DQ250 to DQ500 swap

[S3Alex]

Haha, I actually have an MQB gearbox in the wifes S3. Although I'm not sure how happy she'll be with me testing with it

You are right about friction plate efficiency maps & cooling though, I had a look at what TVS tweak versus what other DSG mappers do (as I originally had APR DSG map that was shocking).

I'm very keen to find out how the DQ500 deals with high levels of torque,over a wide rpm range.

Andy has assured me that it WILL cope with over 500lbs on the stock clutches,and clearly the Syvecs ECU was designed with DSG control in mind,so fingers crossed....

 

[grainqey]

Oh yes, getting something to work when everybody says that it wont work without looking at it properly.

It'd be interesting to see what maps TVS change over the u.k based tuners as they seem to have a much greater understanding of the capability of the mechatronics on the DSG's

 

[grainqey]

I'm very keen to find out how the DQ500 deals with high levels of torque,over a wide rpm range.

Andy has assured me that it WILL cope with over 500lbs on the stock clutches,and clearly the Syvecs ECU was designed with DSG control in mind,so fingers crossed....

From speaking to Andy he sounds like he knows what he's doing rather than somebody that got told what to do and making it sound like he knows what he's on about - I suppose that's probably linked to him and syvecs development of the ecu's

 

[S3Alex]

From speaking to Andy he sounds like he knows what he's doing rather than somebody that got told what to do and making it sound like he knows what he's on about - I suppose that's probably linked to him and syvecs development of the ecu's

For sure.....I've always found him very helpful and willing to spend time talking about why something is or isn't a good idea.

 

[grainqey]

I recall Andy saying about the mechanical issues of trying to fit the diesel dq500 rather than the RS3 gearbox as with the tdi box, if you go for the tdi box you're stuck with all the other tdi specific bits - it's not so much of an issue for me as I'm only fwd though the tdi transfer box mounting of the support bracket seems to be different on the dq500 transfer box to such as the s3 transfer box (the top two bolts are closer together on the A3 4 cylinder transfer box)

 

[DeckedS3]

If you decide to try mapping the gearbox I'd like to come along for the ride. I've got lots of links for hardware and software but not i'm not confident enough to commit. My Ed30 is DSG and it's getting uncomfortable at low speed, very jerky when pulling away from stationary as if it's on/off but perfectly fine above 15-20mph so maybe it's a good time for me to start tinkering. Do you have a good source of literature to read?

 

[grainqey]

At this moment in time I'm waiting in the background. There are odd tools that can map both can and uds but not sure which is the best and sometimes read conflicting info. Google is your friend. Some stuff I get from ecu connections and some stuff mhm forum then such as the momentum for my swap was Vw vortex and I ordered my dq500 and 250 cables from Germany. The dq500 pinouts will be on there now however I could put them on here too if anybody is interested (5pins used on dq500 and 6 on the dq250) there are about 8 pins wired on the dq250 but just seems to be auxiliary shiz (no k-line on the dq500)

 

[grainqey]

Interesting update for anybody interested. The mechatronics are physically identical = I now have a diesel tiguan mqb gearbox with an rs3 mechatronics and speed sensor in it!

Anybody beware that the plug for the speed sensor in these is a little ****** to unplug - it's not that easy even with the gearbox out on a plus note though, you don't need to remove anything other than the speed sensor and take the sump cover off to take it out (8/9 bolts holding it in then just pulls out)

There's also a drain plug for the mechatronics sump on the side at the front corner (8mm spline bit from looking at it)

I'll post the pics up when I'm on the laptop

Alex

 

[grainqey]

mechatronic comparison:

RS3 front

Tiguan front

RS3 rear

Tiguan rear


Swapping this over has gotten rid of my missing signal fault code in the gearbox on vcds too

 

[grainqey]

Just another little update, I've been struggling with a missing signal in the databus for a while - thought I'd got rid of it when I swapped to the RS3 mechatronics but hadn't

Anyway, long story short I'd bought a DQ250 mechatronic connector with wire ends in it before going for the swap so I went back over the connections on this which go back into the car.

