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Differences with my new gearbox

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by OutLore, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. OutLore

    OutLore VOIP Dude

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    As you may know, I have recently had a new DSG box fitted to my car, and there appears to be some subtle differences - wonder if they have changed the design of it a little for 2006?

    <ul type="square"> [*]It allows upchanges earlier - I can now change up a gear at a shade under 1400 rpm, dropping the revs to just over 1000 in most gears... I couldn't do that before - I had to wait til 1600 [*]It seems more economical - it's averaging 46ish now and only managed 42 before - but this could be the type of driving i have done over the last 2000 miles [*]it changes into 4th at about 63mph where before it was at 60mph [*]I can hit 6th at about 38mph, where before it wouldn't let me until about 42 [*]"S" will now use 6th after about 10 seconds, it wouldn't go into 6th until it was ready before - and if cruise is on it hits 6th as soon as it can - didnt do that before [*]It doesnt make any weird noises anymore /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bang.gif [/list]

    So, anyone know if the ratios have been changed in the latest model range? Maybe a software change for the control unit or something?

    PS It still changes gear for you in manual mode before you ask /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
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  3. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    As you may know, I have recently had a new DSG box fitted to my car, and there appears to be some subtle differences - wonder if they have changed the design of it a little for 2006?

    <ul type="square"> [*]It allows upchanges earlier - I can now change up a gear at a shade under 1400 rpm, dropping the revs to just over 1000 in most gears... I couldn't do that before - I had to wait til 1600 [*]It seems more economical - it's averaging 46ish now and only managed 42 before - but this could be the type of driving i have done over the last 2000 miles [*]it changes into 4th at about 63mph where before it was at 60mph [*]I can hit 6th at about 38mph, where before it wouldn't let me until about 42 [*]"S" will now use 6th after about 10 seconds, it wouldn't go into 6th until it was ready before - and if cruise is on it hits 6th as soon as it can - didnt do that before [*]It doesnt make any weird noises anymore /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bang.gif [/list]

    So, anyone know if the ratios have been changed in the latest model range? Maybe a software change for the control unit or something?

    PS It still changes gear for you in manual mode before you ask /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The manufacturers will be constantly updating and revising the spec of the kit, responding to engineering changes bought about by warranty claim activity, reductions in cost etc.

    The DSG thing is interesting, it really is no more than a very sophisticated automatic gearbox that the marketing gurus have demanded be fitted with the flippy, flappy paddle things in the vague notion that we are all aspiring F1 drivers.......

    The really sad thing is that some poor mutts were deceived to the point of really believing that DSG was manual gearbox first and automatic second when the reality couldn't be further than the truth, The thing was designed/engineered/manufactured by Borg-Warner who are rather well known for their auto boxes!

    I like the DSG in my TDi a lot, auto transmissions Love engines with lots of torque and the two go really well together.

    I have noticed that in normal D mode it almost short-shifts, changing up early and making maximum use of the available torque. Despite having driven a lot of autos I have never experienced such a blatant use of an engines torque characteristics.

    Stick it in S mode and caution is thrown to the wind - I actually wonder if the electronic throttle becomes more sensitive (Saab do that with their 9-5 Autos) because it becomes noticeably more violent.
     
  4. h5djr

    h5djr Well-Known Member
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    Personally I think I would describe the DSG gearbox the other way round. It's basically a manual gearbox (similar internals etc) with a sopisticated method of automatically changing the gears either by itself from engine, speed and other imputs or by driver intervention.

    Whichever way we describe though, I think it's a wonderful piece of kit that has made my driving experience at whole lot better and more enjoyable.

    I know some other will not agree with me, but that's their choice.
     
  5. Amchlolor

    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Will I...?
    Will I...?

    Naaaaah....

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
     
  6. simonl

    simonl Member

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    Copy &gt; Paste Bowfer.

