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Front 8mm spacers not safe??

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Agent_Trig, Nov 16, 2011.

  1. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Just tried mine and it's worse! Going to get wheels balanced tomorrow grrrrrrr!
    #41
  2. paddy
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    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    As a matter of Safety ...
    wheel bolts should be tightened to 85LB/FT/ 120NM. You should tighten them 12 then 6 then 3 then 9 oclock. you will be surprised that 85lb/ft in reality is not a lot and you would certainly get another 1/8 turn and more with an extended wrench no problem, A/ its unnecessary and B/ you will stretch the bolts which will weaken them.
    If you over tighten then they will continue to come "lose" in effect, simply because you are stretching the bolts a little bit more each time.
    Always apply a little copper slip to the hub and bolts to stop corrosion. Tire centres always over tighten wheels with air guns so when you get home, slacken them off and re torque then to the proper setting. My tire place always torques the bolts now. He says any one that doesn't is risking liability if there is a Accident/problem later and his business insurance insists on it. Simples :)
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2011
    #42
  3. legin
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    legin Member

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    Actually you dont mean stretch but yield when you say permanent deformation to weaken them. A stretched bolt ie upto 90% yield (not weakened) is in fact less likely to suffer failure than one that isnt stretched and gives a far better joint hence why they are used on cylinder heads and conrods etc. A torque wrench gives poor control of strain due to the variability in friction such that a lubed bolt will give a totally different strain than one that isnt so in reality torquing your wheels bolts is a bit hit and miss but better than guessing of course. A dry bolt given an extra nip is a good thing.
    #43
  4. Agent_Trig
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    Agent_Trig Member

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    Was it worse after you gave them a quick tighten, or they have just got worse since your last drive?
    #44
  5. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Worse after tightening them. There is this vibration through the chassis almost like yor DMF has failed.

    At lunchtime I'm off to get them looked at, but I may just cut out the hassle and buy some 19" TT-RS rims and stop fannying about!!!

    I always new this was a bit of a punt, but to be having this many problems with brand new kit is a bit tedious!
    #45
  6. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Well it goes from bad to worse!As a process of elimination I thought I'd try and remove the rear spacers so I could see if front or rear are causing the issue.I got to remove rear spacer, won't budge. I gently tap it with a rubber mallet, nothing. So I gently try and prize it away on all sides, still not budging, so I try a bit harder. Nothing. Add lubricant, nothing. Try a bit harder and when a tried to assert some pressure around the hub centre, crack the spacer shim lip shears.You KNOW where these £100 spacers are going when the come off (if!).Landfill!Does anyone know a knack of getting them off?
    #46
  7. paddy
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    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Ha...now two points here.
    This is why i said you must add copper slip to the" HUBS" and bolts
    And where "legin" says a extra nip is always good for a dry bolt...You shouldn't be putting these bolts in dry, dissimilar metals and all that.
    torque wrench and copper slipped bolts please.
    Stretched bolts is a figurative term . its actually the thread that stretches. Under tension which tightening produces the tension is taken on the thread not the bolts core.


    My latest failing ... today i shut the tail gate...not slammed. just shut and the number plate light fell out with its fixing snapped off....:)
    #47
  8. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Agreed Paddy, will be doing the greasing if I can get the other spacers off!

    Got my torque wrench set to 120Nm as we speak ready to go and sort out removing spacers from back (only got one off yesterday!).

    Need to head to Forge on way into work to try and get some new rear 12mm's!

    Sorry to hear about your boot debacle, do you ever find your boot doesn't always close properly? Sometimes it might take 3 attempts to shut it. Parcel shelf seems fine on its lugs, so having to assume its bedding in.
    #48
  9. paddy
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    paddy Audi=No fault code, no idea

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    Yes strangely my boot didn't always shut but it does now, as you say its bedded in . The rubber bung stops are adjustable, they screw in and out but mine were already right in. Its quite nice having symbol on the dash light up to tell you your number plate light just fell out :) they think of everything these Germans :)

    My tire place always copper slips the hubs to stop the paint pulling off the wheels, now i know why, must be a fair amount of sticktion going on these .
    #49
  10. Agent_Trig
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    Agent_Trig Member

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    After a week of driving with this slight vibration I have noticed something that I'm not sure if it's a characteristic of wheel wobble or not.

    I get the vibration at around speeds of 70-80mph as said earlier but I have since learnt that I can only feel it when accelerating and not when just cruising at those speeds.

    For example... I'll accelerate hard from 50-80 from about 70 I'll start to feel the vibrations though the steering wheel, even more so if there is more strain like accelerating up hill. But if I take the car to 85mph and then just let it slow down naturally to 50 I wont feel anything.

