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Ecotek CB-26P Valve

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Grant, Feb 1, 2004.

  1. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 1, 2004]
    Has anyone fitted an Ecotek CB-26P Valve to their A3/S3?

    Supposedly it will increase performance, but more inportantly for me (because I use my S3 everyday) it claims to increase MPG figures.

    After spending some time reading about it, I decided to go for the "Chrome Combo" version which includes a Piper Cross filter/silencer. At £85, I thought it has to be worth a bash - and the chrome finish will compliment my chrome AmD Viper DV!

    Has anyone else tried one of these valves?

    Ecotek

    [​IMG]
    #1
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  3. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 2, 2004]
    Grant:

    WASTE OF MONEY!

    Forget it...useless!
    #2
  4. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 2, 2004]
    Had one on my old car and it did bugger all apart from make a weird gurgly noise on overrun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Rich
    #3
  5. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 2, 2004]
    Cheers guys. Luckily my mate who does a fair bit of long journeys still wants one, so I'll sell him mine.
    #4
  6. DavidR
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    DavidR Active Member

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    [Feb 3, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Ess_Three said:
    So, you'll pay good money for a car with a decent engine managed engine, then pay even more to have a specially developed set of fuel maps installed...then add some piece of agricultural plastic / metal that does goodness knows what to the AF ratio?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Apparently it leans the mixture by introducing upto 5% extra air into the inlet manifold (presumably past all the air mass sensor calculations) thereby running the (sometimes tuned) engine lean. Given the 1.8T and other audi engines use the recirculating air mass calcs etc, this rogue extra air = potential for error codes, overheating of engine (due to lean mixture), limp mode etc etc..... The evidence for the products efficacy is dubious, concentrating rather too much on fixed enviromental parameters to acheive optimal gains. I guess theoretically, if you cut a hole in the maifold and blow air in yourself you'll fool the ECU and run the car lean therefore saving fuel - audi / APR / AmD spend loads of time any money researching optimal air / fuelling therefore running lean doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

    I've heard of a great way on saving money with your new audi - buy the bloody diesel....
    #5
  7. StephenBogan
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    StephenBogan Member

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    [Feb 6, 2004]
    Bla..bla..bla...zzzzzz.... somebody say something? There have been 5 separate reviews done on it and everyone says its the *******. They are not 100quid, they are 48.50 and so far, in three weeks mine has almost paid for it's self. Anyway you would think I was on f**kin commision for this. Imola S3 asked if anyone used one I said yes, on several cars with no problems and to great effect then certain people started giving attitude, which is not what it's all about. Every one is right to their own opinion and should not be sujected to the type of sarcastic replys which I have read on several occasion.
    #6
  8. StephenBogan
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    StephenBogan Member

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    [Feb 6, 2004]
    Oh, Imola S3 forgot. Performance increases are negligible, some mag reviews reported a 2bhp increase but at the end of the day mate, sounds like you have bought it for the same reason as me, MPG. Around £12/week in my case is not long in adding up! the noise, I found is not as noticable as on previous valves I had on my A3, don't know if they have done something about it or that the s3 has better sound proofing. But I'm sure if thats the case someone will correct me and quote the additional kg of insulation used. ho ho.
    #7
  9. Grant
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    Grant Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 6, 2004]
    Thanks for the additional info ScotSTHREE!
    #8
  10. StephenBogan
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    StephenBogan Member

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    [Feb 6, 2004]
    No worries mate.
    #9
  11. DavidR
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    DavidR Active Member

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    [Feb 6, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    Bla..bla..bla...zzzzzz.... somebody say something? There have been 5 separate reviews done on it and everyone says its the *******.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Blah blah blah - thought this was a discussion forum where pros / cons of modifications etc can be discussed. Anyhow, if you can bear anymore of my tiresome ramblings then I would say that the reviews are very subjective and do not appear particularly scientific. To quote: "feels less breathless", "seems to pull stronger", "consumption was no worse", "felt a difference" etc etc. There are no accurate tests performed long term. There are no accurate tests performed with equal environmental variables and the biggest apparent gains were noted on old cars which were potentially badly tuned anyway. Lean running of the car will save fuel but at what long term cost? If you damage the engine by running lean then who has saved a few quid per week? I crtitically review scientific papers most days of the week and the information contained on the ECOTEK website is subjective, flawed and therefore weak.

