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Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by CJP80, Feb 3, 2008.
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been there, done that, got the telemetry print out
have to agree with your points (esp the tyre pressure) although I do find the fuel level makes a big difference to mine - maybe because I have the long range tank and it can be anywhere between 10l and 92l on the front of the car
2/3 full is for me the sweet spot
Could be that mine is the '4' that it makes less difference?
Also, mine is on the optional 'lowered and uprated suspension' and very light wheels which does change the balance a bit.
But tyre pressures certainly make more of a difference than fuel load.
It's awful on the Porsche suggested tyre pressures - far too hard and fidgetty!
In your case...92 litres is an awful lot of fuel....and an awful lot of weight.
93, 96 or 97?
plus you have a rather heavy diff up front...
96. Pic in the sig...
C4S, Aerokit, GT3 style wheels etc...
I think the extra weight of the diff means the front is less likely to be affected by fuel load - less variation....and a smaller tank to the LHD cars too.
work lap top filters out the pics
If you are interested.
no good - working off 3G
will have a look when I'm home tomorrow night
A friend of mine bought a Z4M a couple of weeks ago, only had a ride as a passenger. He was also saying about the kangaroo effect and getting used to the clutch. I can't give a fair opinion as a passenger although the straight six did sound nice.
He later followed me in my GIAC mapped S3 on some fast/twisty roads. It was a full on drive and to my suprise i pulled away. I honestly expected the Z4M to kick my ass, probably would on a track??
my brother-in-law just bought a Z4M last week. Used with low mileage and in pretty good nick. He took me for a spin and it did sound nice, and I thought it pulled quite well. Arent they around 350bhp? It felt quite quick but sometimes its hard to tell, as having the wind in your hair can make it feel quicker than it is....
I like the looks and it definitely sounded nice and handled ok... he really likes it...
I think Porsche actually took a backward step with the interior of the Cayman and new Boxster - I prefered my old Boxsters interior.
Anyway back to the question, Cayman S every day of the week, at that money the Audi for me wouldnt get a look in - the Audi will be a good car, but it will never be for me an equal to the Cayman.
My first Mk1 TT was faster than my first Boxster in a straight sprint, but even with suspension tweaks it wasnt half as much of a pleaure to drive as the porka, and having owned a new S3 and recently tried a Cayman for a few days, I wouldnt hesitate to go back to Porsche - problem for me is that the Porsche just is lackign 2 important points - somewhere for the nippers to sit
*cough cough* 996?
Cayman money gets you a nice example...
Yeah - I had a drive a few months back - Silverstone had a lovely Red 996 with aerokit - couldnt get my kiddy seats in tho (theyre 2 and 3) - I have looked
Just driven the Cayman S......
I'll do a full review later.
If I were to sell my car, what kind of money do you think I'd get for it?
Spec is below, mileage is 24K. The car has FASH and has NO damage...
Read this all the way and there is some b@llocks being talked.
What no one has mentioned is the british weather, last year i had a Cayman S for 24hr on test, it was raining and hard to keep the thing in a straight line. Even with all the aids swtiched on i did'nt fell comfortable driving it hard to such a fact that after the 24hrs i could still drive a set route quicker in my "modded" TTMK1 V6. Just because you can get the power down.
The Cayman is a great fun drivers car, but i feel you can only use it 50% of the time when its a nice fine dry day.
The TT-S based on a revised S3 engine (which i now have) and an excellent chasis in the new TT MK2. No-one i doubt has driven the TT-S so how can one compare that the cayman will be a better drivers car. As for a sneaky re-map and seeing over 320bhp i suspect it will show a cayman a good run for its money. I certainly can in the S3 even against M5's M3's 911's espcically on a fine damp morning.
For my money get the TT-S much more fun and at least it will never be the "poor mans Porsche"
My old man told me, always by the top of the range model, the TT-S for now and get the TT-RS in a few years.
Buy the Cayman and you'll wish you had the 911.
Whatever you decide enjoy.
I want some of what you've been having!!
I was driving down the M3 the other day and over took a fezza 430, OMG I was shocked, who would have thought it, my car is actually faster than a ferrari!!!!
And then imagine my shock and delight when I was at a set of lights in southampton a few days later and next to me was a porka 997 turbo, you'll never believe this, we both pulled away and I pulled out a few cars lengths lead.
About 300 yards later he managed to get in front, that was only because I happen to spot Keira Knightley, she was thumbing a litf. Being the nice chap that I am I dropped her off at the station so she could make the bafta's
Well it's funny you should say that...
After I had dropped Kiera off at the station the traffic had built up. So I drove down the end of the station car park. Fortunately I had recharged the Flux capicitor before I set of that morning, Doc was waiting for me back in 1872, I knew I could meet him for a coffee and still be on time for work. Best off all I would miss the rush hour.
All i can say on this topic is, I am used to track driving, and after being taken for some laps on a Boxster (similar chassis as the cayman) I was SHOCKED for the handling, real GRIP. I now own a S3 and talked my dad into buying a TT (with the magnetic ride) and I am sure neither of our cars has that level of grip.
