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Fake Quattro's to real Quattro?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Grazam, Feb 18, 2012.

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  1. Grazam
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    Grazam Member

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    Hi all just an inquiry quickly.

    As the a3/s3 quattro system uses a Haldex to control the drive to the rear wheels the quattro badge in my mind is a lie, being as the car is FWD 90% of the time, where as the A4 has a permanent 4wd system, I was wondering if it would be possible to convert my A3TQS into a permanent 4wd car, if so what I would need such as prop shafts rear diff.... just after some opinions and advice.

    My second idea would be to see if it is possible to make the A3 into a permanent rear wheel drive (possibly use the haldex to bring the front wheels to make it 4wd when the rears spin, but have a cut out switch so I can control if the haldex is on or not. so i can drift/have fun).

    How much work is envolved.... how much its going to cost me or your ideas on the matter such as seeing if bmw drivetrain fits..

    Any thoughts

    Graham
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  2. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    I love your thinking, you and I are clearly on the same wave length.

    IMO, stupid idea though :( Sorry bud, but it's just never going to be viable or actually happen :(
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  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    That's disconcerting....

    <tuffty/>
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  4. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    The QST 2004 built RS4 engined S3 was a 'proper' quattro as it had the RS4 running gear underneath.
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  5. dan_a3quattro
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    dan_a3quattro Member

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    :wtf: i thought my a3 1.8t quattro sport is 4wd all the time! well thats just pissed on my fire! lol
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  6. MUSH
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    MUSH MUSH Developments Ltd.

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    Mehehe
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  7. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Proper quattro has the engine mounted longitudinally, rather than transverse like the A3.

    Not impossible to convert, as shown by the aforementioned S3 with the biturbo motor, but certainly not bolt in either.
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  8. Gops
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    Gops 6th gear @7000rpm

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    Why don't you just get a blue haldex controller of you want more power sent to the back? Cheaper as well ain't it?
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  9. a3tdi2001
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    a3tdi2001 Member

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    Does the Haldex system only kick in when it detects slippage? That means the car's FWD 99% of the time?
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  10. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    Yeah, not exactly 99% of the time...But yes that's what it means.

    ALL quattro 8L's use that system...My views on the system are far from constructive though haha.
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  11. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    It's a bit more complex than that, this is one way the Haldex will engage, it will also engage based on throttle position, e.g full throttle it will lock it 100%, giving it 4wd off the line. It's basically designed to help fuel economy, Torsen setups of the S4 and above with permanent 4WD are much heavier on fuel than their 2wd models.
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  12. Grazam
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    Grazam Member

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    yea I know it probably wont ever happen but I was just wondering if it had be looked into before on the 8l model and if it wasn't too expensive I might have thought about doing it.

    I think the haldex engages the rear diff when it detects the front wheels skidding more than 1/7th of a turn.

    How much is a blue haldex controller and what does it change from the oem one?
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  13. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I spent a whole weekend once being told how epic the haldex system was, then promptly got into said car, and within a mile it had been stuffed into an armco on the Ring at 80mph.

    Wasn't so cool then. I didn't crash with FWD, and I went quicker :p

    (Yes, this post was hugely helpful, and not at all trying to start another argument :))
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  14. Grazam
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    Grazam Member

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    lol I just think a RWD a3 would be awesome fun
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  15. Alex C
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    Alex C Active Member

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    i seem to spend the whole time reading this forum being told how awesome FWD is
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  16. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    I know we've had this discussion many times, but do you think it is of benefit for it to lock when at WOT?

    Agreed for getting traction off a launch it is better than FWD ten fold, but by the time you take into account the taller gearing on a FWD car the two cancel each other out at low speed (under 45mph or up to the top of second gear). My car will do 45 in first, an S3 will do 35 at 7K in first from every video I've seen and S3 I've driven. An A3 will do 77MPH in second, where an S3 will do 56mph. So taking into account the longer gear, and assuming the FWD driver can actually control his right foot...How is the haldex of any benefit when at WOT? can we agree at WOT you would be looking for performance and performance only? From a performance point of view I cannot see a single benefit to a competent driver when comparing Haldex to a two wheel drive.

