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Difference between 200 & 250bhp in the real world

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Kaibo, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Hi, what would the actual difference be between a remap offering say 200bhp (leaving car on stock parts) and a K04 upgrade giving 250bhp (with all necessary parts uprated), the difference im guessing between paying £300 and £1000, im talking real road driving and not drag strip bragging, it is worth the expense?

    Cheers Kai
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  3. jojo
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    jojo Looking for Boost! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Are you asking the difference between a mapped K03 vs mapped K04?

    The bhp figure can be misleading in some cases, a mapped K04 makes peak torque usually at around 3k revs, and it's this part that makes the car enjoyable in gear than outright revving to the redline whilst on the move.
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  4. sportquattro
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    sportquattro Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Like chalk and cheese a rempped S3 is much more driveable all round than stock and much more fun 25% more power is a big increase and in the real world VERY noticeable
    #3
  5. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Yeah this is exactly what i was asking thank you, so is the extra money worth spending?

    Cheers Kai
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  6. dannyh
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    dannyh Nogaro S3

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    50bhp is a huge diff and its not just the bhp its the torques as well, you will notice the diff, imo always go for more power lol
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  7. jojo
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    jojo Looking for Boost! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    50bhp will be a HUGE difference in a 2wd A3!
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  8. jdas03
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    jdas03 Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    I had a 210 S3 and mapped it up, when i had it on the rolling road it only made 237bhp and about 237 torque as well.
    This isnt a big as the jump you are talking about and i noticed it; as said at 3 and 4k you do feel the difference! As for real world progress i don't know how much difference we are talking, but you can feel the difference.
    #7
  9. dannyh
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    dannyh Nogaro S3

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Massive, my A3 mapped up from 150 - 180ish and its a huge difference,
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  10. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Ok well thats sounds more positive and perhaps worth going the extra mile

    Thanks for all the comments, Kai
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  11. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    It's not as simple as it might sound...
    You'll need
    Turbo
    Exhaust mani
    Downpipe
    S3 injectors
    Mapping to suit
    The your running a k04 on one smic so it'll be a good idea to get a front mount.
    Then the brakes could do with being better
    Labour
    Etc etc

    If I wanted to a k04 fwd vag car, I'd go Leon cupra r...
    #10
    S3Lol likes this.
  12. jojo
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    jojo Looking for Boost! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    This makes a whole lot of sense!
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  13. xs2man
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    xs2man Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Yep, as above. For the cost involved in doing the conversion properly, you'd be better off buying an S3, or a LCR.

    That said, I modded my AGU up to 240 BHP with a k03s, turbo back Miltek, bigger injectors, twin smic's etc... What a difference that made. Extra 90 BHP and extra 130 lbft torque was unbelievable. Obviously old clutch lasted about 5 seconds after mapping, so that needed replaced too.
    #12
  14. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    "copy, paste, forward: Father Christmas" Make a change from socks.
    Thanks for the info, Im not a fan of the cupra, besides that I love my car and the subtleness, I'd love a euro sleeper, I have the base, now to save for the toys. Watch this space.

    Cheers Kai
    #13
  15. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    a ko4'd A3 would be mighty quick for sure, but you certainly won't do it for £1000! Not properly anyway.
    #14
  16. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Hi, if you could spare the time to break this down I'd be much appreciative, I've used the search button for advice but TBH get a little confused, everyone has an opinion, see saw, "get a ko3 hybrid to save you money, rebuild costs negate that option, get a k04 instead yeah but there's a lot more involved".
    Some definitives would be great from people who actually know what they're talking about.

    Cheers Kai
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  17. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    Its just my opinion but don't bother with a ko4, if you havn't already got a ko3s just do that conversion with all the usual toys including fmic 3" DP etc and a proper stage 2 map from someone like r-tech, you should be able to get 240 on friendly dyno, much cheaper, easier and just as enjoyable.... Thats what I'm in the middle of anyway, made more sense! Car drives like a dream
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  18. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 22, 2011]
    240 sounds great but what I'm thinking, the cost to get there, are you reaching the last breath of a k03s, whereas if you spend a bit more, maybe at an inconvenience, you opening up a possibility of up to 300bhp before looking at internals on an AGU, fingers crossed. That's why I don't want to rush into a remap, then only to change parts, turbos etc and need another remap.

