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DPF delete = MOT failure!

ElliotB Jan 27, 2014

  1. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    Take #2
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  2. Brodster

    Brodster Well-Known Member Team Ibis VCDS Map User Audi Avant Owner Group Audi S4

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    No-one has upset me in the slightest mate - far from it. If the mods decide to close or amend a thread then obviously had grounds to do it.
     
    ElliotB likes this.
  3. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    It would be nice if they could clarify. As I wrote to you in the private message this warning is to both garages and consumers. It's a ticking bomb
     
  4. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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  5. Andy27168

    Andy27168 Member

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    Hi,
    My understanding of the DPF removal and the new MOT rules, is if it had one from the factory and it has been removed then it will fail. BUT its how the MOT tester will know what was fitted from the factory, as an example my A4 was available with or without a DPF, this info can be gained from the PR codes generated by the chassis number, but I don't think for one minute that the tester will have access to this information for all vehicles unless the logbook format is changed to reflect one being fitted. Then the question would be asked will it only include new cars from a certain date.
    If I was looking for a DPF delete I would be looking at just gutting the DPF canister with the suitable software deletion, then for all intents and purposes it would appear that the filter is still fitted.
    I think the rules they are bringing out recently are an attempt to combat what DVLA perceive as fraud as vehicles now have to be certified as regards to their emissions to qualify for lower road tax, by messing with parts of the system that affect the certified emission levels you are effectively altering and increasing the emission levels, therefore paying cheaper road tax than the changed emission levels would dictate.
    ultimately its your decision but if the DPF system is working, then leave it alone until you have to make the decision about removing it.
     
  6. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    My problem is that some garages state that DPF removal (the direct quote was in the thread that was deleted) complies with MOT which is an outright lie

    If I were to remove DPF before 3rd of Dec 2013, would I still fail MOT? Think so, so it's retrospective :/
     
  7. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    Andy in theory you can still remove the DPF without any signs. However it's still an offence. The government could go after garages (unlikely) but what most likely is that customers who have failed MOT with DPF removed would be very p*** off and that could result in few garages splashing on replacing DPFs because legally they are responsible.
     
  8. leegsi

    leegsi Active Member

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    It's a visual check only.

    If the inside is bashed out then it will pass (That is from the mouth of an mot tester)
     
  9. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    The point is that now it has become an offence and I presume it applies retrospectively. Yes if it has been done properly then most probably you have nothing to worry about. But it definitely put me off from removing it
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  10. Viking

    Viking Bloody Viking...

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    Technically, it isn't an absolute offence. The offence is to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet, not to remove the DPF.
    To be convicted of the offence it would need to be proved that the removal of the DPF caused the vehicle to be non compliant. That would take some doing. The car would need to be retested to the emissions standards (EURO 5) and would need to fail, then it would need to be proved that the removal of the DPF caused this failure. The method of doing this would be way beyond roadside plod checking for a DPF having been removed, and more in the lines of laboratory standard testing procedures.

    So to simplify the procedure, the Government have simply said that if your car has had the DPF removed then it is an MOT fail. No testing to emissions standards needed. And again it's merely a visual check to see if it's still there, not a test of its functionality.
     
  11. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    "But it is an offence to drive a vehicle that has been modified this way, as it will no longer meet the emissions standards the car achieved when it was approved for sale in the UK." - I guess this is open to interpretation. But given what it says in the article it automatically becomes an offence. At least I see it that way
     
  12. Chillout

    Chillout Active Member

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    The whole thing is a bit of a dark area especially when loads of old diesel cars not fitted with DPF and just scrape through emissions tests but I don't see them being classified as offenders.
     
  13. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    It clearly says if DPF has been removed. So doesn't apply to cars where it wasn't originally installed
     
  14. desertstorm

    desertstorm Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User quattro Audi A4 Audi Avant Owner Group TDi

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    My car has a DPF but was built to EU4 Plus emission standards. This is actually marked on the vechicle build plate under the bonnet where the chassis number is and the axle weights.It's a 2008 car so didn't need to be built to EU5.
    I cannot find out what a EU4 Plus emission standard is I suspect it's a VAG thing where they were in between EU4 and EU5 so basically it's an EU4 car with a DPF. So if it has to meet PM (Particulate Matter) levels for EU4 it doesn't need a DPF as it will do that easily as most EU4 cars don't have a DPF. Only cars that are EU5 on need a DPF to meet the emissions standards.