    I hate DSG because............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/snore.gif
     
  7. little_wing

    little_wing Member

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    Technically I think it's closer to a manual box than a conventional auto - no torque converter, clutches (albeit computer controlled and two of them) etc. but in practice it is an auto box, no two ways about it. So far it's the best compromise I've found - for pushing on a manual would be better and more involving, but when 70% of your driving is slow moving stop/start stuff, the DSG really comes into it's own. It's pretty good for the traffic light drag too (not that I indulge in that sort of childishness anymore of course, ahem... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) This ain't a comprehensive DSG post - there are far too many of them already, but I can see both David's and Bowfer's point of view.
     
  8. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    Boys, it is an Auto with paddles and a lot of hype....poor 'old' Bowfer has explored the weaknesses of the concept to the N'th degree.

    At the end of the day the DSG changes gear when it decides to and not at the whim of the driver - no thraping it into the red line and beyond....this isn't a transmission for the Fangios amongst you...

    It is very good if you have a pipe and slippers though.....(I love it).
     
  9. Japper

    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    It's horses for courses, but if you really wanted the 'ultimate' in involved driving, then why would you buy a diesel ?
     
  10. miketweed

    miketweed Member

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    1 - nil to Japper!
     
  11. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    sorry - I agree with Dave R - there aint no torque convertor so it aint an auto, it has 6 speeds so it aint a CVT, its a manual with auto override

    the fact that it changes up even in manual mode is by the by, thats just software....................

    and its quite a talking point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  12. OutLore

    OutLore VOIP Dude

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    I would class it as a manual gearbox. It does however have an automatic clutch.

    Plus, I forgot something - it "creeps" a lot slower now..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/noidea.gif
     
  13. miketweed

    miketweed Member

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    agree... but modern 'autos' have had multiplate hydraulic-clutches for a few years now.

    What makes the DSG an 'automated manual' is the gear selection mechanism. Its no different to a manual in principle other than it is operated by hyraulics rather than by hand.

    A proper automatic box is completely different to a manual.

    ALSO - this red-line change-up issue is no different to a rev limiter??? If you like to destroy your engine in the hope of going faster, then buy a manual and drive round in 1st gear!
     
  14. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    sorry - I agree with Dave R - there aint no torque convertor so it aint an auto, it has 6 speeds so it aint a CVT, its a manual with auto override

    the fact that it changes up even in manual mode is by the by, thats just software....................

    and its quite a talking point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The Audi A4 Multitronic is a CVT, and it has '6 speeds', in 'manual mode'.

    So having a fluid flywheel (i.e. torque convertor) is your definition of an auto?

    That is an interesting concept!
     
  15. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    agree... but modern 'autos' have had multiplate hydraulic-clutches for a few years now.

    What makes the DSG an 'automated manual' is the gear selection mechanism. Its no different to a manual in principle other than it is operated by hyraulics rather than by hand.

    A proper automatic box is completely different to a manual.

    ALSO - this red-line change-up issue is no different to a rev limiter??? If you like to destroy your engine in the hope of going faster, then buy a manual and drive round in 1st gear!

    [/ QUOTE ]



    I'd agree with most of that except that DSG is really the other way around in that it is an Auto with a manual option (with caveats attached).

    Don't get taken in with the marketing hype - it worked as we all paid an extra £1400 for the experience....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
     
  16. h5djr

    h5djr Well-Known Member
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    I don't think anyone has been 'taken in' by the marketing hype. We've tried the DSG, liked it and been prepared to pay the £1400 for it. I personally think it's the best option I've ever paid for on any car I purchased.

    Having also driven an A4 with it's 'multi-tronic CVT version of a 'no driver operated clutch' gearbox I must say I find the DSG a much better option.
     
  17. mikep

    mikep Member

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    In diesels there's no point in thrapping it to the red line, the best change point is around 3250-3500 to make the best of the torque.

    I tend to use the manual mode to make the most of the engines characteristics, when I feel the need for speed, the rest of the time is 'just work it out for yourself'.

    That's why I think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

    But be in no doubt, it is a manual gearbox.......

    continue discussing.........
     