    Cheers Kai
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  19. slowcoach3
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    slowcoach3 Active Member

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    There is a HUGE gap between 240 and 300, getting to 240 hasn't cost silly money, 300 and you may as well buy an s3 to handle the power but its not easy in that either.... Others will know more about it than me but I would love 300 in my A3! But without serious investment you'll never see again its not going to happen. If you have plenty of spare cash to throw at it, get CR turbos or similar to hybrid your ko3, if your turbo is in good nick then that'll be 690 quid more if its not, easier to get 270 or a bit over than sticking in a ko4. Its the easier route but nothing is cheap!!!
    #18
  20. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    That's my point, you've just given me 3 options to upgrade and so I'm no less confused than before lol, what I'm after are prices, maybe guestimates but still helpful, this will cost x amount and so on, what has it cost you to get where you are?

    Cheers Kai
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  21. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    In rough and ready terms
    refurbed ko4 £500, make sure they've used proper borg warner parts not crappy chinese copy parts
    Exhaust mani maybe £400 for a JBS one, cheaper for an old oem one
    Downpipe and decat £300
    FMIC and piping £350 and upwards
    Injectors £? I sold my 550cc for like £100 you wont need ones that big
    brakes, Full 4 pot bremos kits can be found for c. £500 second hand
    mapping £300-£500 depending on many different things
    £100 for replacing head gasket and bolts
    £50 for renewing other gaskets and bolts
    Labour???
    Badger 5 TIP & Jetex - £250
    so maybe £2500 plus labour if your not handy with a spanner, if you can find parts second hand you'll get them cheaper.

    Edit: Even then you wont at 300 brake, 280 maybe
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
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  22. xs2man
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    xs2man Member

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    My AGU build costs were approximately as follows:

    K03s Turbo - £200 + fitting
    Miltek Turbo Back Exhaust inc. sports cat - £500 (second hand)
    Twin SMIC set-up - £500 + fitting
    SFS Silicone TIP - £100 (approx)
    Bosch Green top injectors - £240 (approx)
    Green Cotton Panel Filter - £40
    Forge 007p - £85
    N75J - £85

    So, before fitting and mapping that comes to £1750. Then I was £900 for fully custom rolling road remap + testing etc...

    Then there was clutch and flywheel another £400 + fitting (good price on upgraded VR6 clutch / G60 flywheel combo).
    Then coilover suspension, ARB's and of course braking.

    If you want your 150 BHP 1.8T to have 240+ BHP and 280 lbft (like mine did), you pretty much need all that. You can maybe sayve a few hundred quid on the remap, but you are still talking the best part of £3k to do it properly.

    Now, if you just hybrid your k03, you will get more power, but costs will be roughly equivalent. Maybe add another £400 to the turbo price because of hybrid, and your looking closer to 270 BHP.

    If you want to go bigger still, your probably looking at k04 hybrid (no point unless your going to hybrid it too, as without you will make similar power from hybrid k03), add cost of turbo, downpipe, manifold probably, and oil lines etc...

    Now, hybrid k04 will probably see you about 300 BHP, but then you can pretty much add another £1500 or so onto the price of k03s price breakdown as above.

    OR, to go for a GT28RS or something bigger / similar, you will still need to replace all the parts you would have had to for the k04, so the main expense is cost difference of a turbo, so maybe same cost as hybrid k04 rather than standard k04. But then you map it to safe standards of internals, with the option to upgrade internals later, remap, and then get more power.

    Budget is your biggest killer here. I for one would be unlikely to do it again. I spent well over £3k doing up my 1.8T, only to sell it for £3k shortly afterwards as the FWD couldn't handle all the torque. At most, I would consider the exhaust and map on a 1.8T motor. Otherwise your just throwing away money. Now if it were a 2.0T, then its worth doing the k04.
    #21
  23. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid Supporter

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    Great advise there XS..:icon_thumright:
    #22
  24. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    awesome advice above ^^^ there was me thinking I was going to have to type all that out, but XS man has done it for me :p

    The only thing I'd disagree with, is that FWD can't handle the torque, that sounds like a man who's recently bought a quattro to me ;)

    FWD cars CAN handle the torque, however, the reality of it is, you need an LSD to get the most from it.

