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fixed turbo, now car won't start! any help out there? i'm desperate!

Discussion in 'Diesel forum' started by shufti, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 2, 2006]
    hi all

    i have an a4 1.9 tdi (110) 1996, i had some recent power problems with the turbo not kicking in which was fixed by simply replacing a split hose after i was told it was the wastegate actuator! on my first test drive i got some black smoke but other than that all seemed well. when i pushed it hard i lost most power! i limped home tried again the following morning and the car wouldn't start!

    when i try to start the car the engine just spins and spins, there is absolutely no change in noise to indicate it may start. i had a recovery service come out and after a few elec tests he diagnosed a faulty diesel pump. great an £800 exchange part + fitting! when he left he told me he was not a diesel specialist which left me with some hope he may have got it wrong.......?

    is there anyway i can diagnose the pump to make sure and is there anything else it could be? i pulled the pump relay out and this stopped the pump switching so it seems to be getting electric.

    vag-com scan is currently picking up no engine faults, surely it would pick up a faulty pump?

    i'm pretty desperate for some advise if anyone is kind enough to take the time so i can get her back on the road. i'm worried as a faulty pump replacement would be hard to justify taking into acount the mileage and age!

    many thanks
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  3. foggy50361
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    foggy50361 New Member

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    [Jun 3, 2006]
    Not telling you to suck eggs here, but have you checked all intake hoses, to make sure that they are located correctly. When putting your foot down you may have popped a pipe It's happened to me a few times. Also not wishing any bad luck on you but have you checked the turbo shaft, pull the intake pipe off and give the compressor vain a wiggle, if it moves up/down it's U/S, the wife snapped her's on her Golf sport Much sadness and money spent
    #2
  4. mortones2
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    mortones2 New Member

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    [Jun 3, 2006]
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  5. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 3, 2006]
    thanks foggy50361,
    first thing i done was check all the pipes and they were all in place. i'll have a look at the turbo intake pipe and see what i find, not sure what the compressor vain is but may become clearer once exposed...? this relates more to my previous symptoms, would a problem here stop it starting?
    i have a wastegated turbo not vnt.

    thanks mortones2 ,
    a really usefull link, i recommend any newbie takes a look before posting up questions! on there it says that to diagnose the fuel pump i have to get the engine running then diagnose pump via vag-com. to me this is saying that even if the pump was knackered the engine would still start????? is this the case and i have i been misinformed by the AA man about the faulty pump?

    i'd heard a lot about the "relay 109" after checking my hoses i went hunting for it. i don't think i have one in my car! i have 5 relays under my steering wheel (this is where i was expecting to find it) and 3 relays in the ecu box. definately no 109!
    my engine code is afn, 1996 a4 1.9tdi (110)

    any further help or suggestions is really appreciated as i'm in the /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif without transport at the moment!
    thanks
    #4
  6. mortones2
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    mortones2 New Member

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    [Jun 3, 2006]
    Don't know whether this helps: from Freds. "Engine Power Supply Relay a.k.a. "Relay 109" Replacement - this is a very inexpensive part - about $20, and it is easy to replace yourself. On older models, it is located on the fuse panel, which is behind a cover on the bottom left corner of the instrument panel. The cover can be removed without tools and the relay can be pulled out of the fuse panel (note the location on the panel and the orientation of the pins on the relay for reference during installation of the new relay). On later models, it is located on the relay panel, which is behind a cover left of the steering column behind the instrument panel, which will require a Torx screwdriver to remove. Once the panel is removed, the replacement procedure is the same as for the older models."
    #5
  7. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 3, 2006]
    Did you disconnect any diesel pipes and was the vehicle low on fuel??

    I know this may sound very strange, but whilst you are turning the engine over get someone to spray WD40 up the air intake, after the air filter.

    This is how we used to get diesels started after removing fuel filters etc otherwise they would sit and turn all day long.

