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Dyno

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by indiemike, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. indiemike
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    indiemike ZoomZoom

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    Taking my car to a rolling road day on saturaday, running on a dyno dynamics. Never been to one before but ive read alot about the "Dyno Lottery"

    Are some more accurate than others?
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  2. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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  3. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    Goodluck! lol
    #3
  4. DJ_Troopa
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    DJ_Troopa K1 Driver

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    What's wrong with Dyno's? I heard Dyno Dynamics are one of the most accurate ones out there?
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  5. indiemike
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    indiemike ZoomZoom

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    Only going cos think theres going to be a good turn out. Maybe they will tell me im running 300+ on a K04 if this lottery business is anything to go by lol
    #5
  6. mk1chopper
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    mk1chopper Missing the S3

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    So many factors effect the outcome
    #6
  7. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    These are good for pre and post mod runs to show the difference in BHP and torque.

    Other than that, I personally would save my 45 quid.

    All IMO of course!
    #7
  8. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    the only real use for a dyno is for engine diagnosis and to possibly see gains with mods, provided the dyno is used properly.

    other than that, just another day at to chin wag with a bunch of guys
    #8
  9. DJ_Troopa
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    DJ_Troopa K1 Driver

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    So if people don't want to spend on dyno's thinking its a waste, how else would you be able to log your bhp and torque?

    Just curious what the alternative could be.
    #9
  10. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    ... I very much doubt that on a Dyno Dynamics dyno lol ;P

    <tuffty/>
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  11. finesse
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    finesse Active Member

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    Save your loot
    #11
  12. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    It's difficult really. The problem is one key thing - real world conditions. As I think Bill said in a thread recently, since when did the 30mph road that you drive down have a massive 100mph fan running infront of you!
    #12
  13. indiemike
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    indiemike ZoomZoom

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    So i take it these Dyno Dynamics give some level of accuracy. Just thought id go and see the rest of the cars, think theres a 30+ turn out. Will return with there results on weekend
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  14. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    They are known as 'heartbreakers'... I organised a dyno day at Ajec Racing and the stage 1 S3's were putting out around 230bhp...

    <tuffty/>
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  15. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    They are a great event to hold and to meet new people from car forums. Just don't let anyone's serious "my car did 3bhp more than yours" BS get you cross.

    We use to go to RSTuning in Leeds for Cliosport meets. I was "rolling" in a 1.2 at the time and the banter amongst the 2l lads amounted to Paul, the owner, remapping my car there and then to prove he could remap anything. That made mine the only remapped 1.2 we knew of. 8 more bhp, oh yeah!

    Good fun, good times.
    #15
  16. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    DD claim to be, but so do every other manufacturer
    they do not measure coastdown losse's they add a number to the atw figure to get the "estimated" flywheel figure.
    more often than not, DD rollers read lower than most others so be prepared for dissapointment if you have a figure in your head
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  17. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    more likely 230bhp if remapped to the hilt..
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  18. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    vag-com airflow is a gauge of performance changes if you check vs mods.. more airflow should equate to more power..

    dyno is a tool for tuning, its to suceptable to other factors to be deemed "accurate" to the nth degree
    relative numbers on the day is your best comparison
    often however, higher powered cars read lower than expected, than lesser potent cars... which is there the lottery comes in.. load settings on dyno, gear used? etc etc
    [​IMG]
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  19. indiemike
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    indiemike ZoomZoom

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    No figures in my head but lets see what they claim its running
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  20. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    You need to have similar cars there for comparison Mike, all the stage1 s3's seemed to be making low(accurate?) power at Ajec, with mine making 231ponies running AmD stage1. Disappointed? a little, but the car drives fine, so I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Just don't get your hopes up.
    #20
  21. Sandip
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    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    My prediction for your car indiemike on dyno dynamic's rollers > 243bhp:) might pop down to have a look
    #21
  22. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D Cylinder Head Master

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    The best Dyno's out there are the engine dyno's
    #22
  23. Tyler Owen
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    Tyler Owen Member

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    Keep an eye on the Atmospheric and Intake Temperature and the difference between them!
    #23
  24. A3Tomlin
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    A3Tomlin Drive it like you stole it

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    We had a Dyno Dynamics dyno at uni for our Formula Student team. They are great pieces of kit and no doubt, can achieve a higher accuracy than other, cheaper dyno systems. However, don't be under the impression that just because it says DD on the side, your output is 'true'. You can play around with all sorts of settings in the background which will give you higher or lower figures depending on what you play with. As someone said above, the only proper way to know BHP at the flywheel... is to measure it at the flywheel on an engine dyno, and the accuracy of the results will depend more on the operator than the actual equipment imo.
    #24
  25. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    lol - dead practrical for the majority
    dyno is a dyno, and different brands & users make different numbers

    corrections, offsets, scalers yadayada
    #25
  26. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    LOL remap is meant to be best bang for your bucks. From the readings some people have got 230bhp is a piss take to me 5bhp or 15 bhp over standard. If that was my car I would be taking it straight back to the company to either look at the map or my car because its not running right.
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  27. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    you presume (incorrectly) the same dyno would make the car read std power...
    all relative to what you started with, not absolute

    welcome to the random world of dynos

    you will get the hang of them if you go to enough dd days
    #27
  28. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    We have a dyno in uni and every car that goes on it makes what it should or roughly what we have calculated. VW lupo stats 65bhp standard and on our dyno it makes 60-67bhp standard. Few people have done project work on it and calculated a rough idea of what power output it should achieve and its near enough bang on, give or take few bhp. Test after test after it makes what it should.