    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    Imola S3 asked if anyone used one I said yes, on several cars with no problems and to great effect then certain people started giving attitude, which is not what it's all about.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think you'll find that the only "attitude" here seems to have come from your last post. I feel the use of this product on a performance car is ill advised. Whilst you advise ImolaS3 to use one, I would prefer it if he could look at potential downsides and make an INFORMED decision regards the potential savings short term against the potential long term deficits. There are too many people claiming thinks are the "*******" on the basis of poorly studied, subjective reviews - if max power claimed tommorrow that having a green flip paint job would give me an extra 10mph on my top speed then there would be others who champion that view. Don't be critical of those who might challenge the printed word and try these things independantly.

    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    Every one is right to their own opinion and should not be sujected to the type of sarcastic replys which I have read on several occasion.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hmmm, objectivity vs sarcasm, discuss......
    #10
  12. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 9, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    Bla..bla..bla...zzzzzz.... somebody say something?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, we did...
    It's just a shame that an opinionated person such as yourself seems to be unable to accept that there may be opinions different to yours. Furthermore, some of these opinions may be based upon a far more scientific approach than pure speculation and personal opinion.

    There is nothing proven rewgarding these devices...and the issues discussed are very valid.

    The purpose of these forums is to pass on your experiences and eductate those who may not yet have the experience or knowledge to make informed choices by themselves.

    The case has been presented by both sides...but so far I have seen no edidence to counter the fact that this valve playes havoc with A/F ratios and confuses a perfectly calibrated (if complex) engine management system.
    Unfortunately this is a fact...


    [ QUOTE ]

    There have been 5 separate reviews done on it and everyone says its the *******. They are not 100quid, they are 48.50 and so far, in three weeks mine has almost paid for it's self.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Surely the expression should be 'The ********' or are things more singular down your way?

    The price is irrelevant...the issues still not answered around A/F ratios etc are relevant.
    They could be paying you to run it...but if you have engine problems...will they offer to pay up?

    I'm not arguing with yous sudden decrease in fuel economy...but there are far too many variables to consider to be able to even offer it as a reasoned example, as far as I'm concerned.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Imola S3 asked if anyone used one I said yes, on several cars with no problems and to great effect then certain people started giving attitude, which is not what it's all about.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sure, it's up to Grant in the end...
    But surely he should be allowed the chance to be presented with any relevant issues with which to base his decision?

    As for attitude, that sort of statement shows a lack of maturity...there is no attitude present in the responses that have been posted...sarcasm, perhaps, but not attitude.

    You are correct that attitude is not what it's about...but sometimes people have to accept that there will be differences of opinion...and they will not always end up on the favoured side of the argument. That's life.


    [ QUOTE ]

    Every one is right to their own opinion and should not be sujected to the type of sarcastic replys which I have read on several occasion.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This would be a very sad and lifeless place if it were not for humour and sarcasm.

    If you don't like the replies, don't read. There are rules and guidelines for this forum...nowhere does it state that we are not allowed to post replies that contain sarcasm.

    There are people on here that have been tuning these cars for years...tuning cars in general for decades...their experience if priceless.
    If people post on here in an overly opinionated manner despite owning their car for 10 minutes, people get hacked off...it's all about respect.



    [ QUOTE ]

    Around £12/week in my case is not long in adding up! the noise, I found is not as noticable as on previous valves I had on my A3, don't know if they have done something about it or that the s3 has better sound proofing.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is a valid point...
    But it could be attributed to the better efficiency of the engine due to the colder air.
    You also have a FMIC which will lend itself to providing cooler charge air, and hence potentially better fuel economy anyway...have you thought about that?


    [ QUOTE ]

    But I'm sure if thats the case someone will correct me and quote the additional kg of insulation used. ho ho.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You are a very funny man... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif
    #11
  13. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 10, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ScotSTHREE said:
    "So, you'll pay good money for a car with a decent engine managed engine, then pay even more to have a specially developed set of fuel maps installed...then add some piece of agricultural plastic / metal that does goodness knows what to the AF ratio?

    I think not."

    Do tend to rub people up the wrong way.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ok...maye to run people up the wrong way wasn't the aim...but to get peoples grey matter kicked into action was the intention, and to have people fully think through the process of obtaining and fitting such items....and from that point of view, it worked.


    [ QUOTE ]

    One last point on the matter (I hope) does the valve in question not only work when off boost as it cant generate pressure it's self? If this was the case, there would be nothing to worry about, i.e. running lean, leading to engine failure?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Indeed it does only work in a vacuum situation.
    May I suggest you take yours apart for a closer look...I have in the past.

