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Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Kevint, Jun 19, 2005.

  1. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    What a farce /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    Kev.
    #1
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  3. fallmonk
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    fallmonk Turbo Sport

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    yip watching and waiting! ,
    doesnt look good ,
    michellen are gona get thete arses draged in courts for this!
    #2
  4. TDI-line
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    TDI-line Uber Post Whore

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    So whats happened then guys?
    #3
  5. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    I'm disgusted - If I was there I'd want my money back.

    I agree with those that have pulled out, safety first, I blame the management of it!

    Kev.
    #4
  6. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    Let me guess the Sun's headline tomorrow:

    Formula Farce

    Kev.
    #5
  7. DaveACQ20v
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    DaveACQ20v Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    F1asco
    #6
  8. Remster
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    Remster Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    Well that was fun. I think Ferrari and the FIA have to accept as much responsibility as Michelin. they both stopped the race happening. Michelin were only erring on the side of caution, the FIA and Ferrari blocked the only thing that would have let the race happen. think i'll stick with moto gp thanks.
    #7
  9. jungle
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    jungle Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    I think the track / rule changes proposed by Michelin were unacceptable. Tough /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif Michelin I say.
    #8
  10. CJ A4
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    CJ A4 Active Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    Yep farce indeed Michelins totally to blame...their tyres were not up to the job end of story!

    Dave nice headline F1asco /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_2.gif
    #9
  11. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    I don't think Michelin should take all the blame at all.

    Kev.
    #10
  12. [Jun 19, 2005]
    I think Michelin are entirely to blame.. The track is known, predictable, and Bridgestone proved that a tyre is perfectly possible to make suit - As Michelin admitted there is a FLAW in the construction, the whole political situation could have been avoided! It is a team sport comprising contributed effort from many different people and organisations - any one of which could let down the rest of the team. In this case it was Michelin, and the extreme result of affecting 7 teams! Why on earth should the track have been modified to suit an unsafe tye? Thats ridiculous! It would have been far better to allow Michelin to introduce and run a modified 'safer' tyre - this would not have given an unfair advantage to anyone, and would have allowed the spirit of the race to continue. I agree that today was very very bad for F1, and as usual the politics could have been handled better - but the bottom line is a failure by MICHELIN.. If a team were supplied with unsafe brakes, or aero parts, or exploding engines, should the other teams have to change the rules or the track to accomodate this? No! its a supplier problem! it was just bad cos it affected so many...
    #11
  13. Khufu
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    Khufu Active Member

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    [Jun 19, 2005]
    Total joke indeed. The rules have been made/changed to both reduce costs and INCREASE the spectical for the paying public. Under this the rules have failed, the situation dictated a bending of the rules to let Michelin and if they wished Bridgestone to change the choice of tyres. Bridgestone of course had previous race data of the altered track situations. The new tyres could have been used and if required, the qualifying could have be redone on the Sunday as has been done in most on the meets this season.
    #12
  14. AndyMac
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    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    Totally agree, Michelin completely at fault. Changing the track was never an option. What next? Jordan moaning cause their car isn't as fast on a long straight, so put some roundabouts on the track at Monza?
    I think they should still have raced, might have livened up the sport a bit.
    #13
  15. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    I don't blame the drivers though, I wouldn't race on sub standard tyres either.

    I heard spectators were throwing bottles onto the track? that true?
    #14
  16. MikeA3
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    MikeA3 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    I heard that spectators were throwing stuff onto the track too, Apparently 100's of them walked out before the race started and loads more before it had finished!!!!

    There were a couple of race fans giving their views at the end.

    One guy was from NY, he said that he has paid about a months salary to go to the race track and have a VIP pass for the two days. He wasn't impressed at all. - poor b@stard

    I think F1 should have changed the rule for the race - or at least made everyone race on the same tyres.

    Could they not have used similar tyres to the ones they use on Indycars which use the same track?
    #15
  17. CJ A4
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    CJ A4 Active Member

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    How can they make everyone use the same tyres whenever each team is contractually bound to their tyre supplier!
    #16
  18. MikeA3
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    MikeA3 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    Just an Idea CJ,

    IMO It was Michelin's product that was at fault so I don't see why they shouldn't suffer the consequences.

    I understand that they have a contract with most of the teams but there must have been some way of getting more than six cars out on the track, I can't believe that such a large tyre manufacturer doesn't make a tyre that is suitable for this track.

