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DSG - First thrash

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Amchlolor, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    Got into a tussle between two pretty quick,and safe,guys over a country road at the weekend.
    One in a newish MR2 and one in a sporty looking Fiesta.
    I managed to dispose of them both pretty quickly,but not as quickly as I would have in a manual.
    I'm willing to concede I need more time to get used to the DSG but,
    in particular,I find the fact that (even in 'manual' mode) the box will change up for you as you approach the red line quite infuriating.
    It's a road I've been over a million times and there are several occasions where it's better,and quicker,to hold onto the gear you're in between corners.
    The DSG was changing up when I didn't really want,or ask,to.
    I'll have to rethink my 'trash-plan' over that road.
    Unless anyone knows how to get a wee bit more 'over-rev' without it changing up for you ???? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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  3. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    This is my main pet hate about the DSG.

    I'd rather it trusted me a bit more, as the BMW SMG box does. When in manual the BM will just bounce off the rev limiter, which I think the Audi should allow.
    #2
  4. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    Agreed Eeef.
    I don't suppose a remap alters this in any way either,does it ?
    #3
  5. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    bowfer,

    I can understand more how this would be annoying in a rev happy petrol, but have found that holding 4200 revs in the 2.0 tdi pointless. Try doing the same route but dont go above 4k. This should put you no lower than 3k on the gear change. It may 'feel' the slower way, but think you'll be surprised with the result.
    #4
  6. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    not an engine remapp no, all that would do is push the peak power point higher iirc.

    I must admit though, I had thought about asking the question of the likes of Forge/APR et al...
    #5
  7. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    I know diesels don't respond to thrashing like petrols do,but I still feel the DSG changes up a bit too early,especially as the 2.0tdi revs so much more freely than the 1.9tdi I used to have.
    In the instances I noticed it I wanted to hold the gear so that when I went into the corner I was at the right revs for the exit.
    The unexpected up-changes threw me a bit.
    I'll know to expect them next time I suppose.

    Manual mode should be manual mode though,don't you think ?

    The only time it should over-ride you,IMHO,is changing down to first,to avoid stalling.
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  8. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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  9. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I know diesels don't respond to thrashing like petrols do,but I still feel the DSG changes up a bit too early,especially as the 2.0tdi revs so much more freely than the 1.9tdi I used to have.
    In the instances I noticed it I wanted to hold the gear so that when I went into the corner I was at the right revs for the exit.
    The unexpected up-changes threw me a bit.
    I'll know to expect them next time I suppose.

    Manual mode should be manual mode though,don't you think ?

    The only time it should over-ride you,IMHO,is changing down to first,to avoid stalling.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Totally agree that manual should be just that. .


    A little confused though, I can see that holding high revs in apetrol gives you the benefit of being able to adjust the car better as you have more response. As long as you have 3k+ revs in the 2.0 TDI you already have this, and I feel that if this is the case that you should choose the correct gear for exit. Having 4k+ revs at exit requires a gear change straight away, wasting time.

    Hope this makes sense !
    #8
  10. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    The corners I'm talking about are ideally spaced so that you hit the red line at more or less the exact point you start braking.
    There's no need for an extra gearchange,yet the DSG does it for you.
    It threw me as I was expecting the extra engine braking I would normally get by being at high revs.The fact that the DSG changed up left me 'freewheeling' into the corner a bit.

    Why on earth Audi have done this in the DSG is beyond me as it kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing in a way,doesn't it ?

    A case of "we'll let you play with the gearchanges,but we still have ultimate control,so na na nana naaaaa"
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  11. Fuzzman
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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    Was that going round a narrow corner or going round a sweeping corner /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif where you will need hi rev to control the wheels
    #10
  12. JaminBen
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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    A case of "we'll let you play with the gearchanges,but we still have ultimate control,so na na nana naaaaa"

    [/ QUOTE ]
    That's precisely why I had to forego the DSG option, despite its beautiful twin-clutch system.

    I wish I could have the twin clutches with manual control...

    Whoever figures out the DSG computer will surely have a boatload of clients!!
    #11
  13. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The corners I'm talking about are ideally spaced so that you hit the red line at more or less the exact point you start braking.
    There's no need for an extra gearchange,yet the DSG does it for you.
    It threw me as I was expecting the extra engine braking I would normally get by being at high revs.The fact that the DSG changed up left me 'freewheeling' into the corner a bit.

    Why on earth Audi have done this in the DSG is beyond me as it kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing in a way,doesn't it ?

    A case of "we'll let you play with the gearchanges,but we still have ultimate control,so na na nana naaaaa"

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ha, got you now mate, I can see that being a pain as it changes up as your're about to jump on the grabbers and knock it down a couple of cogs ( now three cogs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )
    #12
  14. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    I can only assume that VW (who developed the DSG in conjunction with Borg-Warner) did a fair amount of market research before they decided exactly how the software should control the gearbox.

