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DIY Stage 1 Map ?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by A3 T, Jul 24, 2011.

  1. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    Before i start, i just want to say that I've always been against diy mapping and loading free/cheap files obtained from the internet but.....



    I got talking to a fellow a3 owner today and mentioned that i was thinking about getting my car remapped. he said (as most of you guys have) that i wouldn't regret it and how it completely unlock the power of the car.



    He then went on to say that he did his one himself, I gave him my views on diy remapping but he explained that he didn't just buy as lead and download i file off the internet.



    What he said he did was.... he bought a lead for about £30 that he used to read and save the files on the ecu. he then sent these files to a professional car remap company that tuned the files and sent them back to him. All he had to do then was load the tuned files back on to the ecu.



    He said the good thing is that he can still load his original files (as well as the tuned files) whenever he wants.



    I know this wouldn't be good if you wanted a custom stage-1/2 map but would this be good for someone that was just going for a generic stage 1 ?



    I mean there's been a few posts about people send their ecu’s off to get remapped so surely this you be the same sort of thing and you would still have your original files should things go wrong?





    What do you guys think ?
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  2. sportquattro
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    sportquattro Member

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    Personally I wouldnt touch it with a barge pole for fear of inadvertantly lobotomising my cars ECU.
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  3. MUSH
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    MUSH MUSH Developments Ltd.

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    With stage 1 maps being the price they are (£250-300), it hardly seems worth the hassle of trying something else which brings other inherent risks.

    With anything else in life, you get what you pay for, use a good firm and youll not go far wrong
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  4. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Try it...and post the results
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    beanoir and Inertiauk like this.
  5. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    Personally, i'd be willing to give that a go, but i'd want the car run up on a dyno afterwards to ensure everything is in order.
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  6. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    As always thanks for all the replies ;)


    To be honest... I'm still not completely sold on this idea and was just passing on the information.


    On the other hand, I did a bit of digging last night and it seems that more-bhp (and a few other sites) do this service.


    http://www.more-bhp.com/fileservice.html


    I'm also thinking it could be a good idea to buy the cable and use it to back up the original map so you've always got a copy of it and don't need to rely on the tuning company keeping it safe.
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  7. DenCar
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    DenCar Member

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    #7
  8. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Active Member

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    The a3 is a bit rubbish to remap yourself as the me3.8 isn't the easiest to flash. The s3's on the other hand have me7.5 ecu's and are a lot easier to flash and read. Free software which is very reliable is available to down load free and use's a vagcom cable. That's the easy part! Then you need xdf's, tuner pro or winols and a huge amount of knowledge to tune the engine.
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  9. AndyC
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    AndyC Moderator Moderator

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    ITS NOT EASY!
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  10. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    Hmmm....

    Does that mean that a3’s need to be flashed on a bench? As i thought you would just need some sort of galletto lead.


    Also why would you need xdf , tuner pro ...etc ? Wouldn't you only need these if you was tuning the files yourself and not sending the files off to a pro to tune?


    Like i said, I'm still not completely convinced about this method but its got to be worth looking in to ;)

    I know there's always a bit of a risk when trying to flash something yourself as is say flashing your mobile phone or computer bios, but sometimes the risk is worth it....lol

    You would also have to go to a reputable company to have the files tuned and not just download some off the internet of buy some for a couple of quid on ebay....lol
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  11. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    You have an AUM, which should be ME7 anyway.

    I'm more interested in which cable you can buy for 30quid to do the reading and writing though?
    #11
  12. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    galetto 1260 as found on ebay

    however..... most tuners files will not port read as they have altered the memory reported size and port reading will fail telling you to change driver to an incorrect size.

    It can read the stock file tho.. thats the easy bit.
    adjusting the files is the difficult bit.. knowing whats where, its function, and relationship to all the other address locations..

    galletto's on ebay>> galletto 1260 | eBay
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  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    ah cool.

    I didnt know they were that cheap!

    I'd buy one just for a mince around, but i'm on ME3 so probably not much point.
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  14. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Active Member

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    If you have a me7.d then you can use a vagcom cable and nefmoto software. Better than galletto and more reliable. I doubt a tuner is going to send you a remap file though. What's stopping you just selling it on or giving it away?
    #14
  15. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    got a link for nefmoto?
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  16. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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  17. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    thankyou
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  18. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    I think its down to them mapping your original file so it wouldn't be any good to anyone else.