  18. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I don't think anyone has been 'taken in' by the marketing hype. We've tried the DSG, liked it and been prepared to pay the £1400 for it. I personally think it's the best option I've ever paid for on any car I purchased.

    Having also driven an A4 with it's 'multi-tronic CVT version of a 'no driver operated clutch' gearbox I must say I find the DSG a much better option.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'd challenge the 'taken in' bit, as there really are people out there that think that the DSG is an evolution of a manual gearbox....

    As for Multitronic vs DSG, the DSG wins, absolutely no contest. DSG is every bit as smooth as the CVT Multitronic either in full auto or 'manual mode'.

    The implementation of the multi-plate clutch instead of a torque convertor on DSG is much better than the Multitronic one too.

    The Multitronic clutch arrangement seemed to have a heart-stopping delay when trying to set off briskly (i.e. exploiting a gap in the traffic), maybe only half a second or so but just enough to be a tad worrying.
     
  19. I used to think the flappers were great, but after getting my hands knotted a few times while manuvering tight corners / trafic lights, etc, ive switched to the gear lever gear change and just use one hand on the steering wheel.

    Works very well and does everything a manual would do but smoother and a bit quicker ( unless you change down instead of up when the computer thinks that you should be changing up) then it takes what seems like a age to change gear, which is normally when i just pull out onto a roundabout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    apart form that idd never go back to a manual in a Audi EVER !!
     
  20. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I used to think the flappers were great, but after getting my hands knotted a few times while manuvering tight corners / trafic lights, etc, ive switched to the gear lever gear change and just use one hand on the steering wheel.

    Works very well and does everything a manual would do but smoother and a bit quicker ( unless you change down instead of up when the computer thinks that you should be changing up) then it takes what seems like a age to change gear, which is normally when i just pull out onto a roundabout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    apart form that idd never go back to a manual in a Audi EVER !!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Once you get your head around the two pedal world of driving - and learn to enjoy the experience having a manual gearbox again sucks.
     
  21. Amchlolor

    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Firstly,diesel's are attractive for tax purposes.
    Secondly,speaking as someone who was 'taken in' by marketing talk and press reports,I thought DSG would be a manual box with the option of sticking it into auto when the mood,or traffic,dictates.
    In reality,it's no more than an automatic with a begrudged nod towards manual gearchanging,within very strict parameters.
    Like Audi said "yeah,you can play with the gears to impress your mates,but we'll still decide when you change up and down".

    Having sampled the 2.0tdi engine in a proper manual (A4 and Golf),I think the engine is actually spoiled by the DSG's fussiness.

    Honestly,I couldn't believe how much better the engine was in a manual.One could use the full rev range (low and high) without umpteen computer-decided gearchanges taking place.
     
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  23. simonl

    simonl Member

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    So when you insure your DSG cars, do you put them down as manuals or autos?
     
  24. mandyray

    mandyray Member

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    I'm sorry but (technicalities aside), DSG = auto. FACT! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif
     
  25. tiptonjuk

    tiptonjuk Member

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    I have to agree with Bowfer, I'm on my second DSG now, and I'm really craving a manual again, so much so that I'm thinking of P/X ing mine in for an A3 TDI Quattro S/Line. So if anyone wants a 6 month old Red A3 2.0Tdi S/line give me a shout.
     
  26. h5djr

    h5djr Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps we should change the definitions - WITH driver operated clutch or WITHOUT driver operated clutch.

    In conversation with my salesman the other day he said they have now been told to register DSG cars as Manual ! Mine certainly has Auto on the V5.

    Also I assume you can drive a DSG car with a Drving Test pass for Category B Auto where as for a Manual you need a pass for Category B.

    Perhaps the best way is to call the DSG a DSG and a Manual a Manual and leave it at that.
     
  27. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Perhaps we should change the definitions - WITH driver operated clutch or WITHOUT driver operated clutch.

    In conversation with my salesman the other day he said they have now been told to register DSG cars as Manual ! Mine certainly has Auto on the V5.