There is a duplicate of the ground and live so I've spliced my off-cut of loom (rather than butchering an RS3 gearbox harness or my cars harness I bought a piece of loom to go from the RS3 gearbox harness to the cars mechatronics connector)

the RS3 loom had a spare pin which I ignored until now, I'm going to try it in the empty pin in the car connector (there is the K-line which I doubt it is, and there is another which is unspecified so i'm going to have a play tomorrow)!

I'll update with the outcome!

Thanks
Alex

P.S something I have noted is that there seems to be a lot of either B.S about this swap on the web or if anybody gets it to work then it's stated as being with custom CAN gateways etc etc! it'll be interesting to see what is actually needed for this in the end with only stock components and control of the engine and gearbox.

I also noticed I forgot to code the headlight leveling on the can gateway today so corrected that - ooops!

 

[DeckedS3]

I think the wiring is just different on some cars. I ended up wiring mine completely differently to someone else. I'm sure you'll get it to work eventually on stock gateway.

 

[grainqey]

Updaaate.... It now turns over - yay!

I'm just about to go check for fault codes post cranking (but not started it yet)

I'll do a full wiring pinout with details so it'll make it easier for anybody following my hipster-ness

btw decked, was yours dg to begin with or manual to dsg and which dsg box have you got on?

I'm using a 2010 onwards A3 can gateway (same part number as RS3 with 8P prefix)- the older A3 can gateway wont communicate with the later dq500 (it's displays but wont do any functions like clear faults)

Thanks
Alex

 

[DeckedS3]

I'll do a full wiring pinout with details so it'll make it easier for anybody following my hipster-ness

btw decked, was yours dg to begin with or manual to dsg and which dsg box have you got on?

Mine was manual and I fitted it with a DQ250. I'd be interested what pins you've had to swap/move. It's a weird feeling going from a quick manual car to the same car with DSG. You really appreciate how quick it really is.

 

[grainqey]

Mine was manual and I fitted it with a DQ250. I'd be interested what pins you've had to swap/move. It's a weird feeling going from a quick manual car to the same car with DSG. You really appreciate how quick it really is.

I've had an interesting conversation with the person that helped me solve issues for this swap and decided not to post in the open domain about the actual wiring - I've looked for the wiring multiple times and it doesn't seem to be in the open domain

Sorry everybody - I do know the wiring if anybody is stuck however

still not sure if there is a direct fit transfer box support bracket for the TDI transfer box on a petrol bottom end (as the hole spacing seems to be different between petrol and diesel and also the bottom end bolt holes are in different places depending if petrol or diesel so it's easier to use just RS3 parts

Decked, I'll PM you shortly

Thanks
Alex

 

[DeckedS3]

When I did my gearbox, I know I wasn't the first, but for some reason no one would share the info. So I figured it out with the help of someone else going through the same pain as me.
I don't mind sharing this as I created it when I converted mine from manual to DSG (DQ250).

 

[S3Alex]

I remember you having these issues.....it really does seem odd at times when people won't for whatever reason share information.

It's like these are national secrets or really commercially valuable,given the numbers of people actually doing this.
I saw a programme on the box the other night about someone rebuilding a Merlin engine......his problem was the same,i.e. at first no-one in the restoration community would share anything at all with him,so like you,he figured it all out himself,and is now one of the most sought after R-R Merlin rebuilders.

Funny how secrecy can turn round to bite the persons in question.

 

[DeckedS3]

I get it if you're sharing someone else's information. When I was doing it, it was incredibly frustrating with lots of trial and error but it was fun at the same time with a great sense of achievement when I get it all running again.

 

[grainqey]

I could tell everybody how to do it but after much faffing about ordering flashing cables, buying a tdi box and having the issue of not being able to get the mechatronics flashed to a petrol complete file and having to get an rs3 mechatronics one way or another.