    HTH

    Dan
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  8. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 4, 2006]
    thanks for the reply guys
    i definately do not have a relay 109. i think it relates to my engine code AFN? it is one of the first things i looked for as i've read so much on them. the nentire dash has been removed and i checked both bays under dash and the 3 in the ecu box. the only other relays i believe i have in the car are the 2 in the abs pump.

    thanks Dan, i spent some time yesterday trying to fault find, turns out i'm not getting any fuel delivery before the fuel injection pump that was diagnosed faulty by the AA! i checked and changed the fuel filter which may have been blocked but made no differece. i then disconnected the fuel line at the top of the engine and the line was dry inside. i turned the engine over while line disconnected and nothing come through. attention then went to the pump in the tank which is accessed through the boot. i checked the elec feed to the pump by earthing the meter to ground and checking current on each of the 2 pump pins (there are 4 pins with 4 wires coming from the connection but only 2 terminals on the pump) i found one pin showing a reading of 6 volts but the other was dead. tests were the same while turning the engine over. i'm thinking this elec supply is the fault? i run a meter across the terminals on the pump and i was getting an ohm reading which was encouraging but am not sure what i am looking for to confirm that the pump is ok?

    can i run a positive and negative feed to the pump direct from the battery to check that it is working ok or will this do any damage?

    does anyone know how best to diagnose this pump or supply to it?

    i guess it's relay controlled? if i know the pump is ok i will try and find out which relay and replace it..... i thought vag-com would show faulty relay?

    thanks again for the help
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  9. mortones2
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    mortones2 New Member

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    [Jun 4, 2006]
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  10. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 5, 2006]
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  11. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 5, 2006]
    Spoke to my mate who works at Vw, he checked ETKa and came up with the following for you:

    Relay should be located: behind the fuse panel

    Relay number is: 6

    Relay should be stamped with following numbers: 372 (part no. 4do 951 253)

    he couldn't find the 109 relay for your model.
    #10
  12. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 6, 2006]
    thanks for that Dan, i'll take a look in a bit.

    not sure it's the relay but can always live in hope....... it's good to know though as that relay seems to be a problem and worth carrying a spare.

    trying to start update........
    on taking some advise i cleared the fuel line from the fuel tank all the way to the fuel filter and re syphoned the fuel feed through. i topped up the fuel filter with diesel and loosened the injector feed on the 2 centre cylinders. trying to start i'm getting some fuel to the opened cylinders but not as much as i was expecting. i would estimate that the fuel splashes up around 2-3" on both of the open cylinders, i was expecting a lot more than that. i was also getting a lot of white smoke from the exhaust.

    any suggestions where i go from here? should the fuel be coming through quicker? does this mean it's the injector pump that is faulty as diagnosed by the recovery man?

    any suggestions of what i could try are greatly appreciated. i've even had the immoboliser suggested, does this make sense? any further tests i can run?

    thanks
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  13. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 6, 2006]
    Tighten the injectors back up, now that you know there is fuel there.

    This is the point where WD40 comes handy! you have fuel in the injectors but no engine run, as before, spray into air intake after air filter but dont disconnect the MAf as it wont run very well, if at all.

    AS for the white smoke, not really sure what that is. The exhaust wont be hot enough to burn unburnt fuel, water burning in the engine / exhaust gives white smoke / steam off.
    I could be from the glow plugs, not hot enough to burn the diesel?
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  14. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 6, 2006]
    cheers Dan i'll give it a go.
    am i getting enough fuel though? i was expecting high presure at the injectors.
    the white smoke is not steam, it's quite strong smelling.
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  15. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 10, 2006]
    no joy with the wd40 trick. bloody thing still not starting! thanks for the advise though.

    has anyone an opinion as if enough fuel is going to the injectors? i was expecting fuel to be coming out under pressure when i loosened them and tried to start.
    #14
  16. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 11, 2006]
    THere won't be loads of fuel spilling out when loose, that appears normal, howver, it may be the fuel pressure is not high enough. Not enough pressure to inject it into the cylinders. When spraying WD40 up the intake and starting the car at the same time should get the engine 'ignite' and cracnk it a little but not run it.

    did that happen? Did you have the injectors tightened back up again? Check all of your fule lines, make suer there are no leaks or splits anywhere, this may be drawing in air aswell as fuel to the cylinders.