Also, OEM, the cayman SPANKS me drag racing, but a remap can take care of that.
Design-wise, both cars are lovely but you need to get a cayman with 19 inch wheels.....
Lovin it, He ! He ! He !
S3 is good but not even close to M5 territory, come on, been there and got whalloped.
Excellent...an unbiased comment.
Sure, you can map an S3/TT up to be faster in a straight line, but it will never have the inbuilt grip that a ground up Sportscar like the Boxster/Cayman has.
Come on CJP80...
Where are you?
You've just driven it...it's your hard earned at stake...what's the craic?
FEW cars has given me that "sphinter-pressing" sensation as we approached a fast speed turn at the end of the straight.....really....the driver was really capable (he now owns my beloved EVO VI ), but it was really a tight ride.....
Similar feeling as taken a fast lap on a 997 carrera S....it is plain different.....
TT-S has a revised S3 engine?
Thought it was exactly the same, all the specs and info I have seen on it state its the exact same engine.
Wonder if the same marketing ploy is being used like the Mk 1 TT and S3 where the S power was 'slightly' down on the TT then strangely enough after the TT had been out a while the S3 came out with the same power.
People who have had their new S3's on the rolling road have reported standard power of 272bhp or around that....
Yeah...much of it by you, it appears.
...and many years ago I had a standard Boxster S pull out in front of me on a soaking wet morning, on a wet road, through greasy leaves and overhung with trees.
I was in my very well modified 8L S3 (with 275+ BHP and 330+ lb-ft) and I though...i'll have you!
Never saw him again...
He out cornered, out braked and generally out drove me...on a pissing wet day, in a standard Boxster...and me with 15 years worth of trackday and competition driving under my belt.
I had the ESP holding me back...so I turned it off...and almost binned it...as he drove away.
Real roads, real weather...really hurt!
Indeed it is a fine chassis...but in my view, not as telented as the Porsche...at the end of the day, it's still a Golf underneath.
I'll agree about the M3s and 911s (no experience of M5s).
My old 8L S3 was faster than my 911 out of hairpin tight muddy/slippy corners...all that low down torque helped...but as the speeds went over 50-60, the 911 eats it. I find it hard to believe a heavier 8P/TT would be any different.
I think the Boxster would be the "poor mans Porsche" wouldn't it?
So, "poor mans Porsche" or "hairdressers car"?
There is the advice of a badge snob, if ever I heard it.
What ever happened to buying the 'best car'?
In my experience, the VAG quick cars are fairly easy to get in and find the cornering limits (not suggesting you try it on the road)...but the limit is the car, rather than the drivers bottle.
With the Porsche's I've driven...it's the other way round...I always bottle out before the car lets go of gripping.
My feeling is that a Boxster/Cayman is a more natural feeling car to drive quick...whereas the 911 just feels wrong so often...bobbing and pitching about. Faster perhaps...but only after much learning!
Is it so hard to beleive?
What pulls a car hard out of bends ..... torque! The Z4M stock has only 11ft lbs torque more than a stock S3. Remapped the S3 is only 15/20 bhp less than a Z4M but more torque. Stock, the Z4M on paper is .7 of a second faster 0 to 60, add the extra power to the S3 and drive in conditions that the quattro favours as opposed to Z4M tail stepping out and it does make perfect sense.
As already stated, would probably beat the S3 on the track?? We will know for sure soon as were hoping to do Bedford Autodrome and hopefully the Nurburgring Ring come spring/summer. If i get my ass kicked then i'll say so.
The short answer is yes.
I can only assume all those that seem to think RWD cars always step out at the first sign of a bend haven;t driven one....
But you appear to have missed the point of my post, the biggest advantage any given car can have is the driver.
Loved my old Boxster S and love the look and feel of the Cayman, (I was so clsoe to buying a black Cayman with black wheels a kit a few years ago).
My only critisism of my old Boxster and maybe slightly less so with the Cayman was the proximity of the seats to the steerign wheel. I am a bigish lad, with the sports seats fitted, it was just a little too cramped cockpit wise.
But if you fit in it comfroatably, I would have to go for the Cayman. The TTS looks ike it will be a spectacular car, and probably it will do better on residuals as the Cayman initialy (new model, shorter supply), but A Cayman or 996 would be where my cash went.
If RWD is so bad with grip why is it that in the BTCC the 320 launches itself much harder than the rest of the cars. I realise 4wd might have ultimate sticking ability but half the power is lost in transmitting the power to 4 driven wheels.
Apologies in advance, I'm an engineering graduate, so lack the eloquence of some of you guys. Let me be more prosaic.
EssThree...couldn't agree more...you obviously have lots of experience driving these cars at speed.
Ok, here goes. My S3 is 330hp and 450 odd NM. I know for a fact that it would hit 100mph in less time than the Cayman S, albeit tenths of a second. All this pales into insignificance when you get behind the wheel of the Cayman for the first few miles however. The steering feel, balance, brake feel, turn in, control surfaces, build quality, noise...all another level together.