    It's a shame that this happened especially as F1 is trying to make a name for itself in the states, it's unlikely to recover from this amount of bad publicity.
    #17
  19. Kevint
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    Kevint Active Member

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    Agree it's michelins fault that their tyre was not upto the job - (although there is still this debate about the new surface causing higher tempreture in the tyres than experiane before) - but it's the fault of others that we never had a race yesterday.

    Kev.
    #18
  20. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    Michelin at fault, and then they don't want to agree to a penalty, i.e. race from behind the Bridgestone guys, with Barcelona spec tyres they could have flown in on Saturday.

    Ferrari stuck to their guns, because they had a similar problem in a race earlier this season, and michelin teams didn't help on that one.

    Bad day for F1 in the states, as they're not that keen on it anyway. This is doing it no favours what so ever.

    Problem started by Michelin, and could have been sorted, but the FIA must take the blame for it not being.
    #19
  21. [Jun 20, 2005]
    Very Interesting interview with Max Mosley (President of FIA) on the radio this morning.

    Summary of his points:

    Re: The tyres themselves -
    All teams are supposed to have two different tyres for every race. The high performance tyre, and the safer but slower backup tyre (Inters.) The Michelin teams did not have their backup tyre at this race meeting. The bridgestone runners did have their backup tyre, (but did not need them) .Michelin at fault.
    Bridgestone consistently produce tyres of a more 'safe' nature but without the performance of the michelin - which adversely affects the bridgestone runners as we have seen at many other tracks, but meant that the Bridgestone runners were ok on Sunday.

    Re: Alternative proposal:
    apparently Michelin proposed that if their cars ran a bit slower through the relevant corner, their tyres would be safe for the duration. This was ACCEPTED by the FIA, who said they could indeed race under that condition, and that the speeds would be monitored. HOWEVER the Michelin teams collectively REFUSED this unless the bridgestone teams were given the same speed restriction!!


    Re: the 'chicane' proposal -
    There are apparently masses of steps and approval procedures before ANY modification of any track in the calendar, to ensure consistent homologation etc. and these are written into the F1 rules. Had they failed to follow these steps, and there had been an accident of any sort, his only explanation to a US court of enquiry would have been that 'some teams had brought the wrong equipment' - a legally indefensible situation. Plus to do this minutes before the race allows no time for the required setup changes that may be necessary and affects all racers, not just michelin runners.

    ------
    My final 2p worth:
    Imagine two Premiership teams turning up for an important game.. and it looks like rain.. and one team has brought boots that make their players slip up a lot in the wet.. why should the other team be penalised?? For F1, they have invested millions and are there to race.. The losers were the fans as well as the sport, but I am convinced that Michelin are to blame..
    #20
  22. CJ A4
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    CJ A4 Active Member

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Just an Idea CJ,

    IMO It was Michelin's product that was at fault so I don't see why they shouldn't suffer the consequences.

    I understand that they have a contract with most of the teams but there must have been some way of getting more than six cars out on the track, I can't believe that such a large tyre manufacturer doesn't make a tyre that is suitable for this track.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Apparently Michelin tyre design even across the whole range was affected. As each team even though they are all Michelin's are still very different tyres from each other. 11 different sets of tyres from Michelins range were affected by the 9 degree corner and surface design. There was talk of flying new designed tyres over from France on the Friday which they should of done but apparently these new tyres have never been tested and could of been equally dangerous. I feel that Michelin are now to face extensive lawsuits from all the teams and more so the sponsors of each team and i feel that their future in F1 will be questionable to say the least. A very sad day for F1 as a whole. What annoyed me is that drivers were willing to take the risk and drive but had to follow team orders. As was said, is F1 a sport or a business obviously the latter applied yesterday. Lets just watch this space.
    #21
  23. fallmonk
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    fallmonk Turbo Sport

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    [Jun 20, 2005]
    Lets just remember the race took place in the land of the lawsuit! !
    Any crash that could have posibly hit a stuard or even worse a fan would have resulted in MAJOR lawsuits, and michelin would have been sued rotten!
    Also i think the teams where covering there arses remember wot happened to williams , when Ayrton Senner ,The Williams team was entangled for many years in a court case with the Italian prosecutors over manslaughter charges, but they were found not guilty and no action was taken against Williams. In 2004, the case was re-opened.!!!!!!
    #22
  24. neversaydie
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    neversaydie Post Whore

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    [Jun 21, 2005]
    The whole politics behind F1 now stinks.

    Everyone is to blame here from the drivers to the teams, from the FIA to the tyre manufactures. As some may know they are all entangled in a long lasting bitter dispute, this was just another day in F1 for the parties involved. Unfortunately the dispute is now spilling out onto the track and ruining the sport for the fans.