    I know I've posted this video 100x, and I am more than aware that there is wheel spin...But this was filmed on 4 year old 30 quid a corner budget 16's. I've knocked it down to 5.6 seconds on my 17's. But even with the wheel spin, if you can find me a quicker accelerating stock turbo haldex 8L I will eat my hat on video and upload it.

    This video was timed at 5.8 on GPS and comes out as 5.81 seconds when timed in movie maker. As I'm sure you guys can imagine, with a better gear change it is a LOT quicker.




    I fully appreciate and understand that there is far more to owning an S3 than outright speed and acceleration, and I totally agree that they are a much more refined drive than an A3. But I personally think they are a massive disappointment for an S car when it comes to performance. UNLESS they have more than 300BHP.

    IMO, they should have made the S3 FWD like the LCR and kept the performance hindering haldex to the TQS.

    The constant argument is that an S3 can put the power down and make more use of it, but as my video and constant preaching shows...An A3 CAN put the power down and even when it doesn't it's still quicker.

    If the WOT reference wasn't used, and the performance connection to Haldex wasn't mentioned I'd have stayed in my box. But as there are people in this thread questioning Haldex I think my input is structured and valid? Not trying to rock the boat, just put across a reasoned point.
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  17. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    They were about £650 when I bought mine about 18 months ago.
    As you say, OEM works on detecting wheel slip. I believe the upgraded one just does so quicker by using the throttle sensor more than the ABS sensor to detect slip. So if you floor the throttle the uprated controller knows you might wheelspin so shifts power to the back wheels immediately, rather than waiting the extra fraction of a second until the front wheels actually do slip and then do it.
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  18. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    What's this come from Jardo? I was simply explaining how the Haldex works, I never mentioned anything about 2wd vs 4wd, nor even mentioned anything A3 related, or even stated that S3's are better than A3 1.8T's??!?

    Whilst I'm open to personal opinion, it not helpful that you have to make it a point that your A3(or prawn's for that matter) is a quick car out on the track everytime someone mention the the two letter 'S' and '3' or the word 'Haldex'.

    Let start off with what Audi had intended out cars to be from the outset, Audi A3 1.8T FWD with 150bhp, not 200+ with tweaked suspension, uprated brakes and bit of interior missing. Tell me what a great car a 1.8T is out the box? No fireball is it?!

    S3 out the box, 210bhp with Haldex 4WD. Why does it have 4wd I here you say? Because it's an 'S' car, all Audi S3/4/5/6/8(s) all happen to have 4WD, you should know, you're a car salesman FFS! :laugh: If it didn't have 4wd(or fake quattro as some call it), they would have just called it an A3 quattroSport S-Line plus!
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  19. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    Is it just me that doesn't give a sh1t what jardo thinks about quattro? Hasn't everyone heard it all before? Yawn.....
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  20. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Same old bull**** and videos that only prove a 0-60 the same as a stage1 s3.
    Woopee****indoo.
    Your argument had come from nowhere.

    Jardo is king of the trolls.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
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  21. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger Regional Rep

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    I'm fairly sure r8 uses a haldex system. And also used on some Volvo AWD models. It's hardly a lie, it just doesn't drift... It's still a fwd based car. If you want to drift buy yourself a rwd jap car or BMW. Want something more hardcore get an evo or Subaru. You seem to be expecting a lot from what, at the time, was audi's compact model.

    Conversions are possible, most things are possible if you have a silly amount of money.

    Is it me or are these threads 2 to a penny?
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  22. VAG-Slag
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    VAG-Slag Active Member

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    I think Jardo has “S inadequacy”, bit of a chip on his shoulder, something to prove... you know, like short man syndrome or men withsmall penis's... maybe he has them all!? Granted, FWD is lighter, gets more power down bla bla bla but as funk_junky said, we've all heard it a million times over, you're boring me........ Anyway Jardo, how you getting on in that snow mate? ;-)Eitherway... someone make a RWD S3, I want to see an S3 in D1 up there withthe japs! ! ! :s3addict: In theory if you just removed the front drive shafts and possibly installed a couple of LSD's would it not be RWD? Maybe find some way of completely locking the haldex clutch, just weld it together, bodge it... surely someone could do this back yard ghetto modding style!?
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
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  23. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    I love how I pop up and make a factual argument with regards to Haldex, and because you guys don't have the ability to prove me wrong it descends to pettyness.

