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Dual mass or single mass sachs for s3?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Kelza, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    I,ve got the dual mass sachs clutch which alot of members are using on there s3 8p3s with a remap , few members having problems with the sachs clutch slipping after 6k miles , there is a lot of talk about the single mass clutch (sre) beening better for remapped cars , what are your thoughts ...
    Performance Umr�stkit: Kupplung mit Schwungrad - Sachs-Performance
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
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  3. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Premium car, therefore I'd be inclined to stick with OEM DMF as you don't want the car sounding like its knocking!

    The OEM DMF usually only becomes a problem if you rag the arse off the car or more importantly spend too much time deep in the red line zone of the rev counter.

    Whilst the SMF is more robust, they use a DMF to stop unwanted vibrations from putting unnecessary strain on the crankshaft (which effectively means they don't have to put so much time and effort into honing the crank. Without it there could be a low risk of crank failure.
    #2
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  4. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    :faint: only after 6k.... :( probably means I have 1k left on my Sachs and DMF then as my redline is visited quite alot.... :(
    #3
  5. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Clutch will go first. Takes serious over revving or a bit of old age to knacker DMF, but it's worth having the two parts done at same time as it's not cheap getting gearbox off.

    Clutch only becomes an issue beyond stage 1 for S3.
    #4
  6. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    out of interest what clutch would do stage 2, 2+ etc? Sachs would last a bit I'd imagine, but surely there's gotta be a seriously beefed up clutch somewhere for the 8P S3?
    #5
  7. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    There's a mix of preferences out there, some go for Southbend, others stick with Sachs, and then there is Spec. Personally I will be going with Spec or Sachs as I want OEM feel and the missus needs to be able to drive it.
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  8. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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  9. pinterovski
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    pinterovski Member

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    I'm pissed off about this clutch thing,so if i buy complete set of sachs clutch and one-mass flywheel
    i will get vibrations+freaky sounds and will put alot of strain on the gearbox!?
    If i buy sachs clutch plus LUK DMF,well lucky like i am will kill the clutch in 10k miles:scared2:

    So only option that i see here is:
    racing clutch
    racing one mass flywheel
    get use to the noise
    rebuilding gearbox for stronger components
    Seems like alot of money :keule:
    #8
  10. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Yeah i,ve heard from a few people the components in the gear box is not the best , i suppose if you drive it hard all the time then it would put strain on any clutch and gearbox , its all a big risk and i,ve only heard of 3 members cars lasting 6k befor slipping on a sachs uprated clutch...
    #9
  11. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    shoot me now? :(
    #10
  12. chrissy1502002
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    chrissy1502002 Member

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Ive got the Single mass fly and race clutch from sachs on my 2.0tfsi quattro, and ive not looked back since. Ive covered around 15-20,000miles sine it being fitted
    #11
  13. pinterovski
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    pinterovski Member

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    #12
  14. chrissy1502002
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    chrissy1502002 Member

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    I have this one:

    Performance Umrüstkit: Kupplung mit Schwungrad - Sachs-Performance

    I do get a little bit af flywheel chatter at idle, but to be honest its not that bad. Some people just think its a diesel lol. You can feel more from the engine in the scense that if you load the engine up in a high gear, but its really not that much. I do alot of miles and I wouldnt have it any other way. It is abit heavier than the standard clutch but it has soooooo much more feel.

    For me its the only option :salute:
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
    #13
  15. jungleman
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    jungleman Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    You should be alright with a standard DMF as long as you done abuse the car, no dragging/high rpm launching, had mine in about a year, so covered about 6-7k since the install and it's still pulling like a train with no slipping
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  16. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    Hi paolo nice to see you back did you fit a oem ,luk or sachs flywheel..
    #15
  17. jungleman
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    jungleman Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    Mines got the oem luk DMF
    Glad to be back and to the world of abbreviations haha!
    #16
  18. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    Organic lined clutch plates are much better i would say for fast road use, and that OEM+ feel. The pedal may well feel slightly heavier when first installed, but this is only because of a heavy duty diaphragm in the clutch cover. With the organic lined plates, you get a cushion spring in between the two linings. These compress during take up of drive, which is the main difference between the organic lined plates, and the paddle type clutch plates.
    The paddle's dont have anything in between them, as its a much harder material on each puck, these will tolerate higher temps, but harsher feel. The organic one is OEM+ but wont tolerate as much as the paddle type.
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  19. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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  20. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Could also be down to the wrong type of grease used on the input shaft and on the hub splines. In the aftermarket, all the clutches we sell will have a sachet of grease in the box. This grease is specially formulated for SACHS which also has a dust repellent in it. A lot of people still use copper grease, which has a low melting point, and no dust repellent in it. When the bellhousing temps get high, the grease breaks down. Usual working temps in the bell housing are between 90-110 degree's C. Copper based grease starts to break down at about 180 degrees C i think.
    Anyways, getting to the punch line, without the correct grease being used, with the clutch dust, the grease will turn into a thick paste, which will prevent the plate from sliding freely on the input shaft. This could then cause the disengagement issues.
    Other things could be damage to the input shaft splines preventing free movement. Sometimes if there has been a gearbox misalignment on the clutch, you get burrs develop then causing the issues above.
    The job of the clutch cover is to transmit torque from the engine (this is achieved by the metal straps on the side of the cover) The diaphragm fingers give you the clamping force needed to clamp the drive plate secure between the pressure plate and the flywheel. The metal straps also give you the pressure plate lift to be able to disengage the drive.
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  21. Boydie
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    Boydie Boycie VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    I am the opposite - I think my DMF is failing before the clutch and they both have been in for a year. Has lasted well more than 6k though!
    #20
  22. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Think I'm going to go Spec Stg2 or 2+ clutch based on reading their info.

