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Dane's Hybrid Conversion Thread

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Dane, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  2. Morgan-VAGCHECK
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    Morgan-VAGCHECK Foot to the floor

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    [May 26, 2011]
    Do you have a 118 log you can share Bill ?
  3. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [May 26, 2011]
    This AM at cold startup, our tester tried feeling around the flange for leaks. Nothing. We're looking into seafoaming it. Yeesh.

    I got the PM, Bill.
  4. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 26, 2011]
    msn added doug
  5. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 26, 2011]
    hi morgan
    from yesterdays running, on CR's actuator with preload etc
    Code:
    Group C:	'118			
    	RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
    TIME				
    STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar
    
    29.97	1600	33	70.2	1020
    31.17	1600	30	94.5	1100
    32.27	2000	27	94.5	1170
    33.49	2520	26	94.5	1360
    34.72	3080	26	77.3	1680
    35.92	3600	25	72.5	1950
    37.13	4120	25	73.7	1980
    38.34	4600	26	79.2	2030
    39.52	5080	27	80.8	2050
    40.74	5560	29	89.8	2170
    41.96	6040	30	94.5	2150
    43.06	6440	32	94.5	2070
    44.26	6880	34	94.5	1990
    45.46	7320	36	94.5	2000
    
    to put the above into context.. CR actuator, same setup as above just different logs
    Code:
    '115			
    RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.
    			
     /min	 %	 mbar	 mbar
    
    1560	34.6	1010	1020
    1600	68.4	1540	1010
    1720	79.7	1720	1100
    2240	93.2	2010	1230
    2760	112	2020	1450
    3320	160.9	2000	1980
    3920	173.7	2000	2110
    4440	176.7	2200	2140
    5080	183.5	2370	2180
    5720	191.7	2550	2260
    6240	186.5	2550	2260
    6640	175.9	2550	2190
    7040	172.2	2550	2170
    7360	164.7	2540	2140
    
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  6. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 26, 2011]
    That is the weirdest thing I have seen in a while.... :-/
  7. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 26, 2011]
    What are we looking at, the boost fluctuating up and down?
  8. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 26, 2011]
    I just meant the situation in general. If the actuator cracks open at 14 PSI when pressure tested, and then the car is run with N75 electrically disconnected (meaning actuator pressure), it should see that pressure as tested manually (14 PSI).

    However, the turbo on actuator pressure during load is only making 7.5 PSI.

    Makes no sense AT ALL.
  9. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 26, 2011]
    no.. the map I have started with is speedysteves... which was always bring in boost slowly setup.
    Whats odd on Danes is actuator pressure bares no resemblance to what its set to.. and way too low. (such that I think wastegate is being pushed open by the manifold pressure)
    Wellys ran 12psi actuator pressure, but, true to form the actuator which was sent on Wellys turbo, when it was refurbished, did'nt return with the unit, and some "other" one came back. A 10psi one.. which wont hold more than 8.5psi with a lot of preload added. I have changed it out to forge one which starts to open, hooked onto the turbo in situ @ 14psi.. but when you run the car up it only ran 7.5psi boost..
    :confused:
  10. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [May 26, 2011]
    Has anyone complained to CR about them swapping over perfectly decent actuators for gash weak ones?
  12. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  13. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 26, 2011]
    I will check forge have fitted the spring I asked for... and if its not what I said I wanted I have some on the shelf to swap out..
    its now cold again, so when I swap back of the LCR I am also doing @ same time, I will remove the actuator "again" :cry:
  14. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  15. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 27, 2011]
    I feel your pain....
  16. Morgan-VAGCHECK
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    Morgan-VAGCHECK Foot to the floor

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    [May 27, 2011]
    Hi Bill,

    Hmm you would certainly kinda expect more boost than is being seen with that N75 DC even with the oddly behaving actuator.

    I think you might have hit the nail on the head that the wastegate flapper is being forced open by the exhaust gasses.

    In fact I did experience something similar myself although nowhere near to such a large degree.. at the time I put it down to the tubular manifolds better flow, & also the fact the wastegate had been quiet heavily ported (since previous testing)

    Funnily enough we also had some issues with the CR supplied actuator that was fitted when the thrust bearing was replaced, & I ended up having to get another one from them. Albeit what happened in our case was we would set our desired crack pressure do a couple of runs on the dyno with each run making a little less boost than the previous.

    On checking the actuator the crack pressure had dropped, we added some more pre-load to get back to where we wanted it only for it to drop off again within a few more runs.