    I had no problems in the snow at all thanks, I have quality tyres with good tread and full use of my brain. No need for AWD from me, and I've been in feet of the stuff. Yes RWD S3 NEEDS to be done, maybe a job for the Russians? :p Whilst we are on the subject of two wheel drive S3's look what Audi did to their 8P race car to make it quicker - Audi S3 Turned Race car for the “The Green Hell”

    There is much more than a 0 to 60 time, if you want to do 60 - 155 a good stage one car will still be quicker. You say about it only being the same as stage one S3 Karl, but go find me one which does it in less than 6?

    You're right Jo, as standard the A3 is far from a quick car. But nor is the S3. I am talking purely from a modified point of view, both an A3 and an S3 with the same stage one or two modifications, the A3 will always be a quicker car. So what is the point in Haldex? I am NOT just trying to say that my car is quicker than yours, but I can't see the valid benefits of having Haldex...So what are they? I am not just talking about on a track, I am a terrible track driver. But if you think that any S3 would be quicker in the real world you're wrong. Or if it is you need to reassess your driving abilities. I didn't even have a RARB fitted st ADI Jo, my car runs with a full leather interior without a single piece of trim removed and is NOT some all singing all dancing well setup beast. It's had a lot of money spent on it, but IMO it is just a good stage two car. Would you guys say that an LCR is an inferior car for not having Haldex?


    My argument is valid and factual, and until somebody can counter it with facts and figures it will always be there. As I said I am not trying to rock the boat, but every time a debate about it gets going and opinions come out there is somebody who takes it too far and it ends in tears and a thread lock. Can we try and talk about it this time without everybody getting silly? After all, this is what forums are all about! :p
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
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  24. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Just my 2 penneth about this whole malarky.

    1) It rains 190 days a year in Britain, and with Stage 2+ (360bhp), I can let my misses drive our car with total confidence that she won't end up in a ditch. In my Stage 2 Leon Cupra R (270bhp-ish) I didn't have half that confidence.

    2) A neighbour has a new Focus RS. I took him out in our car in the wet. On our return journey back home I took him through a roundabout (a largish one), at a fair pace and his arms were all over the place holding on to any available trim handles. He couldn't believe the car could grip in the wet, and he said 'I'd have had an accident in my car if I'd have gone through that roundabout like that'

    3) At Castle Combe back in 2008 (from memory), I was following an S4 (turbo version - B5?) up the start finish straight. As I focused on the upcoming left dog leg corner at the end of the second part of the main straight I saw a wet line on the road. Then the S4 pulls to the inside just ahead of the corner and I see a big oil spot just ahead of my braking point. As the oil goes right across the track there isn't a way to avoid it, so I start to brake hard and I inevitably hit the oil and start to skid. At this point I'm thanking my lucky stars there is only grass ahead of me, but as I start to steer into the corner I can feel the Haldex system going mad under the car trying to sort out the wheels. Somehow, and god knows how, I made it round the corner without going off. My skill??? No way, I'm an idiot. Had to be the Haldex that got me out of jail that day.

    I think the Quattro / Haldex arguments are over-rated. The Haldex isn't a different system, Audi just choose to call their cars that can drive all 4 wheels Quattro. It's the way company's brand. I don't think informed Haldex owners are under any delusion that they have proper 4wd, but then most of the time they don't need it in Waitrose car park.

    95% of the time Haldex is extra weight, and doesn't always add to the mix in general day to day driving. But there are some days (e.g when it snows / rains really heavily), or the unexpected happens it steps in seamlessly to sort most things out. I think it depends what you want, but because I don't live my life a second at a time, a tidy safety net is more appealing than lighting up my front tyres at every junction in the wet.
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  25. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    No, you're not alone.
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  26. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    Clearly not talking about yourself there Bob, you were all for the S3 slaying last night!

    I've only driven one 8P S3 and it was DSG and totally standard, so I can't really comment. I should think there are a fair few revisions on newer S3's? And a lot more power, which makes it worth while.