    Keep us posted on how you get on....or dont get on. Will try to help as much as poss.
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  17. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 11, 2006]
    cheers Dan

    all injectors were back up tight when trying to start with wd40. to be honest i was a bit tight with the wd40 as i wasn't sure that it was going in the right place!
    directly on the air filter is the maf filter, i removed the 4" pipe (approx) on the maf filter and sprayed down the pipe towards the turbo away from the maf, is this right or have i messed up?

    how much wd40?

    i think my car is some sort of freak...... i don't have the relays 109, 601 or 372! bay number 6 where it should be is blanked off and no wires run there.

    i pulled out the fuel cut off valve to see if it was clogged, no joy it was clean as a whistle. i turned the car over while it was out and not much fuel passed through just enough to fill up about an inch, i was expecting loads to come out. even on removal there was no fuel spillage. does this sound right?

    all advise is appreciated
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  18. bluslc
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    bluslc New Member

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    [Jun 12, 2006]
    I am having same problem as you mate, for no reason my car engine cut off while i was driving on saturday. same engine code as you AFN. have you checked or replaced Fuelcut off valve located on to diesel pump ?? i was going to order it today to see if that will solve this problem ........
    #17
  19. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 12, 2006]
    i removed it to see if it was clogged up and it was fine, to check that it's functioning ok run a meter to it (ground on the pump, positive on the wire on the valve) should be showing 12v when igniotion on then clicks off after about 3 seconds and goes back to 0v

    have you done same tests as me? opened injectors checked fuel etc? let me know what you find and how much fuel you have coming through as if we have same prob then it may help each other or even others with similar prob. hopefully Dan or someone else will come back and post up some expert advise and get us back on the road........

    if this thread doesn't bring a resolution i'm not too far from you if we can find a good (and sensibly priced) diesel mechanic....

    keep us posted
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  20. bluslc
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    bluslc New Member

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    [Jun 12, 2006]
    Yes I have done everything you and others suggested above..... I did open one of the injector and there was very little fuel was coming when turing the engine. i didn't take the valve off but i did check for 12v and thats ok..
    i will keep you posted
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  21. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 12, 2006]
    You will need to leave the maf in situ and spray from the start of the maf.
    Otherwise the engine will not detect the air flow and wont start or will run very poorly.

    Once you have got the engine running, make sure to clean your maf sensor as some oil from the spra may get on it, but shouldnt damaged the maf. Also, be careful when cleaning the maf. there is a post somewhere on how to clean the maf and the best product to use for the job.

    hopefully, with the maf connected to the intake pipe, you should have a running car!

    fingers crossed.

    Dan
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  22. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 13, 2006]
    cheers Dan

    i guess to take the air filter apart and spray from inside there towards the turbo through the maf then? how much wd40?
    on another note mate i noticed your thinking of getting vag-com on another forum. there's a lead going pretty cheap (your laptop must have a serial port though) i tried usb/pcmcia converters on my laptop without luck. i ended up buying a cheap old lappy just for vag-com. i'm running the same lead with downloadable vag and it does the job. just wish i knew how to use it to it's capacity.
    just a thought, i don't know if you wanted the all singing and dancing usb vag but i know it costs quite a bit. if interested i'll find out how much the lead is........
    let me know + how much wd40?
    cheers
    Ed
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  23. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 14, 2006]
    Keep spraying whilst someone is turning the engine over.....the wd40 should ignite easily and then help the diesel pull through. Providing everything else is ok with the car/fuel system.

    If the car hasnt started after a minute then stop, the fault must still be there and its a case of tracing all pipe work, checking and cleaning all electrical connectors.

