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For all your FWD boys that want to get the power down.... Droop limiters

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Andrew@A.L.D, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    Have you guys tried them?

    I had them on my old car and worked a treat, limited the front wheels from lifting and and spinning, it didn't stop the wheels spinning fully

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    As you can see the top of the fixing near the top of the strut

    Only cost about £20 so worth a try you guys?
    #1
  2. ALPINE
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    ALPINE Yes its diesel, now cry u lost

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    nice bay.... i will look into these, simple idea.
    #2
  3. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    Just think how a front wheel drive car launches

    The rear squats and the fronts lift, these droop limiters stop the front from lifting thus keeping more weight over the front wheels

    Thanks about the engine bay, that engine is now in a kit car in Germany
    #3
  4. MURRAYS444
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    MURRAYS444 Member

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    Great thing to have if you ask me my old clio was really bad for the front wheels to bounce up and down, pity i cant use as i got QUATTRO power now lol!!!
    #4
  5. finesse
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    finesse Active Member

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    :p:p
    #5
  6. Y83OLK
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    Y83OLK Hulk Smash!

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    I made an anti-lift kit for my old car... Dropped the front tiebars down 40mm where they attach to the crossmember.
    #6
  7. ALPINE
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    ALPINE Yes its diesel, now cry u lost

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    where dose one get these for ones car?
    #7
  8. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    Just raise the back...Sorted.
    #8
  9. wibble111
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    wibble111 needs to scratch the itch

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    The clamps are called rope grips, we use stuff like this at work quite a lot as guy wire's, i'll have a look where they get them from tomorrow and PM you the details if you want.
    #9
  10. S3KO4
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    S3KO4 Member

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    Does not look safe, just think what would happen if it comes away and get stuck between disc and caliper or wheel etc. worth knowing about these things before doing your DIYs!
    #10
  11. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    What happens when the suspension needs to move when you go over a hump back etc...does your car take off?

    Seems like a bad idea IMO limiting the suspension travel as it has to be able to move both ways. If you stop it rising an inch when you floor it its going to mess things up when it actually has to move that way when driving.
    #11
  12. wibble111
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    wibble111 needs to scratch the itch

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    You'd be surprised how much load they can take if fitted correctly, a 5mm wire rope with 2 grips each end and the wire in a thimble like in the 2nd to last picture has a breaking strain in the region of about 50kn (about 5 ton load on it) i cant think of any FWD car that would be able to snap the rope, if its not all fitted as it should be then you would potentially have a disaster on your hands.
    #12
  13. wibble111
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    wibble111 needs to scratch the itch

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    Good point.
    #13
  14. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    Fine in principle on a drag strip but not for real world driving. When the cars going over rolling bumps and the suspension extends it does it for a reason. Removing the suspensions ability to do this is wrong IMO.

    I wouldnt fit those to my car...there's a reason they dont come as standard after all....
    #14
  15. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    Just adjust them for road and then for track

    On mine i made them safe so if they snapped they wouldn't get tangled up

    I have seen this on pug race/track cars

    The suspension works as standard doesn't limit the travel just the droop, when fitted these only come into play when under hard acceleration

    I had them on my car old car for 6 years without any problems, passed many MOT's with them on
    #15
  16. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    They stop the droop by limiting the suspension travel so they WILL effect how the suspension goes through its motion.....so at some point its going to stop the body rising when the car becomes light after going over a roller. I'd imagine it'll do it with a bit of a bang too...not like the nice progressibe action of an unrestrained shock absorber working as it should do.

    Like I said on a track they'd be great but for a daily used on the road I'd give them a swerve.
    #16
  17. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    For people who have coilovers you can adjust the weight distrubution very easily by getting as close as possible to a 50/50 wedge.