    Its time that certain people resign within the FIA and that a certain team stop instigating problems. We all know who they are...
    #23
  25. imported_mustwin1
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    imported_mustwin1 Guest

    [Jun 21, 2005]
    I can't see how it was Ferrari's fault, not this time. I detest the team now, or at least the management. However, this time they did not do anything wrong. At the end of the day, they turned up with a car (inc) tyres which was legal and would go the distance, the other teams did not. I race myself, and I would be pretty fecked off if I made my kart legal but my competitors didn't, only for the rules to be broken to allow the other teams to race against me, rules are rules and if they are broken without punishment, where would we end up?

    The FIA and the 7 teams should of thrashed something out, just to give the fans something to watch. Although if the fans knew the teams weren't really racing for points, then the race wouldn't hold the same appeal. Fag sponsorship ends soon, the teams need to find an alternative income, now they've just /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif off the USA, great move guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bang.gif

    But the fact remains Michelin cocked up big time, they did admit to the cock up which was good, not sure the Michelins will be flying off the shelves in the USA now though.....
    #24
  26. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Jun 21, 2005]
    It's all a conspiracy.

    One giant orchastrated PR exercise. What gets more publicity, giving tyres to poor nations of the world that no-one has heard about, or causing an F1 race to have controversy in front of a few hundred million viewers???
    #25
  27. imported_mustwin1
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    imported_mustwin1 Guest

    [Jun 21, 2005]
    What Michelin wanted to broadcast to the world that they couldn't make safe tyres???!!!
    #26
  28. neversaydie
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    neversaydie Post Whore

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    [Jun 21, 2005]
    To Audi5e:

    conspiracy theorists ----> that way

    Reality <------ this way

    To Murdoch:

    This day in F1 history was and is a knock on effect from all the troubled waters of the last few months. Nothing new here.

    Ferrari are to blame - just as much as FIA are and the other teams (remember, the Michelin tyre incident is just one eppisode of the ongoing disputes).

    Ferrari should re-visit there contract with the FIA and get rid of the right to Veto against other teams. They take way too much media publicitity funds, way more, if Ferrari were to even loose the season, they would get more monies from the FIA than the winners of that particular season - just because the FIA think they sell better.

    Makes me sick!
    #27
  29. imported_mustwin1
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    imported_mustwin1 Guest

    [Jun 21, 2005]
    NSD, all the teams signed up to the Concord Agreement.........

    Ferrari are blamless in this incident, signing up to the Concord agreement does not make them accountable for the other teams not being able to race.
    #28
  30. Khufu
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    Khufu Active Member

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    [Jun 21, 2005]
    I kinda agree with NSD. Everybody is to blame to a certain extent. The FIA are full of weird and wonderful ideas at times, maybe they are trying to look in control with all the threat of the break away group by coming down firmly.

    I too dislike the politics of Ferrari but they are certainly not to blame for the weekend.

    The reduction of speed would only work if all teams were adhearing to it - you'd be left with the marshall blue flagging the michelin drivers when a bridgestone driver was approaching from behind on a very fast corner where you are unlikely able to see anything in the mirrors. The chicane idea wouldn't have been as dangerous, some of the alterations in the past havent made things safer and they were 'planned and approved'

    I think the FIA deliberately took an intractable position to show who's boss at the expense of the fans
    #29
  31. imported_mustwin1
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    imported_mustwin1 Guest

    [Jun 23, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]


    I too dislike the politics of Ferrari but they are certainly not to blame for the weekend.

    I think the FIA deliberately took an intractable position to show who's boss at the expense of the fans

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agreed (although not sure you agree with NSD though, at least when talking about Ferrari)
    #30
  32. imported_nadger
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    imported_nadger Guest

    [Jun 23, 2005]
    im not a big F1 fan (i like the moto gp, now thats real entertainment) but a mate of mine is into F1 big time, he reckons its just part of an ongoing hidden agenda to discredit Bernie Eccleston and his monopoly, there are those who are trying to form an alternative a bit like the champions league have done for football. and what better place to stick it to him than North America.

    ***dont have a go at me im just passing on the thoughts of an avid fan***
    #31
  33. Khufu
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    Khufu Active Member

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    [Jun 23, 2005]
    There is a lot to be said about that, the car manufactory's want better share of the revenue and more say in the running and feel that after the concord agreement is over want to go their separate ways. This would leave Ferriari to race against themselves at this point. There is also another group that want to race with cars that are all the same. This is being put forward mainly by Saudi Companies to run at the end of the GP season not in competition with it.
    #32

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