    I have a usb vag-com lead already, split up from the ex so i no longer have access to a laptop and im a heavily modified desktop pc junkie! So i keep looking for a mega long usb extension lead! ha

    Dan
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  24. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 15, 2006]
    Dan, i've had a bit of progress!!!!!

    i eventualy got the car started (it took ages + a whole can of wd40) as soon as it it started it died immediately and i got **** loads of white/grey smoke from the exhaust, this happened on 3 occasions. i tried again and it started and i was able to rev for about 10 seconds untill i heard something in the engine pop, i checked it and noticed fuel coming out the big rubber hose on the induction.
    what happened next was pretty weird! the engine stuck in high revs and the accelerator pedal was also stuck, i pulled keys out of the ignition and the car was still running!!!!!!!! had to break the pedal to kill the power. very strange!
    anyway fixed the pedal so no new issues but noticed that the big rubber hose had a hole in it.
    i've ordered a high end performance silicone hose replacement for this part and while i'm at it i'll replace the smaller hoses also that are linked to the air filter, egr, n75, n109, wastgate actuator etc with the same grade silicone.
    i'll let you know what happens once i've fitted them and try again.
    do you reckon the fuel pump is ok as i was able to rev engine for those 10 seconds?
    cheers
    Ed
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  25. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 16, 2006]
    thats good news....at least getting somewhere! :beerchug:
    When revving the engine, were you fluctuating the revs or holding at a set rpm?? Fuel pump on idle appears to be ok if the engine revving but under load (when driving with lots of bodies in it etc) it may prove otherwise, but hopefully not.

    Good luck with the hoses and keep us posted.

    Oh, since using a full can of WD40 it would be wise to remove your maf and give it a thorough clean but be careful not to damage it in the process.



    Dan
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  26. bluslc
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    bluslc New Member

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    [Jun 19, 2006]
    Check timing.. as I found out even though my belt was replaced 6 months ago some how managed to jump, don't know why ? but its all fine and running.. good luck
    #25
  27. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 20, 2006]
    thanks for that, will post up all further progress to what gets me back on the road.........

    Dan

    i just replaced the silicone hoses but i can't get the bloody thing started again!

    this time when i try to start the engine only turns a couple of times and then stops crankiing with a high pitch wine. i tried the wd40 trick again but it doesn't turn over enough times to kick in and try to start. it done this before when i was trying to get started but only on occasion, now it seems to do it 95% of the time. without the engine turning over i got no idea if the hoses have made a difference!

    is this related or something entirely different?

    anyone want to buy a car?????
    #26
  28. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 20, 2006]
    MMMM,
    starter solenoid maybe on way out....its a possible cause.

    Have you tried tow-start?? I know its not a practical everyday solution but sometimes works.

    use 2nd gear not first. or is the car a tip/multi-tronic??

    I'm not due any visits to london in the near future either!!!!!! gutted.

    Will keep thinking for ya.

    Dan
    #27
  29. shufti
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    shufti Member

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    [Jun 21, 2006]
    cheers Dan

    car is manual. if i knew that the car was running and starting ok i'd give the tow start a go but not even sure if it will start with other problems than this latest issue.......
    i reckon wd40 will be needed again once i get around this starter solenoid thing? i definately think something is on it's way out as i said before it was stopping cranking with the high pitch wine intermitantly before but now it's got pretty bad. it seems to be better on the first initial try once the car has been left but quickly gets to a stage where it will crank for no more than a second before it whines.

    can you explain about the starter solenoid please? where is it? price to change etc? anything else it could be to give me these starting symptoms?

    i never expected a visit mate, i'm more than chuffed with the online advise. if you reckon a tow start i'll give it a go but wont i have the same issue every time i try and start in future?

    thanks for not giving up on me, i owe you a drink or 2!
    #28
  30. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jun 21, 2006]
    THe starter solenoid is attached to the starter motor itself, so it would be a full unit change. it extends the starter motor cog to the teeth on the flywheel to crank the engine over. Price varies but i'd recomend a scrappy.

    If u can get the car started with the new hoses on and it runs ok....then there shouldnt be any further issues with starting in the future unless something else fails.....


    Try a tow start and see whats happens...just dont over do it. i.e. miles and miles!! ha

    Keep us posted.....
    #29
  31. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jul 4, 2006]
    Any further news shufti???
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