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Dual vs. single mass clutch kit?

Keeno Jun 21, 2010

  1. Keeno

    Keeno Spooly Spooly Boosty Boosty!

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    I can get a brand new LUK standard dual mass flywheel and clutch for £240.

    BUT

    Is the stage 1 ECS kit (lightweight single mass flywheel, 228mm clutch) worth the extra £90 over the LUK kit?

    Bit unsure on the ECS kit as I've been cautioned against mating a flywheel and clutch from different manufacturers...
     
  2. Matt82

    Matt82 Active Member

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    any idea of the brand of a typical conventional flywheel? it is just a lump of metal afterall
     
  3. Keeno

    Keeno Spooly Spooly Boosty Boosty!

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    That's what I thought! What's to sya that if I only replaced the clutch not the fly, I could end up with two different brands...
     
  4. mat_c

    mat_c New Member

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    Apologies if I'm stating the obvious!

    SMF are a lump of metal. DMF are two masses attached by springs to absorb torsional oscillation. If you replace a DMF with an SMF you will putting more strain on clutch plate and transmission.

    DMF are mainly there to improve 'driver comfort', but I've heard many stories of DMF to SMF conversions buggering plates & box.

    This may not apply to a petrol Audi A3 - I'm not an expert.
     
  5. Keeno

    Keeno Spooly Spooly Boosty Boosty!

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    I couldn't say to be honest. I've read good things about the ECS kit in both the 10lb and 20.5lb guises. Both come with a new, bigger pressure and clutch plates.

    Having said that, I can't really afford a new 'box...
     
  6. RichA3Turbo

    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    I went for the ECS Stage 1 (G60 SM flywheel) and uprated clutch. I put320bhp and 300lbft through mine and am yet to have any problems. My brothers is the same - No issues.

    Dual mass are expensive and if you can drive properly, you wont notice the driver comfort aspect either to be honest.

    if you want OEM, then just go for OEM. If you want something a little more, for a little more, then go for the ECS kit (or something similar).

    Rich
     
  7. kachnak

    kachnak Active Member

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    Hello,
    I kill my clutch because I was stupid and start on 7000rpm in 1/4 mile race.
    Now my car is not so fast as was when I bought it.
    Sometimes I see that this clutch is slipping on 5th gear.
    So I would like replace it and looking for best solution.
    I need car every day and 90% I use it in city, but I would like go to lot of 1/4 races. I would like also remap to 260bhp next year.
    Therefore I am looking for better clutch as standard.

    Anybody know what from this two is better kit for me please?
    30-4229HF (£890.00)
    Sachs Performance Clutch Kit & Jabba Flywheel (1.8T 6-Speed 02M) (£990.00)

    Thank you
     
  8. Andrew@A.L.D

    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp S3.

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    You get more vibration and chatter if you have a single mass fly
     
  9. kachnak

    kachnak Active Member

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    but lot off clutch manufactors make single mass flywheel so I think there must be also some plus for it.
     
  10. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Single mass is obviously lighter and less complicated than dual mass.... its a more direct way to connect the clutch to the gearbox.... problems with single mass tend to revolve around chattering from the gearbox as more vibration is transmitted through the system and you need to be careful with clutch/flywheel combos from different manufacturers as they sometimes lead to long pedals and clutches that don't engage or disengage properly... other issues revolve around drivability as mentioned... can make the clutch feel very stop/start in traffic and uprated clutches tend to be heavier at the pedal...

    The clutch setup I currently have was suggested by a guy from SeatCupra.net who has an Audi TT with over 450bhp and regularly does 1/4 mile stuff with it...

    Consists of an LuK DM flywheel, LuK clutch cover and Sachs motorsport 4 puck paddle plate... light as a feather on operation with a very very small amount of occasional judder at the last bit of take up when driving normally else when giving it some its like an anvil coming down and just bites...

    I have yet to do a full launch from it but the guy on SCN went from this setup to a SM flywheel setup and hated it... he is now running the same as me again...

    <tuffty/>
     
    Alex C likes this.
  11. AudiS3-Turbo

    AudiS3-Turbo Member

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    I run a single mass,and its not soft and very light and grips well off the line,but i can confirm as said above you do get gearbox chatter at idle with load on engine ie ac,but thats it and at higher speeds on heavy throttle you do get light cabin vibration.

    I bought the car with this in,if it pops i probably will look to go back to DM depending on the cost,but its not noticeable.
     
  12. kachnak

    kachnak Active Member

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    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  13. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Sure thats the right one? page suggests its for an A3... some A3 clutches are smaller... S3 clutch is 240mm...

    The clutch plate I have is this one...
    Rigid clutch disc with sintered metal plates - TTNET - Sachs Performance Parts

    As for the flywheel, its the std part for the S3, I don't have a part number to hand I am afraid... I just went into GSF and said I wanted a DM flywheel for my S3 and they gave me one... the clutch cover I have is part of a std LuK clutch too...

    If you buy a clutch, make sure its designed for the std/OEM DM flywheel as some manufacturers supply different clutches for OEM DM flywheels and their own single mass ones...