    Personally I prefer the tip-tronic mode to work as it does at the moment. I use mine in tip-tronic almost all the time and the 2.0 TDI reaches max revs in 1st and 2nd so quickly that it's nice that it changes up automatically when it reaches max revs. After that I shift using the lever or paddles up and down as I require when driving. I personally think the current set-up is ideally suited to a Diesel engine with it's short rev range.

    Perhaps if you want to hold max revs you bought a car with the wrong type of gearbox. This is the one thing that a manual box can do that the DSG does not. It has been clearly stated in all the information and articles that I have read about the DSG that it would perform in this way which is precisely the reason I much preferred it to the 2.0 TDI with a manual gearbox.

    Horses for courses and all that.
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  15. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    That's fair enough David,but why do Audi assume a driver hitting max revs in a DSG car is bad and requires intervention,whereas it's obviously fine in their manual versions ?

    You must see how some of think that's strange.

    I wouldn't say I regret buying the DSG,but this particular 'foible' is a minus point for sure.

    Thankfully,it's not something I'll come across very often,or at least until I see someone else 'tramping on' in front of me again... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
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  16. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Thankfully,it's not something I'll come across very often,or at least until I see someone else 'tramping on' in front of me again... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know your 'running' the car in, but struggling against a 'warm' fiesta. Ford haven't made a fiesta with any poke since the RS1800. You need to make mental note ' must try harder' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
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  17. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    I never thought I'd defend a Ford but...

    Fiesta ST
    Bold and aerodynamic, the Fiesta ST is rally-bred through and through – with exceptional roadholding and breathtaking performance directly inspired by the ultimate performance Fiesta, the Super 1600 Rally Car. With a powerful 2.0 litre 150 PS Duratec petrol engine plus lowered and modified suspension, sports-tuned steering and close-ratio gearbox, all riding on monster 17” 11-spoke alloys, this is performance Fiesta driving at its most exciting.

    'Exciting' might be a bit of a stretch but it's got 150bhp (claimed)
    #16
  18. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    I would have passed him quicker if the DSG had behaved like a bloody manual....

    I think it may have been one of those ST Fiestas.
    It was quite a nice deep metallic purple,with a body kit and nice big wheels.
    The bodykit and wheels looked more factory than Halfords,so I assume it was a standard model.

    I did get past them both,but I wouldn't say I exactly rocketed past them.

    If it was one of those,with 150bhp,then it power-to-weight ratio is probably considerably better then my sportback's.

    The guy in the MR2 was a bit of a girl,as befits the car....
    #17
  19. COLDSTEEL
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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    That sounded good. CTRL-C by any chance from their website?
    #18
  20. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I never thought I'd defend a Ford but...

    Fiesta ST
    Bold and aerodynamic, the Fiesta ST is rally-bred through and through – with exceptional roadholding and breathtaking performance directly inspired by the ultimate performance Fiesta, the Super 1600 Rally Car. With a powerful 2.0 litre 150 PS Duratec petrol engine plus lowered and modified suspension, sports-tuned steering and close-ratio gearbox, all riding on monster 17” 11-spoke alloys, this is performance Fiesta driving at its most exciting.

    'Exciting' might be a bit of a stretch but it's got 150bhp (claimed)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry Eeef, I forgot about the latest ST. I bet it's a great drive with decent poke, but ford have styled it a bit on the 'chav' side for my taste. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #19
  21. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    bowfer - I don't think Audi think that hitting max revs is necessarily bad, they just think it's time to change up in the same way as the revs going too low it's time to change down.. With a manual gearbox they are not in a position to decide one way or the other.

    As I said I personaly prefer the gearbox to behave just the way it does at the moment.
    #20
  22. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    bowfer, forgot to add, that was in a 'lets give it some' mood on my way to Mintlaw this afternoon. That was until I ended up behind an 05 Carrera 4s. Of course I stayed behind him at all times out of respect /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #21
  23. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    Nice one Japper...
    You wonder what they're thinking as they keep seeing you in their mirrors.
    They must be wondering why they spend thousandsa year on servicing,insurance,fuel and tyres.

    There was a youngish guy in an Aston DB7 driving along the North Deeside road between Culter and Cults on Saturday.
    Just back and forth in 30-40mph traffic.
    What's that all about ???
    Get out in the country and thrash it man !!!
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  24. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Nice one Japper...
    You wonder what they're thinking as they keep seeing you in their mirrors.
    They must be wondering why they spend thousandsa year on servicing,insurance,fuel and tyres.

    There was a youngish guy in an Aston DB7 driving along the North Deeside road between Culter and Cults on Saturday.
    Just back and forth in 30-40mph traffic.
    What's that all about ???
    Get out in the country and thrash it man !!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's the cults version of the Boully bashers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    A higher class of d*ckhead /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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  25. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Apr 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Nice one Japper...
    You wonder what they're thinking as they keep seeing you in their mirrors.
    They must be wondering why they spend thousandsa year on servicing,insurance,fuel and tyres.

