling and some logging doing to make sure ignition is sensible. You'll also want to use an MBC or similar, becuase the ECU's boost control will be all over the place. I just run mine on actuator pressure, which is around 10-12psi. Not sure what actuator your turbo has though.

    Mines essentially a temporary measure until i get it tuned, and i'm not too worried as the car doesnt get driven that hard. It has been like that for over 6 months though.
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  34. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    I have every intention of getting it mapped to suit. It would just be handy if I can nail the bits on and drive without stressing about something breaking. The car is my daily after all so if it breaks I'll need to grovel to the missus for lifts and loan of her car.

    That won't go down well as she says I have another toy car in the garage at my mums place. lol
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  35. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    yeh, point is if you use the VXR injectors, you'll have to either get it towed, or fit them and the MAF when you get to the tuner. Its not going to drive on VXR injectors with the stock tune.

    If you use the C20LET ones, its close enough that it works just fine.
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  36. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    Might lob a set of LET injectors in and swap to VXR ones when it goes in for the mapping.
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  37. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    yep, thats my plan!
    #36
  38. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    So are our injector options to run the stock map as follows :-

    C20LET's
    Saab Reds
    Z20LET's
    Bosch EV1 injectors with flow of around 300-380cc @ 3 bar

    and once mapped

    Z20LEH/R/L
    Green giants
    any thing over 400cc @ 3 bar with EV1 connector ??

    Also can the pre-mapped setup be run on the stock intercooler ??
    #37
  39. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    Pre mapped will be fine on stock cooler.

    And yeh, i'm running +7 fuel trims on the C20LETs, ZLET's would be a bit closer to zero, and saab reds would probably be a bit negative.

    This is on 3bar remember, you might just about get away with C20LET's on a 4bar regulator. but you'd be close to the adaption limit i suspect if you used anything bigger.
    #38
  40. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    Coolio, im going to switch out the fpr anyway to ease the pump effort. Also going to drop a 044 pump in at some point do you have a link to the correct one also is there one the drops in the stock basket ??

    who you getting yours tuned by ?? Unicorn or r-tech ?? Be good to see your gains from your already 230hp !!
    #39
  41. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 18, 2013]
    No point in the 044 mate. TQS has the same pump as the S4, and will flow over 400hp without too much of a worry. Your not going to trouble it with your K04.

    Not sure who i'm going to get to tune it yet. I need to get the ME7.5 conversion sorted first!
    #40

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