    Also, if I was to drive at a constant 75mph on a smooth stretch of flat road, its smooth, but as soon as I start accelerating it starts to vibrate, even more so the harder I accelerate and then the vibrations die off when I get above 80mph.

    So basically, is this what happens when some is not balanced or aligned correctly (with or without spacers) or is this in fact a symptom of something else?

    I'm gonna try and take the front spacers off this weekend anyway as a test, but would like to know what your thoughts are on the above experience.

    Cheers :)
    #50
  11. marknjayne
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    marknjayne Member

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    sounds like a worn bush or driveshaft issue somewhere,IMO nothing to do with spacers
    #51
  12. Agent_Trig
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    Agent_Trig Member

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    In that case I should still feel the same symptoms when the spacers have been removed.

    Strange as I only started to notice this after the car had been lowered and the spacers fitted but then I was looking out for difference in how the car drove after having these parts fitted which is why I may of noticed something that had been there all the time?
    #52
  13. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I've just taken off my front spacers and I noticed whereas the rear ones fit tight as a glove and take a hell of a lot of effort to get them off, the front ones just fall off with finger touch. In fact there is the timiest amount of play between hub and spacer. So put some copper grease on the inner face of the spacer and around the hub, remounted them and this seemed to remove the play. Put them back on, greased the nuts, applied the torque suggested with a torque wrench, went back out and tested them, and once you get to 75mph+ it's exactly the same. Steering wheel doesn't noticeably vibrate as such, it's more that you can feel a vibration through it and through the floor pan on your feet. Very slight, but enough to piss me off.

    I'm going to head off and have my wheels balanced just in case, but if not, and I remove the spacers and the issue goes then they're coming off; end of!
    #53
  14. Agent_Trig
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    Agent_Trig Member

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    What you describe is identical to my symptoms mate. I got my wheels re-balanced and exactly the same.

    Do you notice the vibrations more so when accelerating rather then cruising? ie - drive at a steady 75mph on a flat surface and its fine, start accelerating hard (especially uphill) and its starts to vibrate. Like you say though, not the steering wheel wobbling in your hand but more a vibrations coming up through the wheel and under your feet.

    But as soon as I back off the power and let it de-celerate, the vibrations go.

    I'd be interested to see if it's the same for you too, cause at the moment I just do not have the time to remove my spacers to find out if they are the cause of all this and would be keen to to find out if removing your spacers cures your problems especially if you experience what I just described above. :)
    #54
  15. S.
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    S. Well-Known Member

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    probably something isn't balanced good.
    i'm running 12mm SCC spacers at the front only and don't have any issue with them.
    #55
  16. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Finally resolved.

    Front offside wheel 35g out, rear near side 19g out. Obviously wheel balancing is half arsed approach at Audi factory!

    Wheels balanced, hubs cleaned, new Forge 11mm spacers fitted. Wheel wobble is history! Three weeks of head scratching over!
    #56
  17. poli84
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    poli84 Member

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    Good to hear you have the issue sorted Warren.
    I've been following this thread as i have some 10 and 12mm H&Rs on order.

    Do you have any fitment advice?
    #57
  18. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If you get your hub faces clean first, then ensure your wheel inner face is clean as you need completely flat clean face to face join.

    Then get the wheels fine balanced if you can as it offers more fine tune than standard balancing.

    Then copper grease your threads on your bolts, and torque up in star formation to about 80NM.

    I'm not sure if the H&R hubs would benefit from a tiny bit of grease around the centre hub contact area to stop them bonding.

    Other that that it should be happy motoring. Whilst you are there check the grub screw holding on your brake disc; one of mine was loose / proud.
    #58
  19. Agent_Trig
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    Agent_Trig Member

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    Where can I get my wheels fine balanced? I had them balanced to see if they was the problem and although I was told that they were out the problem is still there.

    This is going to sound really stupid now though... I only had the front wheels balanced as I thought the rears wouldn't have an effect on the steering ... Can just rears give these symptoms?
    #59
  20. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Elite in Reading supposedly have the capability to do this, but very few tyre places do so you'd have to ring round. Machine has a different way of balancing the wheel, but unsure as to how.

    Rears will cause a vibration, it's not just driven wheels. Front's will give you more feedback through steering wheel, rears you'll feel more through the floor of the car.
    #60
  21. poli84
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    poli84 Member

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    Thanks Warren, much appreciated!
    Had the wheels balanced a couple of months ago, hopefully no vibrations.
    Otherwise i'll search for a fine balance centre.
    #61

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