I'm just not willing to post it so xyz tuning company can then make lots of money with all the issues solved, next we'll have "generic garage services" offering the swap

If anybody is struggling I can simply be messaged via pm and offer assistance - they'll come straight here from Google

Put basically, the flashing cable doesn't need as many pins to flash but if you look at the flashing loom and the pins from a hacked off mechatronics connector then you'll see there are (3 in the case of dq250) pins that are not in the flashing loom, in the case of the dq500 there only looks to be 1 extra pin from flashing only to running it though it looks like anybody doing this mod like I have won't have the cluster diagnostics for the gearbox as that's on the k-line which isn't on the dq500

Thanks
Alex

 

[DeckedS3]

Makes sense I guess. A manual to DSG swap isn't cheap!

 

[S3Alex]

Makes sense I guess. A manual to DSG swap isn't cheap!

Haven't even seen the parts list for mine yet....
Let alone the cost.

ANyhow....the gearbox is being wired up as we speak,and Andy hopes to have it running by the end of the week.

 

[grainqey]

The costs are rather a lot, especially if you have to buy everything new (from memory the selector lever is around 5-600 for just that)

Think the costs for mine are currently approx. 3K - got very lucky with the Tiguan driveshafts and using some used parts and my car is already DSG!

I'm currently considering swapping the front ARB so I can then later do AWD if I can be bothered with more wiring! (my transfer box rear flange is approx. 1/2" if that from my front ARB)

Thanks
Alex

 

[S3Alex]

I know...
I'm looking at around 10k for this latest run of insanity when it's all added up.

Does include engine,head,gearbox and programming so I suppose that's a bargain....

 

[HHS3]

ANyhow....the gearbox is being wired up as we speak,and Andy hopes to have it running by the end of the week.

I was at Storm on Thursday and it looked as though a lot of work had taken place since I was last there in October, fingers crossed she'll be running by the end of the week!

 

[S3Alex]

I was at Storm on Thursday and it looked as though a lot of work had taken place since I was last there in October, fingers crossed she'll be running by the end of the week!

They've been busy for sure.

Andy's working on the wiring now and then the programming needs to be done.
Then all the other complicated stuff that I don't do...

 

[DeckedS3]

Put basically, the flashing cable doesn't need as many pins to flash but if you look at the flashing loom and the pins from a hacked off mechatronics connector then you'll see there are (3 in the case of dq250) pins that are not in the flashing loom, in the case of the dq500 there only looks to be 1 extra pin from flashing only to running it though it looks like anybody doing this mod like I have won't have the cluster diagnostics for the gearbox as that's on the k-line which isn't on the dq500

What flashing cable have you gone for? And what software are you using?

 

[grainqey]

What flashing cable have you gone for? And what software are you using?

I got the cable (from memory) from ecu cables.de but I'll double check tomorrow as I'm at work tonight.

I use winols but I've never actually flashed any of the mechatronics versions because I'm waiting until I can get a multiplexer that will definitely do the two different versions of can and I need to see which are still only flash able via the dsg direct cable (think the UDS you have to read directly but can flash over OBD)

I've got the cables for the dq250 and 500

Thanks
Alex

 

[DeckedS3]

So, maybe needs a new thread to discuss this. I've looked at those cables before and I can't see how they connect to a laptop. One end obviously connects to the mechatronic unit and the other end is an ODB interface. the cable is active so it hooks up to the battery. What do you use from the laptop to ODB? VCDS or something else?

 

[grainqey]

So, maybe needs a new thread to discuss this. I've looked at those cables before and I can't see how they connect to a laptop. One end obviously connects to the mechatronic unit and the other end is an ODB interface. the cable is active so it hooks up to the battery. What do you use from the laptop to ODB? VCDS or something else?