    That nefmoto software looks interesting, I didn't think a normal vag cable was able to read/write (flash) to the ecu.


    I sent more-bhp an email asking them their thoughts on this and they said they would map a file and email it back for £80 .


    Hmmm...
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  19. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    Also....


    How do you know if you have me3.8 or me7.5 ?
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  20. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    If its cable throttle its ME3.8(or maybe 5.9 but they're pretty similar)

    If its DBW but with narrowband lambda its ME7

    If its DBW and Wideband lambda its ME7.5

    AFAIK an AUM is ME7.5
    #20
  21. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    hmmm. Good luck.

    If AUM its me7
    cable throttle AGU's are Me3.x
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  22. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Active Member

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    They can map your original file, but the files aren't specific to your ecu. If some else has the same ecu, part number etc it will map perfectly fine to another ecu, Cloning isn't a problem and that's why I don't think tuners will just sell the files. I may be wrong. At the end of the day you pay a tuner, to load a file, do the tuning and ensure it's done with proffesionalism. You pay for the whole service. Just like getting a garage to fit a new wishbone bush for £70 when it costs £8 from GSF and you fit yourself, it's the service that costs.

    The Vagcom - Nefmoto is very capable of reading and writting to the ECU on the Me7.5 It now has support for Galletto cable as well, but there are still a few issues with it but the Vagcom (£20 from Ebay) works perfectly.

    I would suggest to anyone wanting to experiement with the a kind of flash or DIY tunning get yourself a spare ecu, depending on where you get them from they aren't that expensive £50-£200 because it's very easy to brick your ECU and then you're stuck. If you do this then you'll probably need vagtacho as well to reset the immo when you install the ecu.



    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
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  23. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    Thanks mate you've been very informative ;)


    I'm surprised that people aren't just getting their cars remapped then upload their map for others to put on their cars :faint:


    Wouldn't the files need to be edited in some way to pair up with the car?
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  24. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Active Member

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    Look on ebay and you'll see people offering copies of their maps!
    No, the pairing is done by the immo chip on the ecu, it's seperate to the flash memory which stores the map.
    #24
  25. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    Just bare in mind, get it wrong and you will damage the engine.
    best advise is take it to somewhere who knows the car, can pre-diagnose car for faults, ideally have a dyno to confirm logs whilst doing power run, then get them to install their map, and revalidate.

    I see many "cheap" maps, and jeeses they are very bad for the engine.. Typical example, lots of boost, no change to fueling request, runs too lean too hot, and engine/turbo wear is greatly accelerated and damage WILL occur.. Lean brings on egt protection soon, killing power, causes high timing pull (I have seen 9's and 12's pulled!!!)

    Ask yourself the question, is it worth it? Your call, but balance risk with cost...
    #25
  26. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    I've actually just been offered a map from someone (for free) that has copied a map they had done professionally.


    I'm still not sure i have the bottle to do it .....lol


    Wouldn't it be recommended for everyone that has had a remap done, to make a back up of it ?


    I'm sure I've read a few posts where people have taken their car to audi and they have updated the ecu.
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  27. rich4130
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    rich4130 Member

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    How do these programs deal with the checksum correction (if required?)
    I have access to a large well know S3 map file but not sure how this will work??
    #27
  28. Chlippo
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    Chlippo Member

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    I do have the galletto 1260 and another similar tool called KWP 2000 plus, and i am planning on remapping my AMK S3 myself.
    But in order to do this (i already have some experience with turbo cars tuning) i will install a wideband to check afr and a boost gauge and i suppose i should be ok with that!

    i am planning to do this since i couldnt find anyone to do a custom map for me. I may dyno the car before and after if i have enough time, if not i will check the air data at the air mass, afr and boost before and after.
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  29. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    Something else has just popped into my head.......lol


    Why would more-bhp want my original file if they just need to send me their generic one (why not just ask me the ecu part number/car...etc)?