    I do agree with your point though, not sure about the Focus RS mind you, I have driven a couple of Mk2 focus RS's and they are incredible. Never really drove the 8P in anger so can't really say.
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  27. Grazam
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    Grazam Member

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    Im sorry if I started an argument but I was not saying that the system is bad I like having that thought of being safe in rain at more than 50mph and I also like the thought that it returns to fwd after it has pulled away keeps the top speed and doesnt use as much fuel as a constant 4wd system. But I was wondering about RWD a3 or a constant 4wd a3 like the b5 s4. As Aragorn said it has been done with the bi turbo.
    Does anyone know what audi's 2.4 or 2.7 engine was like and how much work I'm looking at to fit one. Just simply like if I need full transmission system.
    I just want to do something different with my car just for shuts and giggles. Im only 21 and an apprentice at the moment so it may take me an extra month or 2 to get the cash together

    Thaks

    Graham
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  28. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    I've never driven an A3, but i have switched from my mums chipped 1.8T A4 into my standard TQS A4, and while the chipped 1.8T was a little quicker than mine (they've both got ~180hp but the FWD is obviously lighter), it was nowhere near as useable.

    In the quattro i can give it full throttle off a roundabout in the wet and it just grips, do the same thing in the FWD and it lights the wheels up as you turn into the exit and then your understeering off in the wrong direction.

    some might say thats because i cant drive, or because i need to modulate the thorttle or whatever, but thats not the point. The point is that in my Quattro i can deploy all 180hp and drive round the corner accellerating flat out. In the FWD i cant, and furthermore i darent push it as hard as a result, i simply end up avoiding the situation and not booting it off roundabouts.

    I've even had mums 1.8T light up the wheels in a streight line, becasue one of the wheels hit a drain cover, and also lit up the wheels drawing away from various roundabouts in a brisk manner. None of it driving any different to the way i drive in the Quattro, its just that in the FWD it simply wont do what i ask of it.

    I find that while the Quattro is going to be slightly slower than a FWD with equivalent power due to the weight penalty, its so much more useable that i'd happily take that performance hit, because driving a car is not just about one factor such as accelleration, its about the whole package. Perhaps as a finely tuned track toy its acceptable (most recent BTCC cars are after all FWD), but as an everyday road car Quattro IS better.

    Now wether any of that really applies to he A3 i dont know, becuase ofcourse the A3 system acts like FWD most of the time, and the quattro engaging would be more of an intervention after slip occurs rather than stopping it ever happen in the first place. But i'd absolutely take Torsen Quattro over a FWD car any day.
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  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    As i pointed out in my first post, Torsen Quattro cars have the engine mounted longitudinally.

    A3's are mounted side to side like so:

    [​IMG]

    Whereas A4's have the engine mounted like this:

    [​IMG]


    Its a massive difference, and you will require EVERYTHING to be reworked. You'd be just as easy trying to fit the engine into a Ford Escort as you would trying to convert your A3 to Torsen Quattro.
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  30. woking rob
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    woking rob Member

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    No way is the haldex system ****, u think u could run the power of some of these cars in fwd? And in rwd ur gonna need to b off ur face on red bull to keep up with the reaction times u will need to stop it facing the wrong way, ok it does need more power to the rear when driving it aggressive but to have it 4x4 all the time isn't worth it, this system seems to have all plus's, grip in aggressive driving (arse out iv u know how to drive it) and not to juicy like all the other 4x4
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  31. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    With all due respect Kev, I think that's your fault. My car spins the wheels in first if floored, and second if floored in the dry. If the throttle is modulated then the pick up and pull out of corners is great. To simplify my argument, given an equal power to weight I believe the A3 wouldn't have enough power to spjn the wheels up anyway in the hands of a competent driver. So even then the Haldex powered car might not even have that much of an upper hand.

    I will agree whole heartedly that Haldex is a brilliant safety net when things go wrong, I would never argue something as clear cut and obvious as that. But apart from Wellys car I am yet to go in an exciting S3 which would IMO give a similar spec A3 a performance run for it's money. And we all know Wellys car is above the magic 300, I get the feeling Westys car could be the closest in terms of performance but we are yet to find out.

    Rob, are you aware of the power increase the S3 would need to have to match a 220bhp (easily achievable St1 figure) A3? IMO the 8L/Mk4 chassis can come with hybrid/K04 power figures well when in the hands of a decent driver. Personally I have been in two K04 Mk4's and a K04 A3 and whilst they were lively, with good tyres they were coping well. 270bhp wouldn't be too much of a problem for FWD and decent rubber.