Agreed lol! Basically one end is the mechatronics end then you pick the other end depending what multiplexer you're using as that determines the other end for when you order the cable. The problem is cable drivers for whatever software you use, ftdi seems to be one but doesn't work with everything. The vcds cable will work with kwp 2000 but that doesn't seem to have the compatability to flash dsgs (from memory all this so if you read up there's a possibility some is not correct)

So basically we're after a multiplexer from laptop to car/cable and then the drivers for that cable - finding the one with the compatability is the part I'm on as the multiplexer will come with the driver. There's one called x17, think the byteshooter can be used for non mqb and there are a couple of others but I'm after one that will do both normal dq250 and the mqb dq 500 and I also want to know if they can only read with the direct cable and if it can read + write via obd or only write, I don't really care but just need to make it work as it says - I've not had my hands on a mechatronic from post 2015 which is supposed to be mqb however I got told UDS was mqb so it looks as though all dq500's are mqb (as both dq500's I've got run on UDS - 2012 rs3 and 2013 tdi tiguan)

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

I've created the thread for the dsg mapping in the tuning sub forum

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

Update:

It runs and drives - the driving bit currently is in a fashion (we'll come to that) but another issue is it looks like the oil cooler might be ******

So I've ordered more parts in the shape of a gearbox cooler and the O-rings to go with it and looking at booking it in for a gearbox oil change to make sure I didn't drop either a bo-lark when I filled it OR incase there is any water in it from the oil cooler - water is going somewhere at the moment but going to check today to see if it's just while the water gets in the heater matrix etc

I think it's likely the oil cooler is leaking into the gearbox as when I had the mechatronics out the tiguan mechatronics looked like there was mayo/foam like substance on it

There's also a possibility I have a 2013/05 -> 2014/11 3rd gear synchromesh of doom gearbox as the ride is like being thrown at the window around 2/3rd gear in manual mode when changing down, it also drops right down in the revs

On a positive though it seems to go up the gears OK in drive and 7th gear is nice and long - The ratios actually seem fine

So the list of jobs to do is currently:

Swap oil cooler
*Double check the production date of the gearbox (it looked like 2012 but it's a bit worn off) - it's something like 05 07 12 but that could quite easily be a 13 I suppose which would take it into the affected range (http://www.richard-hamilton.co.uk/temp/Audi/TPI_0BH_7_speed.pdf)
*swap oil cooler - 10days delivery at TPS - argh!
*get gearbox oil swapped - I can't fill from below so its a PITA
*hit it with a hammer a couple of times alternating between gearbox and my head lol
*drive it to check for coolant level dropping and see if the changes in manual mode become any smoother
*perform basic settings for ABS/angle sensor so I don't have to detach my arms on the steering wheel!

P.S to anybody else looking at this, in hindsight I may have decided to go external oil cooler as you can get a blanking plate/external cooler plate from Russia of all places (there's one on ebay) so there's no risk of the oil cooler letting go and coolant contamination, also the pipework for the coolant would be a lot easier to bodge - read modify

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

It continues...

The gearbox seems ok but interestingly the MAF has decided it wants to die which would explain a few things - just been out in it and it was fine until it warmed up (presumably running closed loop then going to open loop - also it's briefly ok when started up which suggests this too)

Tried running it without the MAF and it's fine and also tested a known knackered one and it ran like a bag of spanners like the MAF that was on

It seems as though the gearbox has to adapt in all three driving modes to a degree - did drive and manual to a degree then ran it in sport a bit on my way from work which was interesting!

 

[DeckedS3]

Did you calibrate the box after install? Clutch pressure etc?

 

[grainqey]

There is only basic settings and adaptions/clutch learning/gear change counter and couple of other things which I reset once I'd checked the oil level.

There is a drop down list in basic settings rather than using the measuring blocks from looking when I was on VCDS

I could try the clutch safety basic setting if I check which measuring block it was on the dq250 lol - Rosstech lists nothing on the dq500 gearboxes

Thanks
Alex

 

[DeckedS3]

They must of made some changes then. I know you can do it on the DQ250. Worth looking and DQ250 blocks.

 

[grainqey]

They must of made some changes then. I know you can do it on the DQ250. Worth looking and DQ250 blocks.

Was going to say, I've done the dq250 measuring block basic settings a few times (periodically adjusting the clutches and when I've changed the fluid)

There must surely be the measuring blocks in the dq500 but there's nothing in the public domain about it other than the "very basic" settings haha!