    One other thing to remember is that DM flywheels typically come with rigid clutch plates while single mass typically use sprung clutch plates..

    <tuffty/>
     
  14. Andrew@A.L.D

    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp S3.

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    I got my solid flywheel from TTV Racing and they ask weather you want a it to fit a LUK or a Sachs clutch
     
  15. kachnak

    kachnak Active Member

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    I sent question to sachs if it can be fitted to my S3. And there is written that this clutch kit is suitable for stock flywheel and bearing.
    Last comment in your 4 puck paddle plate is that disc is not recommended for street cars. Do you use your car only for race? Or is possible use this plate on streets as standard plate?
    I read somewhere that with 4 puck paddle plate is not possible continuously start.
     
  16. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    I have no probs with it at all.... of course its not been in long so no idea how long it will last, time will tell of course but I have no probs using mine in everyday traffic including commuter traffic...

    Its not advise to hold the car on the clutch from what I have heard as it will wear more etc but as long as you don't ride the clutch it should be fine...

    My car is a daily runner that I use to drive to work and back with a combination of country roads, steepish hills and cross city commuter stop/start driving... the clutch is light in operation but does grab very well (I have stalled the car a couple of times pulling away a bit quick from junctions... not recommended lol...)

    <tuffty/>
     
  17. daveeeeee

    daveeeeee New Member

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    Dude i would love to know where you can get hold of a Dual mass fly and clutch for £240 where ever i look its £300 + for the fly alone

    cheers
     
  18. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    I went to GSF....

    <tuffty/>
     
  19. kachnak

    kachnak Active Member

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    It think daveeeeee reply to first massage in this thread.

    Today I recieve answer from sachs that SRE organic kit, what I pastle here, is suitable for APY S3, so after pay-day in my factory I will order one :)
     
  20. Welly

    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    I went from DM to SM on my A3 at clutch change time.... I didn't notice any difference in the drive-ability at all, and performance was definitely better.

    I will be going SM on my S3 when the clutch needs changing.
     
  21. Andrew@A.L.D

    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp S3.

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    If you do welly get the flywheel from TTV you may have seen mine but order it soon as you can as they can take time to make it.
     
  22. kachnak

    kachnak Active Member

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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2010
  23. Chris_38

    Chris_38 Member

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    Morning boys jus been looking into this DMF to SMF I've done it an its like the biting point is on the floor an I can't bleed it up, does anyone no if I have to change the slave cylinder cuz the pushrods not long enough ?
     
  24. Loor

    Loor Member

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  25. cooper86

    cooper86 Member

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  26. vanilla_ice

    vanilla_ice Active Member

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    I'm not sure if you are still an active member, but any feedback on this setup?

    Does anyone else use the above SACHS clutch and pressure plate? I would like to know if I could get away with a standard (SACHS) pressure plate, as @<tuffty/> does with his setup.

    Thanks.
     
  27. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    I use a std LuK pressure plate with a sachs 4 puck paddle plate... not the setup above

    <tuffty/>
     
  28. vanilla_ice

    vanilla_ice Active Member

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    Thanks tuffty. Sorry if my question was unclear.

    I would like to know if the 'performance' clutch above will work with a standard SACHS cover plate. The SACHS web catalog suggests both the 4 puck and performance clutch should be used with a 'performance' cover plate only.

    I am not doubting that your own setup works, just whether the performance clutch can also work with a standard cover plate.

    I am all for tried and tested, but I gather your setup can take some getting used to and I don't plan to go beyond K04-023 power levels.

    Maybe stick to bog standard?
     
  29. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    clutch wear is subjective... all really depends on how you drive regardless of power... I could easily nuke my clutch in no time if I was an animal..

    Std should be fine providing you are not launching the car all over the place or trying to pretend you can change gear as quick as a DSG box...

    Problem with uprated clutches is they tend to be stiffer in use... the friction plates tend to be a little more tolerant of heat but the clamping force (especially on organic plates) is the 'uprated' bit and thats in the cover plate

    <tuffty/>
     
    vanilla_ice likes this.
  30. vanilla_ice

    vanilla_ice Active Member

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    Forgive my ignorance on this, but would the paddle be able to accommodate more spirited driving with stg1/stg2 levels of power, and potentially last longer than OEM?

    The reason I ask is that my power level is well within it's capabilities, plus I don't launch.
     
  31. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    You could argue that... cerametallic plates do wear more quickly than organic but would potentially provide more positive engagement for longer... the organic may well out last the cerametallic if driven sensibly but the cerametallic will outlast the organic if abused a bit...

    Its a bit swings and roundabouts tbh hence the 'subjective' part...

    <tuffty/>
     
  32. vanilla_ice

    vanilla_ice Active Member

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    Thank you. My current clutch has so far lasted 50K of me driving with Stage1 and still has 'some' life left, but the bite point is getting higher.

    My level of tune will only ever be marginally increasing , so standard is probably all I will ever 'need'.

    That said, it would be nice to have the paddle clutch to allow me to use the power more and be less sympathetic as and when then mood takes me.

    Subjective indeed!
     

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