    People get coliovers and think a stiffer and more responsive spring/damper has made there car handle better but if you setup your coilover right the difference can be massive.
    #17
  18. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    WHAT?! Coilovers cannot effect a cars weight distribution, what are you on about?
    #18
  19. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    I think what he's getting at jo is that you should ideally corner weight a car when you're setting it up to make sure its all nice and even...just like they do at the track :)

    Not sure how you would get 50/50 from that though...unless you remove the engine ;)
    #19
  20. sportquattro
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    sportquattro Active Member

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    As JOJO says coilovers or any suspension for that matter cannot and will not change a cars weight distribution, it will only affect the handling by virtue of being stiffer or softer thus altering the roll and steering geometry etc of the vehicle. The only way to alter a cars weight distribution is to remove heavy components or add heavy components (and/or replace with lighter ones).
    #20
  21. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    I think these 'droop limiters are pointless in a car with quattro. Andrew, I believe you are running a Haldex controller correct? You will have less droop during a launch with a haldex controller, as the 4wd would be fully locked before the power is transmitted to the wheels.

    Have a read of the following link for a review at the bottom of the page.

    Haldex Performance Controller Info & Review
    #21
  22. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    I dont think he's running them on his current whip jo, just a heads up for us FWD owners ;)
    #22
  23. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    lol, have you heard of wedge of cross weight percentage. It is really easy to do and understand how you can try and get a ideal 50/50 static weight distrubution.

    Basically, if your place your car on 4 scales on under each tyre obviously and you will get a reading. A percentage of the cars weight on that corner.

    By altering the ride height, lower or higher the car diagonally you are appling more force on the opposite diagonal wheel thus more weight. You can make quite be alterations in the cars wedge by adjusting the ride height.

    What you aim for a 50% of the cars weight diagonally which in practise can be very time consuming but can be achieved.

    Imagine if you raise the front right of your coilover ( stiffening the damper), it will raise your car at that corner giving a change in the diagonal percentage of the cars weight. You are appling more load on the rear left, appling more of the cars weight on that corner.

    Keep doing this till you get as close as possible to 50% diagonally, and you have adjusted the cars static weight distrubution. So yes you can change the weight distrubtion of your car via coilovers. Done it thurday when we went track testing with my uni.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2010
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  24. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    You see my point Tom. Read a review on adjusting the wedge of a Audi A4 few weeks back. They managed to get a 50/50% static weight distrubution on that via what I have just said.
    #24
  25. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    I understand what you are saying, but by applying height let's say to the front right as you put it, to increase load to your rear left, you are reducing the static weights to the other 2 wheels, which kinds of defeats the point of what you are trying to do.

    In the first place, it's not possible to get 50:50 weight distribution in an A3/S3, not when the engine is in the front of the car anyways, it's just not technically possible. How you can add weight to the back of the car by raising and lowering a car, wether front or rear is all news to me lol. Maybe the car you was working on had a balanced weight so 50:50 weight distribution is possible?
    #25
  26. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    I havent seen it done on a A3/S3 but seen it done a A4 so I do not see why not you cannot get 50% of the cars weight diagonally.

    Cross weight distrubution is the diagonally weight of the car. once you have adjusted one side front-rear you do the same on the other side till you get 50% front to rear diagonally.

    I might not be explaining this in a way which is understandable but if you raise on end of the car you apply more load to the other thus more % of the cars weight at the opposite end. If a A4 can get 50% static weight distrubution Im sure a S3/A3 can get close if not the same.

    Our race car is mid engine and this is the first thing we check when we take it out. It had a weight distrubution of 60/40 last time we when out but after some changes we got 50/50.

    You could say how can a mid engine car have 60% of the cars weight on the front wheels but if the car is not setup correctly it can.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2010
    #26
  27. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    Here is a little something if im completely confusing lol


    Setting Cross-weight:

    • Once static weight percentages are set, work on cross-weight percentages.
    • You cannot change the left or rear percentages by jacking weight around in the car, although this will change cross-weight.
    • Changing the ride height at any corner will change the cross-weight percentage.
    • If you raise the ride height at a given corner (put a turn in or add a round of wedge), the weight on that corner will increase, as will the weight on the diagonally opposite corner. The other two corners will lose weight.
    • If you lower the ride height at a given corner, that corner will lose weight as will the diagonally opposite corner. The other two corners will gain weight. This will not change the left-side or rear weight percentages.
    • To add weight to a given corner, raise the ride height at that corner or lower the ride height at an adjacent corner. For example, if your initial setup is 52 percent cross-weight, and you want 50 percent cross-weight, lowering the right front or left rear corner will decrease cross-weight percentage. You could also raise the left front or right rear ride heights to do the same thing.
    • It is best to make small changes at each corner, instead of a big change at one corner. This keeps the ride heights as close to ideal as possible. In the above example, to go from 52 percent to 50 percent cross-weight, try lowering the right front and the left rear one-half turn on the weight jack bolt or spring perch while raising the left front and right rear the same amount.
    • Always record the cross-weights and ride heights for reference at the race track in case changes are needed.
    • Measure control arm angles after each change. The angles are another way to set the suspension for the desired ride height and cross-weight percentage.
    • The distance from the ground to an inner suspension arm pivot point will also accomplish the above goal.
    • Remember that changes in stagger, tire pressures and springs will change the ride height and alter the cross-weight percentage.
    Change at the Track:

    • Make small changes at the track, and make only one change at a time.
    • If the car understeers or oversteers in only one direction, check the cross-weight percentage.
    One of the most important aspects of racing is having a good handling balance. Setting static weight distribution and adjusting cross-weight percentage is one way to assure good handling. Taking the time and making the effort always pay dividends
    Closer you get to 50% wedge the more neutral your car will be in both directions.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2010
    #27
  28. A3Tom
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    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    Corner weightings very common for track prep and can be a real advantage.

    Static weight distribution is a bit different to how BMW say they have the perfect '50/50'.
    #28
  29. A3Tomlin
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    A3Tomlin Drive it like you stole it

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    Do some research on this subject before simply stating stuff like this. Ride height changes can massively affect the corner weights of a car. I've designed, built and raced a single seater, Yamaha R6 powered racing car (which weighed in at just 250kg) where the engine was practically on top of the rear axle and yet we managed 50:50 weight front to back, simply by adjusting pushrod lengths (ride height) and spring rates.

    And while I'm at it, those droop limiters are a terrible idea, unless your aim is to break your uprights or tear out a piece of your strut mounts. You are loading the upright in a manner which it is not designed for (ie. the entire force of the spring and damper pulling on that tiny bit of metal) and you're pulling on a strut mount which is designed to specifically resist force in the opposite direction just millimeters away.

    As someone has said above, this WILL affect the total travel of your suspension and what's worse, will actually decrease traction over bumpy surfaces. This "solution" might be suitable for £500 cars which are only used on a billiard table flat drag strip, but even then, I would suggest using internal droop spacers inside the damper. Anyway around, this is a poor alternative to correctly set up suspension.
    #29
  30. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    That is exactly how we do it. Specify what spring rates we need as they also change ride height due to there compression, then we adjust the ride height accordingly via push rod to get the best static weight distrubution.

    If people who have coilovers took the time to set them up right, not just slamming it to the ground, their car could handle so much better.

    We also have a Yamaha R6 engine and one the dyno they rev so high its unbelieveable.
    #30
  31. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    With all due respect, we are talking about A3/S3's here are we not? Even in my quote, it says clearly A3/S3. Show me a road legal A3/S3 with 50:50 weight distibution**, and I will eat my words.

    **Not including S3's with a boot full of ICE! :)


    @Nattie, I see where we have our wires crossed here, I'm thinking of physical weight distribution, and not Cross Weight Distribution, which is an entirely different thing, and of which I'm not technically informed.
    #31
  32. Biggied
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    Biggied They called him mellow yellow.

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    Good shout with the corner weight explination lads, just remember that all your experience @ the track setting the cars up properly is no match for the ASN keyboard warriors that know a hole lot of f*ck all apart from the ***** they read about on the net which is about 2% acurate most of the time.

    Ewan.
    #32
  33. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    Well, thanks for your input, are you reading the same thread as me? There's some good discussion above your reply there, non of it in malice, so I don't know who you are reffering to as the 'keyboard warrior'. :zen:
    #33
  34. emery1990
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    emery1990 Active Member

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    Confusing ! lol Those metal things just seem like a bodged idea, getting your coilovers setup sounds far better!.
    #34
  35. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    I haven't fitted them to my S3 its something i did too my old FWD car years ago and seam to work well on the track so i just wanted to see if anyone has tried them
    #35
  36. martin g
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    martin g [censored]

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    I cannot believe that Audi didnt fit those as standard....what were they thinking...sooo important too!!! :faint:


    (yes..this post was full of sarcasm)
    #36

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