    Just need to make sure I find someone who will fit it the right way round and with the right grease :rtfm:!!!
    #21
  23. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Hi Warren....I'm still totally undecided right now....I've got Spec,Loba(Sachs) and Helix all on the list,and really have no idea which to go for.
    #22
  24. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Shame I'm not a bit closer to buying one. With the cost of the new car & rims I'm not ready to bang a clutch in yet until this one has seen some life in Stg2+ spec (due Apr-May). We could have looked at doing a group buy / fit if we could have come to a conclusion as to the best route to take.

    The thought of spending good money and potentially 7k miles later (6 months in my daily driver) be looking to do it again would push me over the edge.

    I'm happy to spend money, but not on temporary fixes at 4 digit costs.
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  25. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Well.....it's going to be one of those 3,but which one!.....all would seem to fit the torque requirements,and all have both good and bad sides,so it may come down to the equivalent of tossing a coin.
    #24
  26. chrissy1502002
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    chrissy1502002 Member

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Well ive had mine in for 15-20,000 miles and never had a peep from it. I would highly recomend the clutch kit I have along with the single mass flywheel. It really is great with no major draw backs. No slippage or anything. Im running in the regions of 330 bhp and have yet to have a problem with it, so i would expect it to take your power levels alrite
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  27. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Thanks Chrissy...if that reply is for me!
    The problem I have is not power,which is not the issue with clutches anyway,but torque,and whilst we know an uprated Sachs organic was OK at 440lbs,we know it's not OK with a lot more......now most of the other clutch kits including Spec,Loba,and so on may well take more,but are actually not rated for much beyond 440lbs in any case,and the Sachs organic you're using simply wouldn't last on mine as it's essentially the same clutch disc and plate but with the SMF.
    #26
  28. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Right who whats to buy a sachs dual mass clutch with luk flywheel all new ,lol
    [​IMG]
    #27
  29. 5ean
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    5ean S3 Owner VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Why you selling it? How much you wanting for it?
    #28
  30. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    I'll swap you for the Rev D DV John!!!
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  31. Cheese
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    Cheese Member

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    [Jan 13, 2012]
    Price?
    #30
  32. Kelza
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    Kelza MODERATOR Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 14, 2012]
    Sachs dual mass clutch ,cover plate, luk flywheel and release bearing Are 900+....
    #31
  33. Cheese
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    Cheese Member

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    [Jan 14, 2012]
    I am waiting on a quote from AmD for the parts + fitting. But apparently a slightly different part may be required for the newer S3. Once I have my quote and part numbers I will come back to you.
    #32
  34. Andbecks
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    Andbecks New Member

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    [Jan 17, 2012]
    I need a new clutch now Stage 2+. As soon as it was mapped the clutch gave way on Saturday, 3 days ago.
    I can get Sachs Clutch for Eur 605 (£500) direct from them and the LUK TMF is £255 + Vat (£300)

    Would you accept £750 delivered Sir as my fitterwants £250 and I dont want to top a grand.
    becks.
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  35. pinterovski
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    pinterovski Member

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    [Jan 17, 2012]
    What is TMF?
    #34
  36. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Jan 17, 2012]
    I would say a misprint for either DMF or SMF.
    #35
  37. chrissy1502002
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    chrissy1502002 Member

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    [Jan 17, 2012]
    Im guessing Two Mass Flywheel??
    #36
  38. pinterovski
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    pinterovski Member

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    [Jan 17, 2012]
    Aha OK:thumbsup:
    So,what is now recommended for clutch and fywhell for S3?
    Spec 2+ or Spec 3+ and Luk DMF? I really dont know anymore :uhm:
    #37
  39. swatchuk
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    swatchuk Member

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    [Jan 17, 2012]
    I'm not certain on this, but when i was doing my research i gather that you can only put the spec clutches on their smf??
    I'm sure someone can confirm either way
    #38
  40. Andbecks
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    Andbecks New Member

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    [Jan 18, 2012]
    Yeh sorry, should of been DMF. you can use the replacement LUK one with the Sachs clutch unless you want a lightened flywheel.
    I dont think this is necessary though. I spoke to Helix and their Organic clutch is £480 + Vat and their Flywheel is £300 + Vat but dont know if the Fly is uprated so higher costs than the Sachs / LUK combo..

    I have also spoke to Roy at CA Automotive as he is the UK dealer for Spec clutches which quite a few people are starting to use and they have a high lbft rating. Revo mentioned Spec also.
    With discount he quoted £600 for the clutch and £345 for the flywheel.

    S3Kel, have you got the sizes and weights of the boxes so I can get a delivery cost from my courier, I have text you also.
    becks.
    #39
  41. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Jan 18, 2012]
    I think after a lot of shopping around that it looks like a Spec Stage 3+ will be the one I'll have to get.

    Helix say theirs won't handle the torque and we already know the Sachs won't so with the problems with the Southbend ,it left the Spec, which at 580lbs was the only one rated to above the torque produced.
    #40
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