    Whether the radiant heat being generated from the sustained tests was having an affect on the spring, or the spring itself wasn't up to much I dunno.. but once swapped for the replacement actuator together with a small heat shield made for it we didn't experience any more more probs.

    For reference with the replacement actuator set to crack at 0.75bar, 1.75bar+ boost was possible at the top end without the N75 DC being anywhere near maxed out.

    Anyway good luck with it, I am sure you will get to the bottom of it.

    Regards
    Morgan
    Last edited: May 27, 2011
  17. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 27, 2011]
    thanks morgan..
    I am hoping I am not going mad..
    actuator was removed and refitted yet again.. oh joys... (the CR one behaved exactly as you describe.. it would be set, and then run less and less......)

    I removed the red spring out of the forge one, which cracked open off the car at 13psi. I have fitted a white spring now, which is beefy, and checked back on the turbo again with preload its cracking open at 18psi... which is way higher than I would ever choose, BUT given the experience up to now that actual boost runs some several psi less than this static test I am hedging my bets.
    Gods knows.

    back on the dyno in a short while.
    cars eh!
  18. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  19. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [May 27, 2011]
    ?

    How is such behavior possible? It seems almost diabolical of a parts maker to do such a thing.
  20. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [May 27, 2011]
    It does need mentioning to them,someone has gained a decent one along the way
  21. Morgan-VAGCHECK
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    Morgan-VAGCHECK Foot to the floor

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    [May 27, 2011]
    Hi,

    I think the actuators CR use "might" be Garret ones, although I am not 100% certain on this.

    When I discussed the actuator behaviour with CR they said it was not an issue any other K04.2x hybrid user had previously reported.

    Regards
    Morgan
  22. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [May 27, 2011]
    Well my thoughts are, I've had to buy a forge actuator, not something I would of had to do if the one supplied was working properly
  23. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 28, 2011]
    I have had this "line" from them also.. Reality is somewhat different to what you get told.

    My Patience has run out.
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  24. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 28, 2011]
    an interesting comparison of Wellys when it ran its best power, vs danes on n75/ecu control, vs actuator disconnected (careful) run.

    wot only applied on the disconnected run at just before 5krpm - note the boost is the same as wellys

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  25. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 28, 2011]
    interesting stuff ahead (for some)
    comparison of a very tweaked forge actuator, white spring, which cracks open at 21psi, vs the previous setting of 18psi (I have added as much preload as it has travel for... and slightly too much - see further)
    [​IMG]

    We have held an additional 1-2psi, now holding 20-21psi where 18psi was what it held earlier. (wastegate is being pushed open is my thought-must be quite some manifold pressure there, acting on the larger surface area of the wastegate penny.. 660mm^2 now from 452mm^2 of a stock exhaust housing)

    Actuator (n75 electrically off) comparisons, with these differing preloads..
    [​IMG]
    note the blue trace has "creep", which is I think because I have used up almost all the forge actuators travel (which is'nt enough imho anyhows compared to other actuators) - Artificially made the effective wastegate hole smaller again, recovered some boost by this also... Hmmmm


    Comparison of earlier in the week MBC on much lower actuator pressure vs the higher pressure its holding of current.
    [​IMG]
  26. Morgan-VAGCHECK
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    Morgan-VAGCHECK Foot to the floor

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    [May 28, 2011]
    Hi Bill,

    I would have personally thought with pressure reference/regulation removed from the actuator, & the white Forge spring boost would be a lot more in that first plot !

    I guess the flapper must be being blown open as you suspect..

    What will be your next steps ?

    Regards
    Morgan
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  27. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 28, 2011]
    well, some more, lot more runs, done during this afternoon.

    my theory: (oh no another one) - backpressure in hotside/manifold is significant, and proportional to the total boost being run... more boost more backpressure, which is why increase preload to a v.high level, and the uncontrolled boost level rises. I did'nt go wot until 5krpm during that run and was trying to just ease some throttle without the turbo letting loose to crazy boost..

    I think the 29mm bored out wastegate is too large also now.. the clip, i am still 50/50 on being the right thing to do. zero surge which was its objective, and only 200rpm slower spool than wellys was.. As to what other side effects its had, I'm not sure. airflow for airflow its pretty close wellys vs danes. One big difference between them is timing. wellys ran a lot more than danes wants to. From car i have seen, largeports always soak up additional timing without cf's going mad over smallports... to the tune of 10 degree difference. 1.5deg added and 5bhp gained on what was a hot run.. as a guide of the margin it makes. (i dont have to tell you this obviously, but for others reading this its maybe of interest)

    ignition and airflow comparisons-water/meth on wellys largeport, none yet on danes smallport-food for thought
    [​IMG]

    more tomorrow.. when wmi is finished & running

    upside, egt's are lovely - nice and low for the power/boost
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  28. MUSH
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    MUSH MUSH Developments Ltd.