    We will see when a certain person gets back from R Tech with a power to weight of champions how well it copes.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
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  32. woking rob
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    woking rob Member

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    If u want it fwd take out the fuse for the haldex, watch out tho
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  33. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    Oh not all this rubbish again!

    How can quattro be "a lie" when it's still from audi and designed by audi. Fair play if another car manufacturer release a car and called it quattro and it was a copy of audi's system, that would be a lie.

    Yes this quattro isn't the same as the original quattro that won all those rally championships. This quattro is a tamed down version which is probably cheaper for car production and works well on the road.

    I don't think that the argument is that these cars are quattro but it should be that these cars aren't 4x4.

    Feel free to come back, argue, moan, post link in a rediculously long post of tosh, say how good your mates car is, if audi ever rename their quattro system to 4x4.

    And Karl how have you measured the speed of your *****? :)
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  34. Reesy
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    Reesy Active Member

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    Yawn again.
    Having followed a 2wd A3 with about the same power as my Tqs it was obvious that it was a bit quicker as it weighed less, but as soon as we got to a roundabout or set of traffic lights, my fake Quattro made the difference, as it did when the 2wd tried to follow me from a junction in the wet. All this bs about modulating your throttle position and all that is a valid argument from the 2wd guys, but for us with cars that the 4wd occasionally steps in, there isn't a much need to.

    And on a side note after being taken for a spin in bumble last night at +3 degrees, with it raining and the roads a bit greasy, I am more then impressed with the haldex system.
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  35. scoobyra
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    scoobyra It's not f@cking ORANGE!!!!!

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    Just read this thread and I'm not sure why everyone is making such a big deal over it? I've had an A3T and a standard S3 AND a 349bhp S3, all drive completely different!

    I'll agree that the fwd car WILL handle well, and on the track, will drive better than a standard S3. The haldex doesn't make any difference at all. However.....this is a completely different case with over 300bhp (as mentioned previously in this thread) and an uprated haldex.

    My 349bhp car drives like a 4wd car due to the haldex recognising full boost and therefore providing power to all of the wheels when needed.......it WILL power slide and will also grip like f... when needed regardless of road conditions and at VERY silly speeds.

    As for fwd cars, my ex's 20v 125bhp lardarse MK4 Golf out drove EVO's and Impreza's at Brands hatch in the pooring rain as they couldn't get the power down!!

    S3 Quattro.....Proper 4 Wheel Drive?? NOPE!!!
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  36. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    untill anyone talks off the line acceleration :p in the wet



    lol @ this thread.

    Your all slow fekkers anyhow.. hehe

    c ya
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
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  37. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    Are you fishing me Bill? :p

    My offer still stands, find a quicker 0 to 60 from an S3 on stock turbo and I will video myself eating a hat and upload it.

    Surely that has to be worth 20mins of somebodies time? HAHA
    #37
  38. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    4wd, making even the worst drivers looks like Heros.






    A joke before anyone throws their toys out the pram.
    #38
  39. AARON77
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    AARON77 Active Member

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    It's simple lads
    ive organised a day at the strip on the 1st of april
    so far we have 16 cars going
    We're meeting at ace cafe were you could start to put your all your different opinions to the test
    with a good ole tare up to Shakespeare county raceway! Then have a good ole fashioned shoot out up the strip!
    you will have plenty of opportunity to work out which is better on the road and up the strip!
    so what you say lads
    if it proves nothing it will at least be a great day

    The cars so far are
    a3 Quattro gt28
    s3 gt30
    s3 gt30 stroked
    golf ko4
    A3 ko4
    A3 ko4 prawn (maybe)
    A3 track car 8p
    s3 8p
    m5 v10 580 bhp
    m3 v8
    Subaru
    corrado 600bhp
    seat cupra

    A few others that are not confirmed

    This will be a perfect bit of willy waving fun lads
    get back to me if your interested
    ive all the entry tkts which are £10
    then you have to buy your sprint pass on the day £18 ( unlimited runs)
    #39
  40. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    you are comparing apples and pears... modded to stock.. duh!
    feel fast, lap castle combe in under 1m14s and i will be impressed

    you seem to be under the illusion I give a monkeys what you think or rant about.. lmao

    funny thread.. keep up the good work
    #40
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