I drove the normal test route around my area - Hallster can testify that these are some of the best roads in the area, with a good mixture of motorway and twisty well surfaced B roads.
The car was simply awesome, surprisingly confidence inspiring and far more enjoyable than my S3. It was leagues better than the Z4M; the clutch felt well weighted and the throttle response was spot on. The engine was really sweet all the way up to the limiter and on the corners, I felt like I could adjust the cars position using the throttle. The S3 is a great car, but at the limit you can feel the forces really stressing the chassis. I think this is why people have to replace tyres so often. In enthusiastic driving the S3 feels front driven and understeers a bit before the rear comes alive and straightens the car out. If driven beyond this limit the car will slide even with 4wd. If only you could properly disengage the ESP and EDL. In the CS you can sit on that limit and sustain a higher speed whilst the smile on your face widens, all this whilst the front wheels are telling you exactly where the car is on the road. As a result, I personally feel I'd be able to drive the CS faster than my own S3 on the track.
I have driven a 997 C4S which was really impressive. For those of you who say the CS is a poor mans 911. I completely disagree. For the price of a new CS you can get a good used 911, true, but I think a used CS still has its place within the range. When I was in the dealers there was a fellow trading in 996 911CS for a new Cayman S!
As a final note, and probably a good summing up for those who think power and torque will make up for handling inadequacies. I can honestly say the CS was a better drive at 50mph round a corner than my car is at 70mph on the same corner. I'm still a 4wd advocate, but it's better to be pushed all of the time than pulled 95% of it in normal driving.
Slightly off topic...but I'm the same.
I really wanted the Sport Seats...but don't fit (6'3" and about 18st) as the shoulder bolsters were preventing my back from being supported due to the size of my shoulders...the answer was Standard seats.
Doesn't 'look' as good...but supports better.
And at the end of the day...what's a seat for? To sit in and be comfortable...or to look pretty?
I agree on the legroom too...I believe the 911s have an extra 1-2" of legroom over a Boxster/Cayman. Probably because they don't have the engine just behind the seats.
That's a good unbiased write up...
Of course, now people will tell you that an S3 isn't a TTS...and that a car based on the exact same chassis with the engine in the same place, same suspension pick up points etc may drive completely differently...and in some magical way be so much more than a 'S' rework of a TT (which lets be honest, is already a damn good car to drive!).
But...I'm pleased you'd enjoyed the drive...that's the important bit.
They may do, but unless it has a new Haldex system, I doubt the suspension tweaks will transform the cars dynamics and maintain a comfortable drive.
The Cayman's suspension was more cosseting than my car and my fuel economy on the drive was an S3 beating 24mpg, which really surprised me!
I wouldn't bank on getting that all the time...
Once you get used to the sweet spot where VarioRam and VarioCam are in full flow (5200 rising on mine) it's hard not to use it every gear.
I get about 18-20 MPG average from the 3.6...
16.x if sitting in stop start traffic...whereas it was doing 18.9 flat out, lapping the 'ring all day long.
What would you rather be doing to use the fuel?
Revving it hard...or sitting in traffic?
Regardless..my 8L S3 was averaging 20-22....
I'll suffer the drop, methinks.
Couldnt agree more,one particular drive had a little fun with some one (cant even remember the make of car) but I was comfortably sat behind him not really trying but he was all over the road and if pushed Im fairly sure of the outcome so I backed off (guess he was down the pub that night telling everyone how fast his car was)
You have to consider not only the driver, but the road conditions...and any form of traction control/stability management too.
A RWD car with a very good stability management system can be driven very quickly by a complete fool, and still make good progress...of course, there is a finite limit where the physics wins over the electronics...the result being a big accident.
I remember following an Exige in my 8L S3...on a really fowl day...I too sat behind him at a decent pace...until suddenly it all went a bit Pete Tong in front...and his pace halved.
RWD is great, if you have the chassis, the driver skill and to some degree, the electronics to help you out if you are a bit ham-fisted.
4WD is much easier to achieve a cracking pace, with less of the brown trouser moments.
I don't think there is a finite set of rules that says ony one drive layout / engine placement is significantly 'better' or 'quicker' than the other.
Too many variables...
The roads around here are really good. Lots of hills as well and long sweeping corners.
This has been a really enjoyable post...
So Chris, when does it arrive?
you're absoultely right - only most of the ****** is in your post
so, you had problems putting power down yet still drove it hard in poor conditions? you either must have great confidence in your ability to modulate of the stoppers or are terminally thick
here's a quick tip for you - a mid engined car will generally handle better than a front engined car unless you are a god-like figure who can defy the laws of physics
with respect to using a car only 50% of the time - again ******
I've driven my 911 RS from London to Warendorf in Germany and back in blizzard conditions on regular tyres - not one problem, not one sideways moment, I even topped 160 on the autobahn (when it stopped snowing) and had a great weekend
you don't need traction control, ESP, 4WD, TC, blah blah blah - just read the road topography, consider the conditions and drive accordingly
you never know - you might enjoy working harder behind the wheel