    There was a youngish guy in an Aston DB7 driving along the North Deeside road between Culter and Cults on Saturday.
    Just back and forth in 30-40mph traffic.
    What's that all about ???
    Get out in the country and thrash it man !!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think he was still running it in and was driving it like a tart. He was actually holding me up, but never want to overtake something that nice and fast. You always think they'll label you as an idiot know nothing and that you'll brag to all yer mates that you beat a porsche, not...
    #24
  26. imported_S_Line
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    imported_S_Line Guest

    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Did the Fiesta Look Like this one ?

    [​IMG]
    #25
  27. Amchlolor
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Jesus no....
    What a monstrosity !

    I tried the 'unwanted gearchange' scenario last night and it is,officially,fecking annoying.

    The car is still building power quite strongly as it approaches the red-line then,wallop,it changes up for you.
    It's nowehere near breathless or running out of revs.

    I'd be one of the first to buy 'a gadget' that over-rides this pedantic pish.
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  28. Fuzzman
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    So /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    It is looking that I may be going for the manual version
    #27
  29. Amchlolor
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    I still wouldn't say I regret going for the DSG,but it's such a nonsensical 'flaw' that it beggars belief.

    I suppose the bottom line is;

    If you want total and utter control of your engine,even up to and into the red line,then manual is the answer.

    If you're not into 'thrashing' engines,and fancy the option of a full automatic sometimes,then DSG is great.
    #28
  30. nervus
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    The A3 3.2 DSG does the same thing yet interestingly, the R32 has different DSG software, which allows you to hold gears all the way to the rev-limiter. In fact it will just keep bouncing off the limiter till you change up.

    I know the software can be programmed for 3.2's so maybe its available for all DSG's???
    #29
  31. JaminBen
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I know the software can be programmed for 3.2's so maybe its available for all DSG's???

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'll bet it's possible! And whoever fingers it out will definitely have loads of clients...
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  32. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Me me me me me ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jump.gif
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  33. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    I've just sent a note to Richard at Forge to see what he thinks.
    #32
  34. nervus
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Its available at one of the tuners for the A3 3.2 for sure!
    #33
  35. MateloT
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    My dsg goes up into the red line with the gas floored, there cant be much between when it forces gear change and the rev limiter. OK so it does change up but why would you want to bounce of the limiter anyway?
    #34
  36. Amchlolor
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    MateloT
    If I wanted an automatic,I'd leave it in 'D'.
    If it's in manual,it should be manual.
    Simple as that.
    I want to be able to hold onto a gear if I want.
    I don't want the car making my decisions for me when it's in supposed manual mode.

    No-one is condoning sitting with the 'valves bouncing' for long periods.

    You'd probably be surprised at the difference between the DSG changing up and rev limiter though.
    I bet Audi have built in a fair safety margin.
    #35
  37. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Bowfer - surely if you want a manual you should buy a manual. A DSG is not a manual and was never intended to be a manual. If people want to hold the red line revs they should buy a manual not a DSG.

    The DSG is just lovely as it is.
    #36
  38. nervus
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    nervus Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Nobody wants to sit bouncing off the limiter, its just an example of the R32's software not over-riding your commands when in manual mode.

    Whats the point in the manual mode if still changes up without prompting? Fair enough if its at a point which could be harmful to the engine. but thats not the case, in the 3.2's for sure, hence why VW changed it for the R32.
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  39. Amchlolor
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    "Bowfer - surely if you want a manual you should buy a manual. A DSG is not a manual and was never intended to be a manual. If people want to hold the red line revs they should buy a manual not a DSG.
    The DSG is just lovely as it is."

    Sometimes I want a manual,sometimes I want an auto.
    That's why I went for the DSG as it seemed to be the best of both worlds.

    If you like the car deciding when it's time to change up for you,even in manual mode,then good for you.
    I don't,and if a 'fix' becomes available I'll buy it.

    I still think the DSG is basically a great system.It just needs this foible 'tweaked' to suit me,and others it would seem.
    #38
  40. h5djr
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    Bowfer - as long as remains a 'fix' for those drivers who want it in the same way as some drivers like to have their cars 'chipped' to get a little extra speed then that's fine. What I would not like is for Audi to change the software for future DSGs to this format.

    Perhaps one of the tuners would like to look into it, although I doubt if they would be enough market. Most of the people who want to drive in that way will probably already have a manual gearbox but I suppose anything is possible - at a price.
    #39
  41. Amchlolor
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    [Apr 5, 2005]
    David,it's a moot point as it's the way the car came and that's that.

    If,in manual mode,it behaved like a manual and happily bounced off the rev limiter until you told it to change,you'd probably have been quite happy with that as well.
    In fact,you may never have noticed as you'd have changed up by then !

    Maybe,in that scenario,you'd have started a thread asking for an auto-change up function ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
    #40

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