    I know no two dynos will give the same car the same readings but if the test procedures are carried out correctly there no reason why they shouldnt be two far apart. AMD quote roughly 265bhp from a remap so on any dyno it should make roughly that, may make 250-255 one day or 260-265 another but 230 (didnt someone get 226 from a remap also) thats a joke to me. Either the car not running as it should (which is likely the reason) or test procedures aint accurate IMO.
    #28
  29. [Dave B]
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    [Dave B] Rrrrrrrr-tech

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    I take it the 230's we're talking about is at the wheels? With the mods in your sig i'd expect that to be the minimum you'll see - although as mentioned it is a lottery. I'm running a custom stage 1 map from Jabba and it ran 232bhp on their rollers and 225bhp on Awesome GTI's rollers (both ATW), so who knows what it's actually running! It doesn't really matter though as long as you enjoy the car. Also, in terms of the S3, it's worth paying more attention to the torque numbers as that's what you feel in your back!

    Post up the graphs when you've been as the curves always make for interesting discussion :)
    #29
  30. Tyler Owen
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    Tyler Owen Member

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    Its also worth mentioning that Haldex system doesn't actually help when doing power runs on the dyno, and that is responsible for some lower figures and some rather strange looking graphs at times
    #30
  31. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    Think they are flywheel power mate. Your figures though are pretty good for a stage one.
    #31
  32. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Ideally you would want a datum so then you know what the car is starting out at and you want scientific conditions and the tuners setting it up exactly the same way everytime.Too many factors for me so I go along with the Dyno Lotto line but it makes good pub ammo if you get generous figures......I did once and milked it even though I knew it was BS
    #32
  33. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    Just a quick one here. You say the Lupos are 65 standard. If you take your quote of 60-67bhp on your Uni rollers and take the lowest figure, that's 7.5% down on what it "should" be. Apply that to 260bhp that AMD quote, your uni rolling road would show an AMD S3 stage 1 as running 240bhp . . . see where I'm going with this?

    Hence, dyno lottery.
    #33
  34. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    It was an example. I know that when someone does some testing on there project cars, they make near enough exactly what it should. If its out of the respectable tolerences they look for problems with the car or certain variable within the test which could give different outcomes.

    Funky_Junky post is what I am say. Two different rollers but very similar readings.
    #34
  35. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    Wasn't having a go chap, you understand, just shows what a tiny % difference can cause.
    #35
  36. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    I do understand your point but no dyno should vary by that much. If a company quotes an output then if the test procedures are right and the cars running right it should make them around them figures. If REVO quote 260-265 bhp after map and I get my car on a dyno and it only make 225-230, near enough standard figures, then thats false advertising if thats correct.
    #36
  37. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    That's not quite the point. The point is, your car (pre-map) will be showing as 195-200bhp on the rollers mentioned above. So going up to 230bhp shows an increase of 30-35bhp.

    225-260/5 is 35-40 bhp.

    It is relative, hence the posts about getting a before and after print out. This is the only way to show what real world performance increases the map has given you.
    #37
  38. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    They shouldn't but they do.... My car has made 383bhp on one dyno and 344bhp on another... The Dyno Dynamics dyno in shootout mode is 'supposed' to give consistant dyno readings across any DD dyno you take it too... Sadly this doesn't always seem to be the case..

    There is a member on here that insisted his K03 turbo'd A3 was making 205bhp which is sadly not realistic... however he did have a before and after run... before the remap (1998 A3) the dyno showed 160bhp which is in itself sounds pretty impressive for a 12yr old 150bhp engine and the after run gained 45bhp... the 45bhp gain I believe as its relative... the 160/205 dyno reading I do not...

    A dyno is a tool to enable a tuner to simulate road conditions so they can tune the engine effectively, the figures they spit out are largely academic and should be taken with a pinch of salt... whats real is the relative figures... you start with 200bhp, slap a bigger turbo and stuff on and get 300bhp from the same dyno... 100bhp increase relative to the previous figure...

    The figures published by car manufacturers as subject to the same scrutiny IMO...

    Whats really funny of course is that the OP hasn't even taken his car to the dyno day yet and already the big BHP discussion has started...

    <tuffty/>
    #38
  39. S3 Nattie
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    S3 Nattie Quattro ist für sissies

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    So if you had your car remap and had before and after print, let say standard made 200bhp and remap you made 250bhp. If you took your car to another dyno and you made 210 bhp remapped, would you be happy because I wouldnt and I would start asking questions about my car and the test procedues.
    #39
  40. JD09
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    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving

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    But my car would have made 210bhp minus the difference on the second set of rollers, so yes I would be happy.

    The aim of the map is to increase the bhp, torque and line of the graph. I don't care what my car makes on a dyno; I care about the difference between premap and mapped figures.

    I know my car is circa 220bhp, as it is a BAM engine, no leaks, no issues, no fault codes. The specific figure is of no interest. If I get circa 40bhp more from a remap on one set of rollers, great.
    #40

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