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Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by S., Jun 28, 2009.
Still missing the point I see!
Point taken, but its really not my responsibility to prove that this works, all I can say is that with my experience of back to back testing lots of intakes on my car, this made the most power.. That will probably mean nothing to you but thats all I can offer im sorry..
Anyways! My point is that your basing your thoughts on what your seeing, and presumably your engineering / tuning development background?
This is the first intake that Forge produced, 70mm pipe work, filter positioned down in the front wheel arch fed from the passenger side fog grill, cool air, etc etc..
This is the second intake that was in testing..
Again 70mm pipe work, large cold air feed from the stock location, cool air..
And the twintake..
One filter feeding from the stock location, and the other from the passenger side wheel arch, cool air.. But not to your liking obviously.. :icon_thumright:
My point is that I think, if Forge had released the second intake pictured you would have probably though, yeah, that makes sense, good one Forge! Based on it 'Looking' like it should work..
They didn't, because the Twintake made a solid 8bhp more in back to back testing, so the second design was dropped.. Something that can't be ignored..
The point is, that with the limited space available in the engine bay the only way to have an intake feeding from just cool air is to have two filters, otherwise re locating the battery would be the only way.. Not something that 99% of people looking for an intake system would want to do..
Up to you if you take on board any of that, you seem dead against the idea so probably not..
Well...it certainly isn't pretty,but if it works,then it does what's asked of it.
Is the 8bhp gain you got as compared to the original Forge CAI,or the one with the bigger intake?
The other thing I meant to ask jonnyc is what sort of power the Golf is turning out now?
Very useful info JonnyC - thanks.
How come this thread was locked last night ?!?!
Theres a duct on the left hand side next to the fog..well right hand side when standing in front of your vehicle. Remove that duct and let the cold air rush in!
what it was locked lastnight ???....
who's becomeing the thread locking fairy.
becuase 2 people were debaiting its getting a bit of a joke threads being locked , point is if we cant debate what's the point of having threads there was no real argueing or swearing ???
Good write up jonny, I have seen the second CAI but in a different car and TBH the filter in that one does look a bit small compared to the ITG one.
I've heard through the grapevine that the ITG one may be held up a bit due to difficulties sourcing / developing parts.
Based on what you've seen so far Andy, which would you say looks the most progressive / effective design between the Forge and the ITG?
I've had some fabulous kit from Forge in the past and really rate their stuff, so can't wait to see this one come out.
Warren, The ITG stuff looks great, and will replace the Evoms as a front runner for engine bay mounted filters, its big and lets more air flow, but I like sealed CAI's and I believe they do suck more cold air so therefore perform better, so for me its the Twintake next
Quote from Forge (borrowed from elsewhere)
"The problem seems to be that the cold air feed in the slam panel simply cant supply the amount of air needed over 5000rpm. You can see from the dyno plots that the power and torque just fall away. The twintake doesnt have this restriction, as one filter is sealed to the slam panel, the other is open to the air behind the headlight.
Its interesting to note that on the new Mk6 GTi, VW have the same air filter configuration as the Scirocco, yet they have incorporated a 25mmx100mm hole on the top of the air feed essentially opening the feed to 'engine bay' makeup air, and thus reducing the restriction"
Anybody have a pic of this ITG intake?
And here is the full quote ;
Join Date: Sep 2002
Both the Mk5 and Scirocco has stock boxes. The Mk5 made 13bhp, the Scirocco 17bhp. These were both back to back dyno runs made on the same day/same conditions to rule out any inconsistency.
The problem seems to be that the cold air feed in the slam panel simply cant supply the amount of air needed over 5000rpm. You can see from the dyno plots that the power and torque just fall away. The twintake doesnt have this restriction, as one filter is sealed to the slam panel, the other is open to the air behind the headlight.
Its interesting to note that on the new Mk6 GTi, VW have the same air filter configuration as the Scirocco, yet they have incorporated a 25mmx100mm hole on the top of the air feed essentially opening the feed to 'engine bay' makeup air, and thus reducing the restriction.
So your gaining 13bhp on a Golf from over a stock air box. How much does a BMC CAI claim to make over a stock air box ???
If Forge want to produce this and prove it work fair enough. What i find funny and quite sad is all the sheep that go " Oh it`s Forge it must be good" and don`t question anything. Take practically everyone on this thread saying how great this is when none of you have any evidence to prove it. Only one member on this thread has even had this fitted to his car who has any knowledge of how this new design effects the running of his car so how can anyone else who has as stated on the second post on this thread has no info on this product say how great it is. By the way if you don`t want people to question and discuss a new designed car product then don`t post it on a car forum.
I don't kiss Forge's arse to be frank. I recently traded back to a Rev. D DV from a Forge as personally it was the better solution for my needs.