    My AGU ko3S build costs were very similar to the above as well, over £2k when finished.

    All things CAN be done on a budget, but it really depends how good you are at spotting bargins, and how mechanically minded you are.....

    To throw some light onto the 'budget' end of the spectrum, you COULD do a ko4 for a lot less.

    Typical price on ED38 for a full ko4 setup is £4-500, for that you'll usually get the turbo, manifold, and fluid lines. A second hand silicon TIP would typically be about £50 2nd hand, £30-50 for a VR6 MAF, £100 for some Saab red top injectors, then you just need a downpipe. and exhaust, second hand Cat backs tend to be £150-250, and maybe £150 for a DP/Decat.

    Throw that lot on, and go to one of the cheaper mappers, maybe £400 for a custom map, and you're looking at £1300-1500 all in, for a realistic 250-260bhp.

    THe one advantage of doing something like that, is you're not pushing the ko3S to it's limits. Having done 2 KO3S cars now, I wouldn't try to take one beyond 220bhp again. My daily drive runs 224bhp from a stage 1 map with a Downpipe, and it's brilliant. it just runs and runs and makes great power.
    My track car has a stage 2 ko3S, and HAS previously made 238bhp, but it's absolutely thrashing the balls off the turbo, and a result, it killed it's first turbo, and now, 2 years later, the second turbo is well and truly dying, with the housing being full of HUGE cracks due to the insane heat generated by running it flat out. As a result of this, the turbo is now highly inefficient, and it now makes 208bhp. The last turbo made 238 when first mapped, then when it died power dropped to 197, new turbo bolted on, and power was back above 230, and it's slowly been dropping ever since!

    a 'simple' Ko4 setup, mapped to sensible levels, should be more reliable and less highly strung than a flat out ko3S setup, and in my opinion, it'll be a nicer driving car due to the ko4's ability to hold some boost at the top end of the rev range. Somewhere us ko3S users don't get to explore :(

    I was going to do a ko4 conversion, wanting to try and get 280bhp +, but I realised, going for 280 from a ko4 you're in exactly the same position I am again now, you're running it flat out, on it's limit.

    Instead, I've now got a ko4 Hybrid, and high flow manifold that's previously made 338bhp at 22/23psi. I'm going to run it at a nice calm 18psi, and hopefully net around 300bhp whilst keeping things reliable.

    I think it's worth stating that the use of the car does effect things too: my stage 2 ko3S that keeps killing turbos is on a track car, so it's used VERY hard. The same issues still apply on a road car, but over a MUCH longer time scale I'd think.
    #23
  25. dannyh
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    dannyh Nogaro S3

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    Brilliant write up prawn
    #24
  26. Buzzer
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    Buzzer Member

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    "prawn" you have wAy to much time on your hands!!!
    Friends of mine were at nurburg same weekend as you and enjoyed that write up.
    Keep up the good work( manuscripts)
    #25
  27. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    Sorry folks, I do tend to type a bit too much usually!

    The above only took 10 minutes to type up this morning, whilst sat on the sofa waking up avoiding going to work.

    the ring trip report though, took about 4 days of 3 hour evenings uploading and typing it all!

    If I were to do it all again, I'd definitely get a job lot off a TT, full KO4 setup, and have it mapped to a simple reliable 250ish bhp and enjoy it. For a road car without an LSD, that's plenty.

    eventually, that's what I'll be doing on my daily driver, with the hybrid ko4 on the track car.
    #26
  28. DaveA3
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    DaveA3 Audi A-Trizzle!

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    hmm u guys have given me an idea ill post it instead of high jacking this
    #27
  29. Kaibo
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    Kaibo Member

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    [Sep 23, 2011]
    Ok, il go for a remap next week, if I'm happy enough with that il leave it for a while until I know what I want.

    Cheers Kai
    #28
  30. moredoor
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    moredoor Member

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    [Sep 24, 2011]
    Maybe I missed it, is your A3 an AGU(ko3) or AUM(k03s)?
    I did a mk4 with a k04 setup which more or less ended up the same as a Seat with a k03 Cr hybrid turbo. Cost wise there isn't a lot of diff in it as both setups need, downpipe, injectors, tip. From driving both cars the k04 seems smoother.
    #29

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