    Karl.
     
  15. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    It clearly states "The vehicle will automatically fail the MOT test if the filter had been fitted as standard but is found to be no longer present."

    I think a fairer approach would be to ask to pay more Road tax, taking into account it looks like it applies retrospectively.

    Saying that a portion of blame should also apply to car manufacturers when in the early days DPFs were quite unreliable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  16. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    "Technically, it isn't an absolute offence. The offemissions s to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet, not to remove the DPF" - technically they could argue that you were defrauding them by not paying the correct amount of road tax, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is at least partially based on the amount of air pollution
     
  17. Viking

    Viking Bloody Viking...

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    They could do many things, most of which would be time and cash consuming. Instead they simply added a visual DPF check to the MOT test to prevent people from removing a DPF and then passing an MOT. Easiest and cheapest way of catching the majority of DPF deletes. In the same way that catalytic converters are managed. It's not an offence to remove a cat, nor is it an offence to drive a car without one fitted, but it's a contravention of Road Traffic regulations if the car doesn't pass the emissions it was designed to do. Note here that we're referring to "Regulations" rather than "Law". There is no Law that says you cannot remove a DPF, but removal of a DPF contravenes the Regulations. Despite many [knowledgeable] people saying "It's against the law!" etc.

    If a test case went to Court for this issue, the charge would be Contravention of Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984, not Removal of a DPF.
     
    ElliotB likes this.
  18. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    Well phrased Viking. However I still don't quite get your point regarding the emissions, when they clearly state the act of driving a car with removed DPF is an offence. Again, nothing on the emissions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  19. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    "This practice has always been illegal, contravening the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulation 61 A as it no longer meets emission standards applied to it when new, but companies continue to advertise the practice" - source MOT test fail for DPF removal | Auto Express, paragraph 5

    I think they rushed with the term illegal though

    Now I think I understand where you're coming from....
     
  20. B5NUT

    B5NUT Well-Known Member VCDS Map User Audi A6

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    I purchased a cheap B5 A4 few years back as I was going to break it, but I ended up running the car for a couple of years. When it went for it's MOT and it scrapped through on the emissions test, and was told it most likely needs a new cat. When I remove the old cat I was surprised to see that the stuffing had been knocked out, but other than that you could not tell. If people have just been hammering out the DPF and putting that back in the car, the only way to notice someone has modified the car would be a visual check of the tail pipes as on a car with DPF they should be fairly clean.

    A visual check is never going to be good enough, DPF cars should be emissions tested to avoid this issue.
     
  21. ElliotB

    ElliotB Member

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    It seems some garages took notice " Can I still insist on removal of the DPF?
    Absolutely! All we need is an authorisation form signing and we can provide this service for you"
     
  22. Viking

    Viking Bloody Viking...

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    The smoke test for a post 2008 car is much tighter then a pre 2008 car which would generally catch all the DPF equipped cars and keep them smoking less than the requirement. I'd expect in the future that the smoke test will be tightened even further as the efficiency and reliability of DPFs is improved. At present though, other than lab analysis I doubt there's any real world means of testing for particulate matter, so a smoke test is realistic. After all, the DPF's main job is to remove carbon & soot (smoke) from the exhaust gas.

    Technology has to keep ahead of the regulations, and at present it is doing so. All this is taken care of by manufacturers and type approval before we ever get our hands on the cars, and they're working into the future looking at the next round of emissions changes due in later this year (Euro 6) and to come into force early next year. As technology moves forward, the regulations catch up, and vice versa. But it's a slow process.
     
  23. hollow

    hollow Well-Known Member

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    the equipment used in a standard mot station for a diesel smoke test is old technology and be quite easily be fooled with a 10 p biro pen .

    and is the same test wether it is pre or post 2008 .
     

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