I don't think rosstech even lists the 0bh basic settings screen

I'll give it a whirl when I get a minute

Thanks
Alex

 

[grainqey]

Update:
I've had my TDI DQ500 fitted and running about a week now - been plodding to work and back with what turned out to be a bit of a boost leak which I sorted Friday (ended up with a new MAF as it was showing the failed MAF symptoms but oh well)

My DQ500 has been a bit snatchy at light loads in manual mode but it still seems to be getting better each time I drive it. I also have a rather annoying exhaust rattle to get rid of tomorrow hopefully! I went to Birmingham and back - approx. 250 miles round trip and it was behaving weirdly under loads at low rpm (almost as if trying to limit the load and then slipping the clutch briefly but then decided it was going to work properly on the way back, presumably it was probably while it properly adapted) I don't really mind but it can be frustrating if you have passengers.

Probably going to swap the TDI gearbox for the RS3 version but might wait and then pay somebody to do the actual swap as I really CBA!

It's pretty straight forward to swap just the gearbox but an utter **** to angle the gearbox as you lift it in which if you have the gearbox tool is a piece of cake - so may pay e.g audi to do it and see if they have any RS3's to ogle at and see what auto courtesy cars they have - I may end up talking myself into fitting an RS3 engine at the rate I'm going as I loved my Volvo (read audi) 5pots!

Thanks
Alex

 

[Bluepower]

This is a great thread to read and follow!!
Maybe you could also sum-up what exactly you needed to swap/modify to physically install the gearbox to get it running(so not talking about coding)?

tia!

 

[S3Alex]

This is a great thread to read and follow!!
Maybe you could also sum-up what exactly you needed to swap/modify to physically install the gearbox to get it running(so not talking about coding)?

tia!

Quite a big list even if you start with a DSG in the first place.

Includes RS3 driveshafts and transfer case.
Plus engine and gearbox mounts and shift mechanism if you haven't already got one.

Then steering wheel and appropriate level steering module for the paddle interface.

I was very fortunate to have the help of Storm Developments for mine.

 

[grainqey]

The general overview of swaps and modifications required based on currently being DQ250 is:

Mechanicals - as said by Alex above, the RS3 gearbox, transfer box, flywheel and driveshafts (tiguan items are the same but make sure the gearbox is off a petrol as the ratios are more suitable - diesel 1st gear is a crawler gear and RPM software limit) you'll also need the support bracket off an RS3 ( I didn't so had to bodge two brackets together) You need to drill the rear gearbox bolt hole in the dogbone mount to 12mm and install the M12 fine bolt rather than the M10 as per DQ250 (rear bolt of the 2 forward bolts on the box) - the rs3 dogbone doesn't fit as its too long unless Alex's had all the engine mounts changed to sort this issue!

Electrical - can gateway from an RS3/Tiguan/A3 2010> , selector lever from RS3 or Tiguan, repin the connection to suit with an RS3 connector ( I did mine with an 8 pin window regulator connector instead of the dq250 plug) and used the loom adaptor from an RS3 (approx. 12" long) Part # is 8P0971499A

Coding required - Can gateway only

HTH
Alex

 

[macradiators]

Hello from Romania.
I have done a dq500 on my 2010 Leon tdi big turbo , 340hp/605nm, 3 months ago and everything works nice. I've done about 5k on this gearbox, pretty happy with it.
I just have an error similar to yours (databus). Should i replace the gateway also and code it?
I went from dq250 to dq500 from audi q3 2014 NYD gearbox, similar to yours.
If somebody needs help with the wiring its pretty simple, i have the connections saved, just removed pins from old dq250 connector and plugged into the new dq500 connector.

Right now i will have a new software prepared for it with improved shift times, 750Nm torque limit, kickdown removed plus some other tweaks and increased clamping pressure on discs.

If you can offer some info regarding the gateway would be very nice. I left my original one in place and have the databus error.
Thanks!