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    [May 28, 2011]
    Feeling for yous on this project, who would have thought a k04 would bring so many issues. Testiment to the train of thought that the hybrid k04 is definately a stage 3 setup and just as much if not more of an arse to sort out as a BIG turbo.

    Liking all the info your sharing Bill keep it up and good luck with it all!!
  29. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 28, 2011]
    once sorted, and a lot learnt along the way, their will be a decent place for hybrids.... but they are not simple to extract power of without some side effects. I am sharing this openly so peeps can see the good the bad and the ugly. Some myths and industry turbo supplier BS uncovered along the way.
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  30. Sandip
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    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    [May 28, 2011]
    What kind od egt's are you seeing on Danes Bill?
  31. Morgan-VAGCHECK
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    Morgan-VAGCHECK Foot to the floor

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    [May 29, 2011]
    Hi Bill,

    Thanks for your update, interesting stuff indeed.

    Excellent news the turbine clipping appears to have eliminated any surge occuring, air flow looks very stable in your plot.

    Best of luck with it for todays tweaks.

    Regards
    Morgan
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  32. badger5
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    [May 29, 2011]
    on this boost 840-880
  33. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [May 29, 2011]
    So the water meths on. Some excellent workmanship from Tuffty!

    [​IMG]

    And I can still get to the cd changer

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The nozzle in place

    [​IMG]

    The supply from the tank runs down the passenger side of the car underneath all of the trim panels so it's totally hidden

    And the wiring runs from underneath the steering wheel, along underneath trim again, behind the seat and then across behind the carpet underneath the rear bench and into the boot.

    Currently using the medium size nozzle.
  34. MUSH
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    MUSH MUSH Developments Ltd.

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    [May 29, 2011]
    Take it you get lots of pipe with these kits?

    How much are they going for?

    Think if (most probably WHEN) i get a WMI kit ill endeavour to keep it to the confines of my bay. Probably put the battery in the boot, as a nice battery box looks better than the tank ans pump etc.

    However it does look good though. Has Tufty chopped the lhs trim panel in half? I wouldnt even know as even though ive got an S3, ive only looked in the boot about 3 times!! lol

    Good to see such a good mod though mate keep it up
  35. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [May 29, 2011]
    I think it was £300 ish for the kit including the wiring and pipe work.

    Bill and Tuffty did a WMI setup in a TT from the boot before so they knew it would work well.

    The left hand side panel has been carefully cut in half to make the install easier and easy to live with.
  36. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 29, 2011]
    Is it possible that the wastegate penny simply isnt sealing properly/well enough, so rather than being blown open its just leaking?

    Would explain why with no N75 your only making 7psi when the actuator visibly doesnt crack open until 14?
  37. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [May 30, 2011]
    Love the mod to the CD access panel.... Got a lot of time for that.

    Glad it's installed and sorted now - good work :thumbsup:
  38. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [May 30, 2011]
    righto....... after several very frustrating days...

    a Conclusion, not the conclusion.

    I have just had the car run uncontrolled boost, on its forge actuator on n75 on and n75 off... Removed it and the things sticking!

    youtube sticking video..
    YouTube - ‪sticking-actuator.3gp‬‏


    Whilst flapping the wastegate penny open and shut repeatedly, it became apparent in a "double take" kind of way... that the thing sometimes did'nt close. The Penny is hanging up on the edge of the wastegate hole. The wastegate hole, bored as it is is causing most of the issues we have been suffering, I am convinced of it. The wastegate penny hanging up on the hole is the final bloody straw!

    Sticking penny (sticking slightly open) combined with a now sticking actuator, this things doomed to never work. days of work completely wasted. It has to come off and start over. not a happy bunny with the turbo one bit! CR will have an irate badger on the phone tomorrow, this is beyond a joke.

    :(
  39. Sandip
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    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    [May 30, 2011]
    Sorry to hear the trouble you're having Bill, makes it worse when you spend time on doing things properly to ensure all the work's been done right, only to find that the parts aren't up to scratch!

    Time to make your own Badger5 Actuator?? :)
  40. badger5
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    [May 30, 2011]
    CARS in danes hands again.. so hoping he's enjoying it and rid of the micra for a while
    too add to the rest of the hassles, the n75 seems to have packed in tonight, giving full on boost no matter whether its connected or not.. joys of vag cars.

    sticking actuator, sticking wastegate, expired n75.......... what else eh?

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