What I do applaud is that if everyone felt inclined to shout everything down before it's had a chance to stand on it's own to feet then you have to wonder whose got the issue. Forge are just trying to make a great product, and one that irrespective of its overall ability will be leagues ahead of what currently resides under my bonnet. Can I knock them for that?
I totally applaud you for standing up for your beliefs, but there comes a point with us boys who 'don't have the product under our bonnet', who have as much right to have faith as it is your right not to have (I take it you don't have it either).
There's no beef from me, and not once I have slated you to your right to your opinion. I have to be one of the most impartial people you could meet on a forum.
I have nothing against you either warrencox or anyone else on this thread either. I am just trying to have a discussion about a new designed product and deal with tuning facts and evidence. Forge aren`t going to take any notice of what i have to say and the product isn`t even aimed at my type of car anyway. If everyone want to run off and spend ££££ on this product just because Forge produce it "so it must be the best" and not question the design or results ( 13 bhp over a stock factory airfilter sytem ) then carry on. I am not going to get dragged down and get involved in some petty slagging match with people i don`t know and have never met.
If I could offer a neutral observation here .... I have the Forge Intake Mark I (which takes cold air from behind the foglight grill). It costs £270 from Forge and mine was dynod at AmD using before and after runs and showed a 10bhp gain over the stock system. Rabbit222 also saw 10bhp when he fitted his. For me, £270 for 10bhp (4% of stock power) and the chance to go Revo Stage 2+ where a cold air intake is a pre-requisite was worth it. [I actually got mine from eBay for £120 but I would have paid the £270 had I not been so lucky].
Now obviously it won't be worth it to me to upgrade from this intake to the TWINtake for an extra 3bhp - but if I was buying an intake from new I would go for the TWINtake as long as the price wasn't ridiculous. DevonMikeyBoy hints that 13bhp over stock isn't worth it - but I would disagree with that assuming that your goal is to maximise your car's power and potential.
I suppose we all need to wait for the pricing on these - if its over £400 then I can't see why you wouldn't settle for 10bhp and pocket the £130+. If it retails at £300 then its surely a good buy. Until then I don't see how anyone can judge the product really.
When I first bought the S3 in 2007 and had it mapped on day 2 I bought a Carbonia / filter as nothing else existed at the time. On reflection I should have waited as the continued use of the engine cover a restriction, but at the time it was better than the piece of OE pap that Audi had latched on to the slam panel. I don't mind that I am choosing to replace it, and I have the choice of dbilas / Evoms / Neuspeed etc. I fancy the Forge because I like the concept as much as anything else. It could be made by Big Bob's Bastard Beans for all I care, but on a serious note people's opinions I respect seem to think it will work, so I am prepared to take that chance. I don't really care about the cost. I will make a lovely set of earings for the wife for Christmas if it doesn't work :icon_thumright:
mine's standard engine cover with standard airfilter so what you guys wreckon , i should go for the twintake then , i bet it costs a bomb though
Absolutely agree 100%, everyone has an opinion, let them voice it, no one should be verbally insulted unless there is good reason.
As far as I'm concerned Mikey to date has been very helpful & credit to ASN & has always from my knowledge & dealings with him been very factual & polite, he hasnt picked anyone out & picked a beef, so lets not start one.
Also it does seem like some dicks are swinging around the room as to whose is largest, we all have knowledge so lets put it forward & discuss like adults, differences of opinion are everyday events, deal with it.
As for the thread original discussion, I'm on the wall atm as I'd like to read more on this & see figures from a few cars to see if its beneficial or not.
I will however say Forge have made some good products but not all products actually make any real difference, maybe made better so they do the same job & last longer but not neccessarily improve the car tuning wise & thats from factual real world experience used on my previous S3, jury's out I think atm.
Depends on the finalised cost. You may be better off depending on your aspirations going with the current crop of intakes (dbilas/evoms/forge/neuspeed) if they turn out to be half the cost but offer more than half of the performance. I'd wait for the ITG and FOrge one to surface and be tested before blowing any £££'s
I'm surprised.....what's the point of this comment.
I guess I'd not expected that,but the point of this thread is discussion,not this sort of thing.
I'm not a fan of this product or the Twintercooler,not because they don't do their job(which they seem to do on all of the evidence),but because they aren't a single engineering solution to a problem,but something tacked onto something else to achieve the result.
Having owned two fairly powerful modded cars before(at 380 and 440bhp respectively)I do appreciate good engineering,and reliable work for high power.
I do however respect Devonmikeyboy's views,and also Iggu's point that one wouldn't neccessarily want to spend a few hundred pounds to get a few BHP more,unless,like jonnyc perhaps,you do race and track the car.
I'm very pleased with the quality of Forge's DV and CAI that I have on my car,but I would wait for the larger intercooler being developed as posted elsewhere.