    Also I assume you can drive a DSG car with a Drving Test pass for Category B Auto where as for a Manual you need a pass for Category B.

    Perhaps the best way is to call the DSG a DSG and a Manual a Manual and leave it at that.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep, I'll go for that David
     
  28. simonl

    simonl Member

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    I'm getting a DSG and loved it, but i don't get it.
    It hasn't got a manual clutch, so how in gods name can it be a manual.

    I'm sure all the manuafacturers have amazing new and different gearboxes, but what defines a manual car is having 3 pedals not two.

    If it was a true manual then why don't audi offer a true auto option as well as DSG. They don't because DSG is an auto, if i want it to i can make it change gear without doing anything, if that isn't auto, what is?
     
  29. Eeef

    Eeef Lord of War

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    [ QUOTE ]
    but what defines a manual car is having 3 pedals not two.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Schuey drives an auto?
     
  30. beaker

    beaker Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    Stick it in S mode and caution is thrown to the wind - I actually wonder if the electronic throttle becomes more sensitive (Saab do that with their 9-5 Autos) because it becomes noticeably more violent.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    S mode seems to affect 3 things, the point of change, throttle response and also the steering which seems to loosen up a little. Is this right or am I nuts?
     
  31. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    sorry - I agree with Dave R - there aint no torque convertor so it aint an auto, it has 6 speeds so it aint a CVT, its a manual with auto override

    the fact that it changes up even in manual mode is by the by, thats just software....................

    and its quite a talking point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The Audi A4 Multitronic is a CVT, and it has '6 speeds', in 'manual mode'.

    So having a fluid flywheel (i.e. torque convertor) is your definition of an auto?

    That is an interesting concept!

    [/ QUOTE ]
    So you're saying the CVT has 6 individual gears?!?!!?!?!?
     
  32. miketweed

    miketweed Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    If it was a true manual then why don't audi offer a true auto option as well as DSG. They don't because DSG is an auto.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No one has said DSG is a true manual, have they? But of course it satisfyies the 'auto' vehicle option because it does everything anyone would want of an auto box.

    It's the 'Third Way' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


     
  33. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    So you're saying the CVT has 6 individual gears?!?!!?!?!?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Did I say 'gears' in my response Matt?

    Er no.

    The Multitronic in my A4 Cab, in manual mode displayed the numbers 1 through 6 in the DIS. In effect it had 6 synthetic shift positions. Utter nonsense of course because the multitronic is a CVT - but hey you know some people really buy automatics and miss stirring 5 or 6 oily cogs via a stick protruding from the floor.....it even had the buttons on the steering wheel too.

    Aside from the slight disconcerting delay when pulling away the CVT was very good, and incredibly smooth.

    If you have never driven one before then the experience was kind of weird, especially when accelerating hard as the engine revs would remain constant (often at wherever peak torque was) and the car would just get faster. The CVT was capable of giving the 1.8t good fuel economy - it wasn't hard to see 40mpg plus on the motorway and that ain't bad for a car weighing close to two tonnes.
     
  34. miketweed

    miketweed Member

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    My mom used to have a Ford Ka 1.25 CVT.

    We used to call it the 4 wheeled moped, as it sounded just like a singled geared twist-and-go moped!

    rrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
     
  35. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    Cosmic - Not driven one myself, the ex had one for a couple of weeksn when her A4 was being fixed, it did feel a bit strange to say the least!
     
  36. cosmicblue

    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Cosmic - Not driven one myself, the ex had one for a couple of weeksn when her A4 was being fixed, it did feel a bit strange to say the least!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Having an 'Ex' is part of life isn't it?
     
  37. bacardi

    bacardi Active Member

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    aye, and it makes life fun, specially when they are as stable as the ones I know

    did manage to get her to spend over 30k on a 1.8T sport though, that was an option's list and a half!
     
  38. OutLore

    OutLore VOIP Dude

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Having an 'Ex' is part of life isn't it?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Only one? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     

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