1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Drivers who warm their car up on a cold morning

Discussion in 'Rants & Raves' started by benw123, Mar 17, 2007.

  1. Geordie Mike
    Offline

    Geordie Mike Yeee-haw

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    520
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    #41
  2. silver75
    Offline

    silver75 Big Ron

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Messages:
    3,265
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Love the way folk get lulled into these arguments with Andymac :)

    Ive seen the guy argue for days about anything from Big Brother to the Pope :)
    #42
  3. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    31
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Mike, it's the other way round, which was my point. If you have an oil temp gauge you'll see it climbs a lot slower than the coolant temp, and gets hotter than the coolant when at full operating temp, around 100-105 degrees. So using the coolant temp to judge whether the engine is at operating temp is not totally accurate, you need to wait another 5-10 mins for the engine oil to catch up.
    Silver - not my fault no ones up to the job! I just like a good debate.
    If someone puts a good case together based on facts (and actually uses the queens english to do it) then I'll be the first to concede. If someone puts forward some daft opinion based on tabloid propaganda or just plain stupidity I feel it is incumbant on all of us to put them right, or at least make them look stupid.
    #43
  4. ChriS3
    Offline

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,235
    Likes Received:
    12
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    I have a great button on my car's alarm fob. It's called remote start. I can sit in my kitchen drinking my morning coffee, push a button and know that the car will be semi-warm and half lubricated by the time I get to it.

    I don't run the car cold. I have it serviced every 3000 miles and flushed regularly so I don't worry about soot build-up, and the engine will be rebuit soon so I'm not concerned about engine wear :)
    #44
  5. smitch
    Offline

    smitch Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,588
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    #45
  6. smitch
    Offline

    smitch Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,588
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Be good if birds had a button like that...........
    #46
  7. jcs356
    Offline

    jcs356 Brum brum

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    36
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Better not leave it parked in gear then.
    #47
  8. smitch
    Offline

    smitch Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,588
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    JCS356

    Is your Speedster yellow???
    #48
  9. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    31
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    They do, it's called shopping!
    #49
  10. smitch
    Offline

    smitch Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,588
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Haven't used that word for ages, good vocab. :salute:
    #50
  11. benw123
    Offline

    benw123 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Something we agree on then Andy. Oil does indeed take much longer to warm up than coolant. My previous car was a Focus ST170 which had an oil temp gauge, and that wouldn't start moving along its scale until well after the coolant. Would only start using the full performance after then.
    #51
  12. Geordie Mike
    Offline

    Geordie Mike Yeee-haw

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    520
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Fair enough then.
    #52
  13. benw123
    Offline

    benw123 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Not quite. An engine working at higher revs or, in particular, under load, will generate more heat faster than one at idle. And because it generates more heat, it warms up more quickly, and this in turn means it will use less fuel because the engine operates in its cold cycle for a shorter period.

    I can assure you that if you start your car from cold and let it idle for five minutes, it will probably only be as warm as starting and driving it for around two minutes. This isn't speculation either; when I used to do oil changes on old Fords I used to run, I'd drive up to the end of the road and back again (warmer oil drains more easily), and the engine would already be very hot to the touch.
    #53
  14. Geordie Mike
    Offline

    Geordie Mike Yeee-haw

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    520
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    Yes, but it uses more fuel in order to get up to that temperature faster does it not? Therefore producing more CO2 & soot faster, but possibly still (about) the same amount? I know it will heat up faster, but I'm wondering if it will use significantly less fuel in getting to that heat faster, in which case there is less soot/CO2/whatever. If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter how quickly you heat it up, you're going to get (about) the same amount of soot deposited until you are at the correct temperature.
    #54
  15. benw123
    Offline

    benw123 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 21, 2007]
    I understand what you're saying, but from cold the fuel/air mixture is very rich and will remain like this for longer when idling, because the car takes longer to warm up. Drive off, and while you will indeed use more fuel than just idling, the extra work from the engine generates more heat to end the cold start procedure sooner and the mixture becomes leaner.

    Remember, even if you've warmed the car up, you've still got to drive away and complete the same journey using a similar amount of fuel.
    #55
  16. Geordie Mike
    Offline

    Geordie Mike Yeee-haw

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    520
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 22, 2007]
    Yes, that's fine. What I'm getting back to is the soot deposition only.

    I accept that

    a) you will use more overall fuel if you have your car on for 10 minutes before you complete the exact same drive
    b) the engine will warm up faster the more work is done in a given time

    What I don't buy into is that there is a difference in the amount of fuel required in order to heat that engine up. It requires the same amount of energy to reach temperature x degrees while the engine is operating in it's cold range, so the deposition of soot on the spark plugs is independent of whether the engine is idling or mid-range. The only place the engine can get the energy to heat up from is the fuel. It takes the same amount of fuel either way. One of the original points was that you get more soot deposit by idling to get up to temperature than by driving away from cold.