    You will find some fairly crude components within...spring, ballbearing or other plug, and a plastic to metal seal...not rocket science.

    Three things:

    1. The spring is weak...it has to be to open under vacuum in the manifold...
    How good is the seal under pressure?
    Here's an example...you and I both have a re-mapped ECU producing higher boost pressure, some people add Samco hoses to prevent hoses splitting under pressure, some add higher torque clamps to reduce blow by or the chence of the clamp blowing off under boost, some replace plastic pipes with alloy / steel to prevent boost splitting the pipes, some uprate ICs to remove the IC weak link from the system....all these items are air-tight and able to hold boost.
    Then they add the Ecotek valve!...to me it's just a weak link and another unneeded item to potentially reduce performance by potentially bleeding boost.

    A catastrophic failure of one of these valves, could lead to a lean mixture situation off boost, and this combined with a very hot engine could lead to a catastrophic, or near catastrophic failure. Not likely, I agree. But possible non the less.
    And something I'd prefer not to consider.


    2. The engine managememt system on the S3 measures air flow in both the forward and reverse direction, that is to say air passing over the MAF sensor heading into the engine, as well as air passing back into the airbox when the DV is operating. This way the ECU knows exactly how much air is in the system at any time and knows exactly how much fuel it needs for maximum performance once the throttle is opened. Surely, adding an extra 5% of air will upsed the calibrations somewhat?
    What will this do to the A/F ratio?
    What will this do to the throttle response?
    Will it run lean? Possibly, possibly not.
    Will it be dangerous? Probably not...but I personally won't take the chance...if you are pushing the boundaries of the turbo performance and struggling to get enough fuel in with standard injectors, I don't believe this item does you any favours.


    3. I have tried one of thise valves on three different cars...we have rolling roaded it, and carried out many miles of camparative tests on the road, we tried to be as scientific as possible when comparing it's results. Each and every time any perceived gains in throttle response / fuel economy by me could be replicated by the second party by altering his driving style...and visa-versa.
    No power gains either from the RR either...

    So I believe I can fairly say it is ****...and - to me - it makes a silly, annoying noise.
    #12
  14. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 10, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Imola S3 said:

    [ QUOTE ]
    (Q) If the device lets in air surely it will lean the mixture and overheat my valves?

    (A) The air taken in by the device accounts for little more than 5% of the total air volume but causes sufficient turbulence to create better combustion and accordingly combustion chamber operating temperatures are quite often reduced.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Does this help the discussion any?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I personally don't believe it does...I believe it's advertising blurb!

    Anyone who has studied fluid dynamics will tell you that in an engine you need laminer air flow to get the air smoothly into the engine in the first place. The smoother the flow, the higher the gas speed, the more air you get in. As the fuel is added you ideally should have swirl to fully mix the air and fuel.
    On modern engines the air flow is manipulated in the runners of the inlet manifold into flow that is as laminer are possible, prior to having the fuel injected and the combustion chamber swirl characteristics combined with the mixture hitting the back of the valves act to mix the air/fuel as much as possible prior to ignition. (it doesn't do a very good job anyway, petrol engines are notoriously inefficient)
    But, to some degree turbulance in the inlet manifold is undesirable!
    Why to you think NA engine builders smooth and match port all elements of the inlet tract to aid air speed and laminer flow within?...this means the airbox, inlet hoses, TB, inlet manifold, and head are all ported to give as smooth transition from one to the other as possiblem whilst maintaing gas speed.
    Laminer flow = higher gas speed.
    Turbulent flow = slower gas speed.
    So why add turbulance?
    Surely this slows the gas speed down and potentially reduces performance?

    OK, an argument like this has entirely too may parameters to make a certain case for...and NA differ from Forced Induction engines in so much that the gas speed is less critical so you are using a compressor to force the air in...but the principles of combustion chamber swirl and laminer air flow in the inlet manifold still apply....why to race engine builders match port the TB, inlet manifold and head on the 1.8T if there is no gain?

    Again, I say that from an engineering point of view I don't want additional turbulance in the inlet manifold of this type...

    All I'm trying to do is provide sound engineering facts to enable an educated decision to be made.
    #13
  15. StephenBogan
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    StephenBogan Member

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    [Feb 11, 2004]
    No problem. Now, I've seen this great new add-on, it claims to give.......only kidding.

    #14

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