All of you with modified cars here have been very helpful to my own search for a driveable S3 with more power,and Andy has been very instructive indeed,which makes name-calling all the more surprising.
That's my 5p's worth.
warren is a new speed cai any good im gone by one for 90 quid is that worth it
Does it look anything like this one?
If so that's cheap as this is about £400 RRP.
You would also want to buy some sort of heat shield to seal the filter cone from the ambient engine air.
its just the top pipe with the filter on the end but i think i can buy the extended bar seperate no engine cover either but do i need one whats it for just for looks
I think so as it doesn't appear to be any functional part of the kit.
I think I know a bloke called Dan who has a heavily modified Leon 2.0TFSi (400bhp+) who may have one of these so I will ask him about it and let you know if he thinks it is any good.
with airfilters on about cold air....i dont mean to talk shyte has any one thought of putting the pipe with filter to vents in the wing somehow or bonnet to get airfrom outside the engine bay i bet that would be great why dont audi do bonnet vents for the s3 as most other top cars of there class do ??...
feck hows he got it to 400 brake k4 turbo and let us no on the filter thanks warren ....
In my Leon I had 2 intake ducts, one going through the inner wing and behind the fog light in the bumper, the second was linked to a SEATSport touring car intake on the slam panel.
The only risk of taking air from low levels is you increase the chance of water ingress into the air intake system.
I think the CDA filters went into an inner wing location.
I can see the frustration,people have put a lot of time and money into modifying there cars and a different opinion is aired but can we please keep it clean
Sod it, he has an APR intake. Must have been someone else. His 400+bhp comes from:
APR Stage 3 Big turbo conversion:
Garret GT2871RS Turbo
APR Manifold + downpipe
APR Fuel pump
Modified APR Carbon fibre Induction kit
Intergrated engineering connecting rods.
Snow performance Stage 2 TFSI Boost cooler - Water methenol injection kit.
Milltek Full non-resonated exhaust
Southbend Stage 3 Clutch with ligtened SMF
Powerflex dogbone mount insert
Peloquin Torque Biasing Diff
KW Variant 3 Coilovers
H&R Front and rear ARB's - stiff variety
AP Racing 6 piston calipers with AP bell, but now with Hispec Rotors.
Ferodo DS2500 pads.
ATE Superblue brake fluid
10mm H&R spacers on the front to clear the calipers
Trackday wheels - Team Dynamaics Pro Race 1.2 - 18x8 ET45 Matt black.
wow that's alot of cash to spend , wish i had it ......
i dont think id spend on a leon personaly but i wish that was under my bonnet i bet its rapid im currently thinking about a map to i see you have revo in your sig do you have the switch with it if so how much for the maps with switch ....
Yep, have the map and the Select switch.
Map was about £500. Switch was about another £250.
As much as I love the switch, I use it on three occasions.
1) When going back to dealers I set back to standard spec
2) When going on holiday or leaving the car parked up I can immobilise the car with the switch
3) If I go on a track day / drag run I can set the race setting
If I were you, I would consider a Revo map as they are quiet aggressive (compared to some of the more linear maps), but then wait for a select switch to come up on e-bay or on a forum as they tend to go for about £90.
The redtube vid I was watching earlier Nige, it appears its you
I went out in awesome GTI's 380bhp mk5 DSG APR stage III with that kit and it was a very capable car......
.....capable of wasting alot of cars
hear what you say im a bit worried about to aggressive maps cos of turbo failure etc ....
Switches are £50+vat at moment from Revo HQ
Ron Jeremy is my hero, lol
I wouldn't worry too much about that,on a couple of grounds.....firstly,we don't hear too many reports of failures either on stock or modified cars,and secondly,whilst the map "shape" if you like is a bit aggressive,the maximum boost is not much different from the GIAC and equivalent maps.
The turbo is more likely to fail from poor treatment such as being flogged for several miles and then the engine being turned off without any sort of cooling period.
That sort of behaviour can lead to oil getting cooked in the oil galleries in the turbo,but modern synthetics are less prone to that.
I had a Garrett T35(a hybrid of a T4 compressor and T3 exhaust housing with 360 degree bearing etc) which ran approximately 35psi maximum boost reliably for a number of years before I sold the car,and if the turbo is treated properly,and built well,it should last.
And now....back to the Twintake...
Vagcom shows the GIAC Hammer map (their most aggressive) boosts at a maximum 1.3 bar. But Revo Stage 1 boosts at 1.5 consistently and Revo Stage 2+ at 1.6 to 1.7. That's quite a difference to be fair.
But I agree 100% that there is minimal risk to the turbo itself - Revo's knowledge of the K04 is total and they even the most extreme settings will not put the hardware under so mush pressure it is liable to break - unless treated badly, in which case it would probably break whether remapped or not.
You gonna do FMIC Iggu