    #29
  30. sportquattro
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    sportquattro Member

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    Given the potential for it all going very bad if you get it wrong, and the relatively low cost of tried and tested remaps, why would anyone want to try and remap their own car DIY. Dont get me wrong, I think it's a ballsy move and Im just curious as to why they choose that route over a known remap. if you do do it, do post the resuslts
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  31. SiGainey
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    SiGainey Member

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    Group buy on a file anyone?
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  32. S3Lol
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    S3Lol Member

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    lol. It will be a group buy for new ECU's next
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  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    As with anything, it needs done with some forethaught and common sense. If you breinge in, flash on some free map you found in some forum then proceed to blindly rag the car around without checking anything you're at a high risk of melting something. You also need to have a fair understanding of the flashing process, what options are available to recover if something goes wrong etc. This means reading, research, more reading, more research etcetc.

    Its no different to doing any work on your car, be it replacing some brake pads or repainting the entire shell. Before you do the job you need to understand whats going on, what checks need to be made etc. If you cant do this, either because you dont understand it or because you cant be bothered, thats when things go wrong.

    more-bhp probably want your old file to ensure they provide you with the correct one in return.

    Bill makes many valid points, and i would without a doubt have my car booked in for a dyno session after flashing on some cheap/free map to ensure everythings right. At least then, you can reflash the original safe map and find another, or get back onto the company that sold you the file, if it turns out to be dangerous.

    I really like the idea of nefmoto and its forum. I dislike the cloaks, daggers and secret handshakes that seem to revolve around the tuning industry, and that forum is in effect the polar opposite of this. There are clearly some guys on there who know what they're doing, and tuned files posted seem to have a reasonable critique from other members so you can be somewhat more confident they're not ****, than just finding some random post.

    There is a 1.8T k03s map on there which seems to be fine, however you'd need to check its compatible with your ECU before trying it. The thread does say the two ECU codes its compatible with.

    Getting more advanced, you can use various software to compare the cars original flash, with one of the "good" tuned maps, and start to build up an idea of what they have changed, what each table does and why you want to change it.
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  34. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    Since making this thread I've been doing a load of research and from what i gather....


    The flashing the reading / writing the ecu is pritty straght forward and shouldn't go wrong if you follow the steps and make a “good checked” backup of the original map.
    Having said that, I'm a computer tech and also do a bit of programming, I always hate it if someone wants me to modify any firmware and there's always that thought in the back of my mind that it could go wrong....lol

    It seems that its more the tuned map file you need to be worried about as they could make the car over boost, run lean.....etc

    Its all about trust... If say badger (for example) said he had a tuned file that could be loaded onto an ecu using a vag cable everyone would want one......lol
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  35. S3quatt
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    S3quatt Flat Oot like a ducks Foot

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    Out of curiosity here, what kind of warranty / guarantee do the likes of More bhp give that you wont blow your engine?

    Another thing, I know a guy in my area who had it done on the cheap by someone who supposedly knew what he was doing, & he ended up with 2 blown turbo's (Took the 2nd one before he thought it might be the map) My view is, at least if you go with a reliable & established tuner then you should have some come back...
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  36. TDIQ
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    TDIQ 8L > 8P > 8V

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    Is it possible to read a modified map off an ECU then flash it onto a different car?

    #36
  37. SiGainey
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    SiGainey Member

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    I don't think you get a guarantee that you won't blow your engine from any tuner unless they are doing a full build on it, very unlikely for just a remap on an unknown engine...
    #37
  38. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    This is why you get what you pay for.
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  39. A3 T
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    A3 T Lord Of The Rings

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    As SiGainey said i don't think you get a guarantee from turbo’s blowing up whenever you go.

    It would be like the postal service only you would be doing it yourself.

    Steve bain went for their postal service but has stopped reply to his thread , i also sent him a pm and he didn't reply so maybe it all went tits up :(

    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/121637-sending-my-ecu-off-post.html




    Yes mate ;)



    A bit off topic but....

    What sort of bhp should you get from a 150hp aum engine with a ko3S turbo after a stage 1 remap?
    #39
  40. Chlippo
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    Chlippo Member

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    i was reading and doing some research about the galetto tool and i am wondering if it allows me to custom tune a map or it just allows me to flash an already done map.
    The reason after this is that i dont want to load a generic (stage 1 or 2) map, my goal is to have a custom map done to suit the mods on my car.
    Which means i will have an afr gauge, boost gauge and will do the tuning on a dyno
    In Lebanon i didnt find any reputable shop that is able to custom tune a map, so i might try to do it myself with help of some professional Mitsubishi evo tuners. so it is a question of tools now

    maybe badger 5 got an answer on this....
    #40

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