    It's like a 2 kW kettle or a 3 kW kettle - both will boil 2 litres of water using the same amount of energy. The 3 kW kettle with do it faster, but use more energy getting there. You still get billed the same though.
    #56
  17. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    31
    [Mar 22, 2007]
    The supposed damage to the engine is dependent on so many other factors this idle/warm up issue is almost irrelevant.
    Which car will be in better condition:
    Low mileage car that does the school/shopping run every day, round trip 6 miles, no warm up.
    Higher mileage car that does the frosty warm up on the drive then blatts down the motorway every day at 70mph.
    I know which one I'd prefer. It amazes me that people (even on here) are put off by high mileage cars and would prefer an older vehicle with low mileage.
    Low mileage yes, but mileage that's very hard on the engine.
    I had to do the school run this morning (6 miles round trip, no warm up) and although the coolant reached 90 degrees, the oil was only just registering at 60 degrees when I got back home.
    Do that every morning and your engine will wear quite badly, so all in all I'd say the frosty warm up on the drive is preferable and better for the engine even if your driving a short journey in rush hour.
    #57
  18. Beerzo
    Offline

    Beerzo Masa'warty 3200... Talk To Me!

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 22, 2007]
    I love it when you here someone trying to start their car specially on cold days and its ticking over then it bursts into life then they rev the tits out it for a second or two. Your like what the f**k are you doing!
    #
    #58
  19. smitch
    Offline

    smitch Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,588
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Mar 22, 2007]
    The boys in our workshop do that.

    They get in their cars at the end of the day, fire em up then rag the **** out of it down the road like they're at ******* Santa Pod.

    And we call em engineers?!?!?!?!
    #59
  20. benw123
    Offline

    benw123 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,863
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Mar 22, 2007]
    Soot is a separate issue to engine temperature. Soot on spark plugs is caused by a rich mixture. In older cars with carburettors, if they were incorrectly adjusted you could end up with sooty plugs after a few thousand miles (ever see that page in a Haynes manual with all the spark plug pictures?). However, in modern cars with ECUs and fuel injection, the only way this is going to happen is if the car is left idling for extended periods, particularly during the ECU's cold start procedure.

    The mixture has to be rich to overcome the extra friction from cold and make the engine turn, because the throttle is closed at idle. However, when you drive away, you're opening the throttle all the time and the mixture will become leaner.
    #60
  21. Isoproturon
    Offline

    Isoproturon Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Oct 4, 2007]
    Quite apart from the theft issue, leaving the car unattended with the engine running is an offence.
    #61
  22. tjm69
    Offline

    tjm69 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Oct 5, 2007]
    Remember a mate doing it after a nightshift, 5-30am frosted over starts car shuts door....couple of seconds later car locks itself.
    He'd got a clarion or toad alarm fitted and it was tempermentle thing that locked it to stop you being car-jacked.
    by the time he'd got a lift home got spares got back to work the thing and run out of fuel.
    god did we take the piss next night lol
    #62
  23. mattfinn
    Offline

    mattfinn Smoking is good for you

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    6
    [Oct 5, 2007]
    YEEHAA! Just thought, this is the first year as being a home/garage owner, so no more icy starts!! That is until I cany be arsed to park it in the garage overnight!

    Roll on winter! :cold:
    #63
  24. craigynett
    Offline

    craigynett Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    11
    [Oct 5, 2007]

    Just like me ;)

    Well, provided I go out in the Evo that is. Not quite enough room in their for me Fiesta or my g/fs A3!! If it freezes over whilst at work I start the engine whilst the windows are getting warm water treatment. Air con & heated front & rear screens sort the inside of the windows ;) I'm usually driving off within 30 secs of starting the engine.

    If i'm going out in my Fiesta I start the engine, give outside of windows warm water treatment & sit in the car till the blowers have cleared inside of windows, which can be 5mins sometimes.

    My g/f wipes the inside of her windows with a cloth. I NEVER do that. Can't do with all the smears etc. Especially when the sun comes out. Can't see bugger all cos of the smudges etc.

    If I was too bothered about CO2 & fuel costs then I wouldn't have bought an Evo. I'd buy 1 of those crappy electric things!! But seeing as tho i'm not a tree hugger I happily live with the fact I get about 25mpg on a good day & on a fun day about 10mpg :arco:


    Craig:cool:
    #64
  25. audi80sport
    Offline

    audi80sport is it home time yet?

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Oct 7, 2007]
    i would love to have the option to warm my car up before setting off but its a alarm goes off...snooze...alarm...snooze...alarm...OH SH!T B@ll@cks F&£K run to car drive off while clearing the windscreen with a demister pad getting blinded by the sun lol completly different subject but who ever invented the snooze button? why do they put it on alarms? you set it to get you up at a specified time. you wouldnt have one on your fire alarm would you!!!???
    #65
  26. jojo
    Offline

    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    26,236
    Likes Received:
    1,676
    [Oct 7, 2007]
    Snooze button = 5 minutes extra sleep, a godsend to some, but yes, I agree that most of us abuse the thing too much haha.
    #66

Share This Page